Bruschetta in Rick Steve's Hill Towns show?
Jun 12th, 2007, 05:00 AM
#23
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"When words migrate from one language to another, the pronunciation is often, if not usually, changed. It's not a sin."
Unfortunately, it seems to be for some people although they are the same ones who never call it "Roma" when they write about it.
Unfortunately, it seems to be for some people although they are the same ones who never call it "Roma" when they write about it.
Jun 12th, 2007, 05:06 AM
#24
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>When words migrate from one language to another, the pronunciation is often, if not usually, changed. It's not a sin.<
In 50 years it might be brooshetta or one pannini, but right now they are still Italian words being used incorrectly.
It is tantamount to someone saying pizzzza instead of pea tsa.
In 50 years it might be brooshetta or one pannini, but right now they are still Italian words being used incorrectly.
It is tantamount to someone saying pizzzza instead of pea tsa.
I know what chicharron is..it is usually called here "cortezas". Much more typical in Mexico, I think
Jun 12th, 2007, 08:23 AM
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Actually the pronunciations frequently change immediately. Words are very often shared thru the written word first for most people, so they naturally put their own language's spin on the pronunciation. It's been happening for a long, long time.
Jun 12th, 2007, 10:00 AM
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Bruschetta to me is never quite the same nor quite as good if made with a bread other than a nice, dense, peasanty loaf - something with some weight and size. It ought to be toasty and toasted but not crumbly like a cracker not hard as a shingle. It's one of the great ways to sample olive oils and one of the simplest ways to make a meal or snack of ripe red tomatoes, mild onions etc. You've all got me planning a bruschetta and bottle of rose for tonight, even if it's too early for great tomatoes ... how about fagioli?
A french loaf or other baguette-type bread makes crostini - piu croccante, if you know what I mean.
By the way, EK, have you ever had the cicchetti at Le Zie in Chelsea? A great summer meal for two or more, or appetizer for a few folks having a bottle of wine. Includes white beans, a fish mousse, little pickled fishes, meatballs, breaded shrimp balls, etc. YUM.
Wikipedia says 'The noun "bruschetta" is from the verb in the Roman dialect "bruscare," meaning "to roast over coals." '
They also hold that 'In Tuscany, bruschetta is called fettunta, meaning "oiled slice".' Anyone care to refute or confirm that?
I find another article online from The New Statesman http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...29/ai_62213861
The say, 'Marcella Hazan points out: "The most important ingredient in bruschetta is not garlic but olive oil." The garlic on bruschetta is rubbed on, so that you inhale the fresh garlic perfume as a backdrop to the olive oil, rather than eating great lumps of it. The origin of bruschetta was probably the ancient Roman practice of tasting newly pressed olive oil on a piece of bread, with or without garlic -- a practice that has continued in the oil-producing areas of Tuscany, Umbria and Lazio.'
Lots of other funny little things in that article, much about "bruschetta liberals" of London, etc.
To climb on the soapbox re: pronunciation, it IS a minor sin when travel "pros" and cuisine "experts" propogate simple mispronunciations. Among other things, these folks are supposedly teaching their viewers - they need to have their feet held to the fire when "teaching" mistakes. It would obviously be inexcusable for a pro to say "head south from Rome for Milan and the lake district" - it's equally sloppy and ignorant to say something like, "BAG-no-reggio" (hard "G"
as Steves does when referring to one of his supposed favorite places in the world. Steves makes remarkably basic mispronunciations in Italian (and in other languages I assume), such as referring to the Cinque Terre as the Cinqua Terra. Small difference, but typical of his little errors, and rather like calling The Netherlands "The Netherland" - and he's hardly alone in that type of thing. If we're to trust the travel guru or chef's instruction and advice, they should get the place names and other basics right. And brushectta is pretty basic for a pro. Glad Rick got that one right. (funny enough, he and others will often say a place or word right one time, wrong the next - as if trying to plese everyone.)
The word will never be pronounced "brooshedda" in Italian, even if it becomes that in English (so far, bruschetta is not an English word.) Go to Italy and order brooshedda and you may get what you want. Or you may get a funny look. It will make the same sense as an Italian in the US who, wanting a rare steak, orders a rear stuck. "ch" takes the place of "k" in Italian and probably always will. Any American who can say "school" can pronounce "bruschetta." But Americans who learn Italian from waiters at Olive Garden (or from TV food and travel pros, unfortunately) may come home from Europe saying, "Those Italians don't even know how to speak their own language."
Words are wonderful things, and they do morph in meaning and spelling. However that is generally accomplished by the people who speak the language in question. A foreign "expert" who gets it wrong is still wrong, no matter how many trusting folks he/she teaches the wrong way. (See also the amusing but confounding Standard Deviants language dvds, where words go through multiple pronunciations from the various "instructors".)
A french loaf or other baguette-type bread makes crostini - piu croccante, if you know what I mean.
By the way, EK, have you ever had the cicchetti at Le Zie in Chelsea? A great summer meal for two or more, or appetizer for a few folks having a bottle of wine. Includes white beans, a fish mousse, little pickled fishes, meatballs, breaded shrimp balls, etc. YUM.
Wikipedia says 'The noun "bruschetta" is from the verb in the Roman dialect "bruscare," meaning "to roast over coals." '
They also hold that 'In Tuscany, bruschetta is called fettunta, meaning "oiled slice".' Anyone care to refute or confirm that?
I find another article online from The New Statesman http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...29/ai_62213861
The say, 'Marcella Hazan points out: "The most important ingredient in bruschetta is not garlic but olive oil." The garlic on bruschetta is rubbed on, so that you inhale the fresh garlic perfume as a backdrop to the olive oil, rather than eating great lumps of it. The origin of bruschetta was probably the ancient Roman practice of tasting newly pressed olive oil on a piece of bread, with or without garlic -- a practice that has continued in the oil-producing areas of Tuscany, Umbria and Lazio.'
Lots of other funny little things in that article, much about "bruschetta liberals" of London, etc.
To climb on the soapbox re: pronunciation, it IS a minor sin when travel "pros" and cuisine "experts" propogate simple mispronunciations. Among other things, these folks are supposedly teaching their viewers - they need to have their feet held to the fire when "teaching" mistakes. It would obviously be inexcusable for a pro to say "head south from Rome for Milan and the lake district" - it's equally sloppy and ignorant to say something like, "BAG-no-reggio" (hard "G"
as Steves does when referring to one of his supposed favorite places in the world. Steves makes remarkably basic mispronunciations in Italian (and in other languages I assume), such as referring to the Cinque Terre as the Cinqua Terra. Small difference, but typical of his little errors, and rather like calling The Netherlands "The Netherland" - and he's hardly alone in that type of thing. If we're to trust the travel guru or chef's instruction and advice, they should get the place names and other basics right. And brushectta is pretty basic for a pro. Glad Rick got that one right. (funny enough, he and others will often say a place or word right one time, wrong the next - as if trying to plese everyone.)The word will never be pronounced "brooshedda" in Italian, even if it becomes that in English (so far, bruschetta is not an English word.) Go to Italy and order brooshedda and you may get what you want. Or you may get a funny look. It will make the same sense as an Italian in the US who, wanting a rare steak, orders a rear stuck. "ch" takes the place of "k" in Italian and probably always will. Any American who can say "school" can pronounce "bruschetta." But Americans who learn Italian from waiters at Olive Garden (or from TV food and travel pros, unfortunately) may come home from Europe saying, "Those Italians don't even know how to speak their own language."
Words are wonderful things, and they do morph in meaning and spelling. However that is generally accomplished by the people who speak the language in question. A foreign "expert" who gets it wrong is still wrong, no matter how many trusting folks he/she teaches the wrong way. (See also the amusing but confounding Standard Deviants language dvds, where words go through multiple pronunciations from the various "instructors".)
Jun 12th, 2007, 10:06 AM
#31
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I wrote:
<< And brushectta is pretty basic for a pro. Glad Rick got that one right. (funny enough, he and others will often say a place or word right one time, wrong the next - as if trying to plese everyone.)
But when I type "brushectta" I'm not likely to "plese" anyone at all.
<< And brushectta is pretty basic for a pro. Glad Rick got that one right. (funny enough, he and others will often say a place or word right one time, wrong the next - as if trying to plese everyone.)
But when I type "brushectta" I'm not likely to "plese" anyone at all.
Jun 12th, 2007, 10:26 AM
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Well, TC, you "plesed" me with your comments. Frankly I was shocked the other day when I went into a suposedly "fine" cheese shop here in NY and asked the guy behind the counter how to pronounce "tomme." His answer: Well, you can pronounce it "tom." Or "tom-may." What kind of authority is this that cannot tell me how to pronounce one of the cheeses he sells?
I think the mistakes you mentioned are an indication of general sloppiness; my opinion of a "travel authority" would plummet if I were to hear this kind of incorrect pronunciation.. This is why the Tyler Florence mistake irked me so when I heard him on the radio declaiming about great "Spanish" restaurants on Roosevelt Avenue in Queens, a street lined with Latin American restaurants..
I have never been to Le Zie but will plan to go soon, based on your recommendation. As for tomatoes, I know they are nothing close to the real summer thing, but Fairway sells boxes of very good "Campari" brand tomatoes that I have been enjoying for lunch with fresh mozzarella and oil-packed Italian artichokes.
I think the mistakes you mentioned are an indication of general sloppiness; my opinion of a "travel authority" would plummet if I were to hear this kind of incorrect pronunciation.. This is why the Tyler Florence mistake irked me so when I heard him on the radio declaiming about great "Spanish" restaurants on Roosevelt Avenue in Queens, a street lined with Latin American restaurants..
I have never been to Le Zie but will plan to go soon, based on your recommendation. As for tomatoes, I know they are nothing close to the real summer thing, but Fairway sells boxes of very good "Campari" brand tomatoes that I have been enjoying for lunch with fresh mozzarella and oil-packed Italian artichokes.
Jun 12th, 2007, 05:01 PM
#33
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EK, Le Zie has a Veneto-inspired menu. Claudio is the proprietor, be sure to meet him. He's a charming, affable Venetian. The restaurant is dependable, unassuming and unpretentious - may never be famed, but has some sweet spots on the menu. (20th and 7th)
Jun 12th, 2007, 08:00 PM
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Hi all:
Doesn't Jack in the Box have some kind of "Bruschetta" sandwich???? lol
I am tired, I know it's not funny but I think they do.
Scrunchy, please clarify the difference between Mofongo and Fufu.
Is the only difference the ripeness of the plaintains? Mofongo required green ones and Fufu more ripe? Or is there something else?
Doesn't Jack in the Box have some kind of "Bruschetta" sandwich???? lol
I am tired, I know it's not funny but I think they do.
Scrunchy, please clarify the difference between Mofongo and Fufu.
Is the only difference the ripeness of the plaintains? Mofongo required green ones and Fufu more ripe? Or is there something else?
Jun 13th, 2007, 03:02 AM
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tom--certainly if you're going to another country you should attempt to pronounce words they way they do. And certainly travel experts should make every effort to pronounce words correctly according to native use (though there is a balancing need for popular travel experts to make things understandable for an audience that might not recognize what the heck they are talking about if they go overboard with it).
But it seems that you go on to say that words generally change in pronunciation only in their country of origin--I think I must be misinterpreting what you meant as we know that "foreign" words will change in pronunciation very quickly when used in another country. Maybe I missed what you were trying to say there.
But it seems that you go on to say that words generally change in pronunciation only in their country of origin--I think I must be misinterpreting what you meant as we know that "foreign" words will change in pronunciation very quickly when used in another country. Maybe I missed what you were trying to say there.
Jun 13th, 2007, 04:19 AM
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Amsdon you are flattering me to think I am an expert on African Food! I thought fufu was made from cassava flour and was some kind of non-so-tasty mealy dish. I have never tried it, though!! (But I did travel a bit in West Africa and loved it!!!) So who can we inveigle to make this clarification?
Do you cook with plantains? I have done so a couple of times, very long ago...
Do you cook with plantains? I have done so a couple of times, very long ago...
Jun 13th, 2007, 05:49 AM
#38
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Scrunchy:
I do not want to hijack this thread but yes I do cook with plaintains.
Perhaps we should start another thead not irritate those here on bruschetta? Let me know.
Fu Fu is indeed rooted in African culture. But it is also a Cuban dish much like mashed potatoes only made w/plaintains and little bit of pork and garlic. I must admit I have never made even tasted it because it was not something that was served in my home. We only made the platanos maduros (very ripe & sweet/black plantains & tostones (twice fried & smashed green plaintains) and mariquitas (plaintain chips).
I do not want to hijack this thread but yes I do cook with plaintains.
Perhaps we should start another thead not irritate those here on bruschetta? Let me know.
Fu Fu is indeed rooted in African culture. But it is also a Cuban dish much like mashed potatoes only made w/plaintains and little bit of pork and garlic. I must admit I have never made even tasted it because it was not something that was served in my home. We only made the platanos maduros (very ripe & sweet/black plantains & tostones (twice fried & smashed green plaintains) and mariquitas (plaintain chips).
Jun 13th, 2007, 06:55 AM
#39
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Jake, I see your point. I'd put it this way: when a foreign word is introduced to the culture - as menu items constantly are introduced to ours - they obviously are open to mispronunciation by anyone not familiar with the language (I'm sure I do it myself all the time, even while wishing I knew the right pronunciation.) My point is that even if the morphing takes place in a widespread way among the new users, it won't affect the way the word is pronounced "at home."
Bruschetta is an interesting example. It looks like the two main occurences of -sch- in English relate to either Germanic or Italian/Latin influence. And the pronunciations are "sh" for the former, "sk" for the latter.
On the northern European menu: kaffeeflatsch, braunschweiger, hamantasch - and borscht. But in Ischia you could be served our bruschetta. And you'll want to know the difference between PESCHE and PESCE or you could be eating dessert first!
My big Collins Sansoni dictionary doesn't even include bruschetta. It does have "bruschinare", to brush or groom (as a horse), but not the Roman dialect verb "bruscare" as reported earlier.
Other words: brusca is a horse-brush. Brusco (-a) means "brusque".
I confess I always harbored a thought that bruschetta came from a "brush" verb, as in, bread "brushed" with garlic and oil. But if it's a horse brush, that theory gallops off.
Anyway, it all comes down to Italian language forms. "SC" is pronounced like "sk" unless it precedes an "e" or "i". Then it's like "sh." So to keep the K sound intact, the h has to be added. Thus, one man may be "brusco", but two are "bruschi". And a brewski or two may be called for just about now ...
Bruschetta is an interesting example. It looks like the two main occurences of -sch- in English relate to either Germanic or Italian/Latin influence. And the pronunciations are "sh" for the former, "sk" for the latter.
On the northern European menu: kaffeeflatsch, braunschweiger, hamantasch - and borscht. But in Ischia you could be served our bruschetta. And you'll want to know the difference between PESCHE and PESCE or you could be eating dessert first!
My big Collins Sansoni dictionary doesn't even include bruschetta. It does have "bruschinare", to brush or groom (as a horse), but not the Roman dialect verb "bruscare" as reported earlier.
Other words: brusca is a horse-brush. Brusco (-a) means "brusque".
I confess I always harbored a thought that bruschetta came from a "brush" verb, as in, bread "brushed" with garlic and oil. But if it's a horse brush, that theory gallops off.
Anyway, it all comes down to Italian language forms. "SC" is pronounced like "sk" unless it precedes an "e" or "i". Then it's like "sh." So to keep the K sound intact, the h has to be added. Thus, one man may be "brusco", but two are "bruschi". And a brewski or two may be called for just about now ...
