justineparis

I am with Tabernash.. if a place is only worth two nights, that means you are only allowing one full day there,in a busy itinerary if a place is only worth one full day , its worth eliminating from schedule to me.

mariojbra

I was thinking to myself and I found out that I´ll get very frustrated if I skip Belgium from this trip.

In this moment, this leads me to one conclusion : If we choose to follow most of the suggestions given here, we have no option but to cut down Nimes

The pros :

- more time in fewer locations. This is good especially in Paris, because gives me more time to do a Loire Tour. Does anybody know the best way to do this with a child?

The cons :

- total costs of hotels+train tickets are about the same as the original itinerary. Maybe because London, Paris and Barcelona has much more expensive hotels than Nimes. Any suggestion of budget train hotels?
- Have to catch an evening 6h train from Paris to Barcelona (but as I said before i still prefer this train than all the burocracy of an airport with a kid). Does anybody knows if the first class seats brings some real advantage that worths 30 euros per seat?
- Do not visit Provence =(

mariojbra

@AZ

I think we are very lucky , because we really didn´t have many problems when we travel with our son , but as I said before, we always respect your mood and needs. Thanks.

justineparis

Paris look up Hotel Saint Pierre. On rue Ecole du Medicine( several hotels have similar names). Its not a train station hotel but I disregard tat importance, its close to metro and rer and cheap taxi to stations. Cheap clean , small rooms, but ac and excellent location to walk to many sites!

skatterfly

Mario, there's another possible scenario, one that I'm shocked I'm even suggesting... but since you've never seen Nimes/Provence and have already seen Lisbon, Paris, London, and Madrid (all of those just in the last year).... would you want to cut time from any of those cities so you don't have to cut Nimes/Provence?

Here are some rhetorical answers for you to consider (though I'm not asking you to seriously answer each one for me):

--Other than landing in Lisboa, do you have to stay so long there? (It kind of looks like you might, because you have some specific items listed already in your itinerary)
--Do you have to go to/stay so long in London? (you don't have a lot of "things" listed yet for those days)
--Do you have to go to/stay so long in Paris? (OMG, I can't believe I just said that because Paris is my absolute favorite city in France. And, actually, I'm guessing you may need all that time, if not an extra day, if you're trying to get to a Chateau, too.)
--Do you have to visit again in Madrid (other than fly from there on your last day?)

Basically... you're at a critical point in your planning that I (probably most of us) always end up at... which is wanting to visit more places than you can in the number of days you're traveling.

This is the point when I sort of mentally make a list of the things I hope to see or experience in each city, and then rank them next to each other.

For example, you had a day in your London itinerary for visiting Windsor. Do you really want to see Windsor more than you want to see Bruges? You have a day in London for just "walking around"... would you rather just "walk around" in London or some cute village in Provence? Are there favorite restaurants in one of those cities you really want to go back to, or a museum you really enjoyed or didn't get to the last time? These are the decisions that may pull you more to one place or another. You may find that you only need 2-3 nights in London (or drop London entirely), or spend less time in Paris (gasp!). Or perhaps drop Madrid. I don't necessarily think a 2-3 day stay *once* in your itinerary is a horrible thing, as long as it's not the pace of the entire trip.

I can really appreciate visiting familiar (and favorite) cities.... I do it all the time... but you sound like you enjoy exploring new places and really getting out and seeing new things. Perhaps you want to give yourself more time for something new? I would maybe narrow down the top few things you want to get out of revisiting London/Paris/Madrid---and try give yourself more time for Bruges and Nimes.

Re: the Loire Valley... I love the Chateaux and the Loire Valley (especially around Chinon, Villandry, and Azay le Rideau), but I can't fathom seeing the Loire Valley without a car because most castles are not near train stations. If your goal is to see a castle or two, you can probably go to Fontainbleu or Vaux le Comte as a day trip from Paris. Or Versailles even, then back in Paris for dinner. But if your goal is to travel around the Loire, I'd recommend a car. And unfortunately, the Loire Valley is not on the TGV route down towards Provence, so if you went to the Loire, you either have to drive onwards to Nimes (changing the entire nature of your trip by train), or travel back up to Paris to get a TGV south to provence.

Sassafrass

Skatterfly, you are giving some great, creative advice to the OP. Since they have been to London, it makes sense to cut that altogether so they can keep Belgium and Provence. They could fly from Lisbon to Amsterdam or Paris or maybe Brussels for Bruges, Ghent, etc.

OP, look at some pictures. For my money, Bruges and places like Les Baux and Avignon beat out some of the Chateaus anytime. As others have pointed out, you could do a day trip or two from Paris for a couple of Chateau, saving more travel, yet keeping some pretty special places.

mariojbra

***would you want to cut time from any of those cities so you don't have to cut Nimes/Provence?***

Yes, off course. But you have to be aware that we have some limitations due to our already booked flight tickets:

1) We have to spend exactly 3 nights in Lisbon
2) We have to fly to London on 01/04
3) We have to take the flight back from Madrid on 21/04.

That being said, now we get to the part when i get confused

I thought that the recommendations were strictly to cut down on moving. Since we don ´t want to miss Belgium or Barcelona, the only option (according to this rule) is to cut down Nimes/Provence, ok?

But... if I understood correctly your last post, it could be also a good choice to reduce some time in London/Paris/Madrid and add some extra time to Nimes/Barcelona, is that correct?

For instance, just to clarify things, this itinerary bellow could be a better choice than the first one?

Lisbon - 3 days
London - 4 days
Belgium - 2 days
Paris - 4 days
Nimes - 4 days
Barcelona - 4 days
Madrid - 2 days

Sassafrass

It does not look as if time in London is reduced, and, since you have been before, that would be my first place to cut.

The problem is, that due to travel time, you do not have that many days in those places.

Examples:
From Lisbon to London, you have getting from hotel to airport, wait time, flight time, getting luggage time, getting settled into hotel. A lot of that day is lost to travel.

From London, you do not get to Bruges until late afternoon. By time you get settled, it will be time for dinner - basically, another day spent mostly traveling. It is simply a night in Bruges, not a day in Belgium.

Earlier, you asked about Arles rather than Aigues Mortes. Such a personal choice and they are so different.

Arles and Aix were originally the focus of our trip to Provence because we love Aix and Arles has the connection to Van Gogh and a wonderful Roman Colosseum and other ruins. It is a slightly bit seedy, but has a nice market, some very good bakeries and shops. Some areas are flat, others hilly, so a good bit of walking. The town has several different areas, one centered around the Colosseum, one around a square with cafes, etc. We rented a little house (where houses seem to be almost holding each other up) right in the town center, so had a feeling of being in a very authentic French town/village.

Aigues Mortes is a small, completely flat, walled city where the crusades began. It has turrets and you could walk the wall. It is arranged in straight blocks and streets. It is surrounded mostly by water areas and salt flats with beautiful birds, horses and bull farms, with authentic cowboys and cowgirls working them. The city, during the day was a bit dull, though we enjoyed relaxing at our hotel within the walls, and was so quiet at night, you wanted to walk softly. We toured the area by boat. I absolutely fell in love with the whole area and would like to return. However, I am older, spent three days there, and did not have a little one with me.

For only a day trip, I would try to do a boat trip in the Aigues Mortes area. If I could not do that, for only a day trip, I would probably visit Arles.

There are carousels in both places to take your little one on.

Read about them. Look at images. Let your own interests determine your choice.

skatterfly

Hi Mario, yes, I see where there could be some confusion.

My initial response (and possibly many other posters here) was that seeing so many cities jammed together sounded a little too much with a toddler. But you have made it clear you want to do it that way, so I've moved on to helping you with those plans.

In general, I like at least 3 nights in a city. Some people say longer. Especially with a small child. But when I said that one short stay wouldn't be so terrible, I simply meant that---given everything you've stated about your travel style and your experience with your child---you could probably try it once (or even twice) during the trip if it were necessary and you would probably all handle it fine.

Now, moving on to the itinerary you just posted... I think you're on the right track, it looks like you gave yourself an extra night in Nimes, but possibly took a day away from Bruges---and didn't take any days away from London.

Since you've already bought your tickets to London, it sounds like you have to go there. Unless... any chance the London tickets are refundable or could be changed to another destination city, such as Paris or Bruges?

It also sounds like you have kept 2 nights in Madrid so you can get in some shopping and see the Royal Palace. I personally would probably take that down to only 1 night in Madrid (and use it simply as a hub for repacking the backs and getting ready to fly home) but only you could know if that would work for you.

If you can't change your London flight, could you take a day away from London, and give it to either Bruges, Paris, or Nimes? Such as:

Lisbon - 3 nights
London - 3 nights
Belgium - 2 nights
Paris - 4 nights
Nimes - 5 nights
Barcelona - 4 nights
Madrid - 2 nights

OR, shuffling those days around a bit:

Lisbon - 3 nights
London - 3 nights
Belgium - 3 nights
Paris - 4 nights
Nimes - 4 nights
Barcelona - 4 nights
Madrid - 2 nights

With a late flight into London, it probably doesn't make a *lot* of sense to only give London 2 nights... BUT... if you're mostly interested in seeing Windsor castle (the only specific thing you had on your original itinerary), have you considered just staying 2 nights in London, outside in say, Windsor? This is certainly less expensive than staying in the center of London. (Or, if you just want to see one royal palace in London, have you seen Hampton Court Palace? Also outside of London.)

If you shortened London to 2 nights, you can see that it gives you lots of breathing room in the middle of the trip, such as:

Lisbon - 3 nights
London/Windsor - 2 nights
Belgium - 3 nights
Paris - 4 nights
Nimes - 5 nights
Barcelona - 4 nights
Madrid - 2 nights

<u>Or, if you could change your London flight to, say, Bruges or even Paris, you could eliminate London altogether and it gives longer times in Paris, Nimes, and Barcelona?</u>
Lisbon - 3 nights
Belgium - 3 nights
Paris - 5 nights
Nimes - 5 nights
Barcelona - 5 nights
Madrid - 2 days

All that said, you can keep parsing the itinerary, give a day here, take a way there, and it's easy to get completely wrapped up in the number of days in each city. But it's a good time to start thinking about what you want from the trip, and what are the top, say, 10 things you want to see? For example, it looks like you're really interested in Castles and Royal Palaces, etc. (At least that's what I'm inferring since that's what was mostly listed in your initial itinerary.) What do *you* want out of the trip? We can keep recommending changes to your itinerary, and urging an extra day here or take away a day there. But we just can't know your priorities and interests. Who knows, maybe you'd rather drop Paris than London? (Gasp... I didn't really say that!)

<b>@Sassafrass </b> Arles was "seedy"? That's so sad to hear. I thought it was charming and totally safe, but that was 15 years ago. From Arles, we took a bus to Les Baux, which was a great walled hill town. But yes, might be hard with a stroller to visit. Maybe with a child in a stroller, Aigues Mort would be easier because it's flat?

<b>Also, Mario... one other thing I just thought about Provence... </b>
I don't know as much about Provence as I know about Paris and the Loire... but I recall that a past poster "Crazyfamilyof4" visited Provence by train and bus with her 2 and 4 year old and she seemed to really enjoy Uzes and Pont du Gard. (She actually did a really "crazy" 6 week trip across Europe)... her trip reports are a hoot... but here's the one that specifically mentions Provence to give you ideas of what to do when there.
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...t-2-france.cfm

There are a ton of great trip reports here from other parents who have visited each of these places with kids. You might (if you haven't already) take a look at those, easy to find with an advanced search.

This can be a really difficult thing to plan, since you're trying to take advantage of the best train prices and then find affordable hotels. Hang in there. All this work will be worth it in the end.

mariojbra

Sassafrass

** It does not look as if time in London is reduced, and, since you have been before, that would be my first place to cut.
The problem is, that due to travel time, you do not have that many days in those places. **

As you have noticed I -try- to avoid long time tranfers between the cities in the schedule (no airports, catch direct trains, "train hotels",etc) but sometimes it is no possible. That´s the case of London.

I bought that flight ticket in a black friday sales and they are non-refundable and non-changeable. And yes, day 01/04 is lost, get to the airport, immigration, train from Gatwick to St Pancras... it ´s going to be a long day... we have to make it worth.

The good thing is that London is a very special city to us. It ´s the first city we visited in Europe. I think we like it as skatterfly likes Paris. It opened a new world for us...

-- How many days do we need in London? --

2 free days at least, preferably 3

Althought we ´d love to go back to all that museums, the Tower of London, St Paul... we can be happy with a day to take a stroll in Westminster and along Thames River and another day to see something new for us like Windsor or Hampton Court. A third "free day" would be very welcoming to visit a Royal Garden with our child and perhaps revisit a museum if we are not tired.

*** From London, you do not get to Bruges until late afternoon. By time you get settled, it will be time for dinner ***

-- How many days do we need in Belgium? --

1 free day in Bruges, preferebly another one to a side trip

It´s true, we ´ll get to the hotel about 16:30. So, if we stay a minimum of 2 nights we could have two dinners and a whole day to visit Brugge. It seems enough for us, since having dinner in a Belgium brewery is a top experience for us and one of the motivations to not skip Belgium.

Off course, we ´d also like to have a second free day to see Gent/Antwerp or just to rest if our baby feel tired, but if prefer to cut a day here than in London.

** Earlier, you asked about Arles rather than Aigues Mortes. Such a personal choice and they are so different. **



-- How many days do we need in Nimes? --

Difficult to say, because I only started to research about this region a few days ago.

What I can say is that we chose Nimes because it seems to be a convenient base to explore that region and a pleasant way "to break" the 6h trip from Paris to Barcelona. Maybe it´s sounds crazy for you, but this break is a strong reason for us to not cut down Nimes from the itinerary.

Personally, we´d like to have at least two free day in this region to visit Pont Du Gard and Avignon and another one to Augues Mortes or Arles. As you said, both are interesting. A third day would also be welcoming, as we could use it to rest and slow down things.

mariojbra

skatterfly ,

** Hi Mario, yes, I see where there could be some confusion.**

Thanks for your answer, now I understood perfectly well.

** Now, moving on to the itinerary you just posted... I think you're on the right track, it looks like you gave yourself an extra night in Nimes, but possibly took a day away from Bruges---and didn't take any days away from London. ***

Our personal reasons are in the post before

**Since you've already bought your tickets to London, it sounds like you have to go there. Unless... any chance the London tickets are refundable or could be changed to another destination city, such as Paris or Bruges?**

No, we can ´t change it.

** It also sounds like you have kept 2 nights in Madrid so you can get in some shopping and see the Royal Palace. I personally would probably take that down to only 1 night in Madrid (and use it simply as a hub for repacking the backs and getting ready to fly home) but only you could know if that would work for you.**

Yes, it ´s exactly our style. We like do some shopping in the last day of our trip and prepare our luggage for the flight back home.
We also missed a visit to the Royal Palace in Madrid in our last trip, but it ´s not that important for us. If we have just one free day there it won´t be a problem.

*** With a late flight into London, it probably doesn't make a *lot* of sense to only give London 2 nights... ***

Actually with a late flight we´d prefer to stay 4 nights in London. We really liked that city... =)

*** BUT... if you're mostly interested in seeing Windsor castle (the only specific thing you had on your original itinerary), have you considered just staying 2 nights in London, outside in say, Windsor? This is certainly less expensive than staying in the center of London. (Or, if you just want to see one royal palace in London, have you seen Hampton Court Palace? Also outside of London.) ***
**
If you shortened London to 2 nights, you can see that it gives you lots of breathing room in the middle of the trip, such as*

Not really what we were thinking about, but it seems to be a reasonable ideia. You ´re very creative skatterfly. I have to talk with my wife =)

**All that said, you can keep parsing the itinerary, give a day here, take a way there, and it's easy to get completely wrapped up in the number of days in each city. ***

Yes, it ´s very funny. I do it that all the time (and simulate hotel and trains costs).

***But it's a good time to start thinking about what you want from the trip, and what are the top, say, 10 things you want to see? ***

I have said something about this in the previous topic.

***For example, it looks like you're really interested in Castles and Royal Palaces, etc.***

Yes, we definitly love it.

*** Who knows, maybe you'd rather drop Paris than London? (Gasp... I didn't really say that!) ***

Don ´t let skatterfly knows, but we actually liked London more than Paris... but I think it´s just because we had more time in London.

As i said, I only started to research about Nimes/Provence region a few days ago, but I have this ideia how to fit it in our schedule.

Thank you people, great tips.

mariojbra

***This can be a really difficult thing to plan, since you're trying to take advantage of the best train prices and then find affordable hotels. Hang in there. All this work will be worth it in the end.**

I forget to mention that, this is the worst part of the planning. The moment when you find out that there is no more trains tickets avaliable at that -promo- fare or the hotel has sold out. How I hate these eurostar and scnf fares... time is running out and we have to make a choice.

skatterfly

Well, Mario... it sounds like you've clarified a lot of things (and you haven't grown frustrated with all of us putting different ideas in your head.)

I know that not everyone is as obsessed with Paris as I am. I can deal with it.

<u>A couple of thoughts now that you've explained more about your interests:</u>

1) You really enjoy London and have a really filled out idea of what things you want to revisit in London. It will start to feel like "your" place, the way I feel about Paris. In that case, I probably wouldn't advise you to cut London to 3 nights.

2) With 4 nights in London, have you looked into a small apartment instead of a budget hotel near a train station? Might be a way to save a little money and enjoy "living" in London a bit.

3) For Bruges, it really sounds like you may need 3 nights there, since your Eurostar arrives late in the day on the first day. 3 nights gives you 2 full days of exploring. 2 nights only gives you 1 day of exploring. Then you have the option to leave early in the morning to get to Paris.

4) You haven't said much about Paris, but I am starting to get the impression that Paris was chosen in part because it's a good stopover to break up the traveling on your way back to Spain by train. Have you started to fill out in your mind the things you really want to experience again in Paris? Is Paris a place you would want to cut down to 3 nights? How about 2 nights in Paris?

5) Re: Nimes... I was previously under the impression that you selected Nimes so you could visit Provence on this trip. But now I'm understanding that, maybe, it was also meant as a stopover on the journey back to Spain? That is not to say that you don't want to explore, but it certainly helps me understand that you're not trying to see all of Provence from one stopover on the TGV. If that's the case, then perhaps you should figure out the basic things you're interested in, work back the transportation logistics of bus/train (i.e to Pont du Gard or Arles or whatever you decide you want to see there), and validate that you can get a nice introduction to Provence with 4 nights there.

With all of those assumptions in place, here's an slight variation of one of the itineraries you posted above, that allows you 4 nights in Nimes:

Lisbon - 3 nights
London - 4 nights
Bruges - 3 nights
Paris - 3 nights
Nimes - 4 nights
Barcelona - 4 nights
Madrid - 2 nights

If Paris were to become 2 nights... you could give an extra night to Nimes, as here:

Lisbon - 3 nights
London - 4 nights
Bruges - 3 nights
Paris - 2 nights
Nimes - 5 nights
Barcelona - 4 nights
Madrid - 2 nights

Or, if Paris were only 2 nights... you could give the extra day to Bruges, as here:

Lisbon - 3 nights
London - 4 nights
Bruges - 4 nights
Paris - 2 nights
Nimes - 4 nights
Barcelona - 4 nights
Madrid - 2 nights

Or if Bruges were only 2 nights, Paris could have 4 nights, as here:

Lisbon - 3 nights
London - 4 nights
Bruges - 2 nights
Paris - 4 nights
Nimes - 4 nights
Barcelona - 4 nights
Madrid - 2 nights

These are all slight variations on where you started, and the decisions are all yours.

Sassafrass

Skatterfly,
"Very slighly Seedy" was probably not quite the right words to use, especially since I like seedy, or crumbling places, find them charming, and did not really intend a negative. Rather than seedy, I should have said, that IMHO, it seemed a bit like a poor relative of Aix and Avignon, but with great character and unpolished charm. I loved being there. It is a lively city and people are warm and very, very nice. I would not discourage anyone from going, and for a day trip, it offers more than many other places. We also enjoyed an afternoon in Les Baux.

mariojbra

skatterfly,

1) Here´s our revised schedule in London
QUA (01/04) LIS-LONDON (Flight from Lisbon arring 15:30pm - Catch Gatwick train to hotel in St Pancras - free time)
- Busy day, no sightseeing
QUI (02/04) LONDON (Buckingham/St James Park/Westminster)
- Try to visit Westminster Abbey
SEX (03/04) LONDON (Windsor Castle)
SAB (04/04) LONDON (Stroll along Thames River-Visit Some Market)
- Very slow sightseeing

2) Tune hotel next to St Pancras is a good budget hotel (about 100 euros a day). It´s a very tiny room, but honestly we don ´t mind it. The only thing we don ´t like it is that they don ´t put a crib in the room.
Do you have a suggestion where can I look for a small apartment in this area?

3) Our revised Brugge schedule :

DOM (05/04) LONDON-BRUGES (Eurostar arriving Brussels 12:58- Conection Brugge - hotel ibis budget next to station)
- Should get to the hotel next to 15:00 . Very light sightseeing and dinner at a brewery
SEG (06/04) BRUGES (normal sighseeing)
- Take a boat tour, have dinner at a brewery

We think that we can get to the hotel about 15:00, so we really don ´t need a third day for Brugge

We also have an alternative : We can stay in Brussels the first day and do a daytrip to Brugge in the second day. That way we could drop off the bags in Brussels and avoid two train conections. What do you think?

4) Paris is really a very convenient stopover in our way to Spain. And it has an advantage to be a wonderful place to take a stroll with a child. If we took one day in Belgium we could add one day in Paris.

As a expert, could you help us with this schedule?

TER (07/04) BRUGES-PARIS (Conection in Brussels or Early Direct train (in this case confirm with hotel) - from g. du nord take a taxi for a hotel next to G. Lyon
- Busy day, very light sightseeing, maybe pompideau or bastille
QUA (08/04) PARIS (Trocadero/Eiffel Tower/Alexander Bridge/D´orsay/Notredame)
- No entrances , use the metro
QUI (09/04) PARIS (Louvre/Tulleries/Champs Elysee/Arc du thiumph)
- No entrances, walk
SEX (10/04) PARIS (train to loire and take a excursion there OR fontaneblaeu)
- Busy day
SAB (11/04) PARIS (Quartier Latin/Luxembourg)
- Light sigseeing, no entrances, picnick at Luxembourg

5) Yes, we don ´t have the ambition to see all the Provence. In my opinion, some cities there (Aux, Marseille) fits better a French Riviera and Cinqueterre/Milan trip. In fact, it´s a whole new trip.

You´ve got my crazy ideias, Nimes is much like a stopover on our journey back to Spain.

But here I really need help. If I add one day in Paris than I´ll have just three days in Nimes. It´s a battle between Paris x Nimes.

Our schedule may be :

DOM (12/04) PARIS-NIMES (Scnf arriving in Nimes 13h06 - hotel Ibis next to station)
- See Roman ruins next to the hotel
SEG (13/04) NIMES (sidetrip Avignon)
- Busy day. Bus to Pont du Gard and train to Avignon
TER (14/04) NIMES (sidetrip Arles or Augues?)
- Sightseeing in the morning, afternoon has to be free to get prepared for Barcelona

Your last one itinerary looks nice for me. I have just one doubt :

5 days in Paris and 3 in Nimes or 4 days in Paris and 4 days in Nimes. Hard choice.

mariojbra

Sassafrass ,

I agree, there are some really beautifull seedy cities in Italy and a lot of of them in South America.

Sassafrass

Stay in Bruges, not Brussels. Bruges is very small, so easy to get around and nice to wake up right where you want to be. Also, lovely to walk around at night.

Sassafrass

I have stayed in rooms in London and Paris where they could not have put a crib in the room, even had they wanted to. Both were so small that space on one side of the bed was taken up by only two suitcases and small carry-ons, with narrow walking space on only one side of the bed.

So, it may not be that the hotel doesn't put a crib in the room, but rather, they can't.

mariojbra

In our first trip to London we have stayed in another London Tune Hotel. Yes, the room was really small, it makes sense that they just can ´t put a crib in the room. I rather book a two-bed room because it is a little bigger, at least some space for a baby stroller.

jamikins

Just wanted to note that trains from Gatwick through London bridge (these are the direct trains from Gatwick to St Pancras) will be highly disrupted from jan 2015 through aug 2016. I don't believe there will be a direct service to St Pancras - you will likely have to change trains at Victoria. This is due to massive engineering works rebuilding London bridge station.

Check out the information on the Thameslink website