Diners Club Ubtridyces New Cards for US Residents
Oct 3rd, 2014, 11:18 PM
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Diners Club Ubtridyces New Cards for US Residents
After a long hiatus, Bank of Montreal/Harris has isued two new Diners Club cards available to US residents. One will have an annual fee of $95 the other over $400. You can read, if you are inteested about the benefits of each on the diners club web site. What might make them appealing to USA residents here is that both have no foreign transaction fees and both will apparently be "true" chip and pin cards bringing to a total of 2 the number of "true" chip and pin cards available to USA residents.
Almost all the remaining emv chip compliant cards that have been issued in the USA and indications are almost all of the rest that will be issued in the future, at least for the time being, will function as chip and signature cards at point of sales terminals throughout the world although many will have the ability to work in unpersonneled kiosks such as unattended gas stations, parking garages and transportation machines.
We have discussed this topic repeatedly and some of the misunderstandings regarding the USA roll out of emv chip compliant cards. Visa and mastercard and Amex pushed hard for the USA to go chip and signature rather than chip and pin and claim that they will be mounting campaigns to make sure merchants throughout the world understand they must accept chip and signature cards as there have been a few scasttered reports of some merchants refusing to complete a transaction when his or her terminal flashes signature required even though the terminal is quite willing to process the transaction leaving some up the creek without a paddle. I stress this has only been reported in isolated cases. Visa/mc and amex also claim they will work to make sure that chip and signature cards will be accepted at unpersonneled kiosks by nexgt June. How successful that will be is open to question.
This seems to be the latest as the USA moves into the late 20th century as far as credit cards are concerned; just in time for a new generation of payment media to be introduced such as Apple pay. But it's clearly better than mag strips. That's for sure. (See Home Depot, Target, Calfiornia Department of Motor Vehicles).
Almost all the remaining emv chip compliant cards that have been issued in the USA and indications are almost all of the rest that will be issued in the future, at least for the time being, will function as chip and signature cards at point of sales terminals throughout the world although many will have the ability to work in unpersonneled kiosks such as unattended gas stations, parking garages and transportation machines.
We have discussed this topic repeatedly and some of the misunderstandings regarding the USA roll out of emv chip compliant cards. Visa and mastercard and Amex pushed hard for the USA to go chip and signature rather than chip and pin and claim that they will be mounting campaigns to make sure merchants throughout the world understand they must accept chip and signature cards as there have been a few scasttered reports of some merchants refusing to complete a transaction when his or her terminal flashes signature required even though the terminal is quite willing to process the transaction leaving some up the creek without a paddle. I stress this has only been reported in isolated cases. Visa/mc and amex also claim they will work to make sure that chip and signature cards will be accepted at unpersonneled kiosks by nexgt June. How successful that will be is open to question.
This seems to be the latest as the USA moves into the late 20th century as far as credit cards are concerned; just in time for a new generation of payment media to be introduced such as Apple pay. But it's clearly better than mag strips. That's for sure. (See Home Depot, Target, Calfiornia Department of Motor Vehicles).
Oct 4th, 2014, 02:16 AM
#4
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We could go through the whole history of Diners Club whichindeed was the first really big time travel & entertainment charge (it really wasn't a credit card; the bill was due each month) card. Amex followed a few years later. At one time, many many merchants in Euroe took Diners Club and it was almost worth the annual fee of $25 to carry it when travelling in Europe (Amex though was good because of the mail drop; remember many times going to the Amex office on the Haymarket in London to pick up my mail). It took a long long time for visa and mastercard to attain the almost universal acceptance they have today leaving Diners and to a lesser degree Amex far in the rear.
And unless you use the card a great deal to take advantage of their various rewards programs (you can transfer miles to many airline and points to many hotel programs). The card is now marketed as a mastercard in North America. Discover card bought the international side of the business to try to have some sort of presence outside the USA and you can use Discover card at any merchant outside North America that accepts Dioners but how many merchants outside North America are there that take Diners and don't take mc? I would say next to none.
However some in the USA are so bummed out that the USA, contgrary to what many write and think, is basically not going chip and pin but is going chip and signature as the banks and issuers contend many Americans are either too dumb (their words not mine) or stubborn to want to change their ways of signing for charges rather than trying to remember different pins for different cards.
I travel a good deal and use my cards for every last thing for every last charge I make during the course of a year for amounts as low as $1. And in that sense, to me, it isn't worth $95 for a glorified mastercard just to get a "true" chip and pin card.
But since there is so much misinformation written and posted on various forum, I thought I should bring this to everybody's attention here. After all, DC will have the proper foreign transaction fee i.e. zero.
And unless you use the card a great deal to take advantage of their various rewards programs (you can transfer miles to many airline and points to many hotel programs). The card is now marketed as a mastercard in North America. Discover card bought the international side of the business to try to have some sort of presence outside the USA and you can use Discover card at any merchant outside North America that accepts Dioners but how many merchants outside North America are there that take Diners and don't take mc? I would say next to none.
However some in the USA are so bummed out that the USA, contgrary to what many write and think, is basically not going chip and pin but is going chip and signature as the banks and issuers contend many Americans are either too dumb (their words not mine) or stubborn to want to change their ways of signing for charges rather than trying to remember different pins for different cards.
I travel a good deal and use my cards for every last thing for every last charge I make during the course of a year for amounts as low as $1. And in that sense, to me, it isn't worth $95 for a glorified mastercard just to get a "true" chip and pin card.
But since there is so much misinformation written and posted on various forum, I thought I should bring this to everybody's attention here. After all, DC will have the proper foreign transaction fee i.e. zero.
Oct 4th, 2014, 05:51 AM
#5
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 57,890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem is that so many places will not accept Diner's Club cards.
My company had DC (corporate) as a client and so we are issued with company DC cards - but they are supported by Citibank MCs (logo on the DC card) since otherwise most places (hotels and airlines included) won;t take them.
My company had DC (corporate) as a client and so we are issued with company DC cards - but they are supported by Citibank MCs (logo on the DC card) since otherwise most places (hotels and airlines included) won;t take them.
Oct 4th, 2014, 06:29 AM
#6
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I understand it, Diners Club cards now have mastercard logos on them, the account numbers start with a 5 (the original DC account numbers started with 38..) and are honored everywhere mastercard is accepted. There are very few places in the world that have Diners Club logos but I think the new and old North American Diners Club cards, issued by Bank of Montreal would be honored at Diners Club merchants. I suspect there are no Diners Club merchants left in North America.
The whole issue has become somewhat complicated, that's for sure.
The whole issue has become somewhat complicated, that's for sure.
Oct 4th, 2014, 08:28 AM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I applaud your attempt to provide helpful info xyz123.
Now for my 'buts'. First off course is the issue of where a Diner's Club card will be accepted as nytraveler points out.
Second, is of what use the card is. By that I mean a credit card is not a debit card. So if you use this card in an ATM to withdraw some cash, will you be charged interest? If so, it is of little use as a substitute for a debit card.
Third, since you have looked at this, can you tell us whether when they say, 'no foreign transaction fee' that actually means they will exchange at the Interbank Rate or does it simply mean (as many do) that they will use their own exchange rate and charge no 'fee' on top of that exchange rate? Often credit card providers advertise no 'foreign transaction fee' but use their own exchange rate which differs by several percentage points from the Interbank Rate.
Now for my 'buts'. First off course is the issue of where a Diner's Club card will be accepted as nytraveler points out.
Second, is of what use the card is. By that I mean a credit card is not a debit card. So if you use this card in an ATM to withdraw some cash, will you be charged interest? If so, it is of little use as a substitute for a debit card.
Third, since you have looked at this, can you tell us whether when they say, 'no foreign transaction fee' that actually means they will exchange at the Interbank Rate or does it simply mean (as many do) that they will use their own exchange rate and charge no 'fee' on top of that exchange rate? Often credit card providers advertise no 'foreign transaction fee' but use their own exchange rate which differs by several percentage points from the Interbank Rate.
Oct 4th, 2014, 08:42 AM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is a good and fairly recent article (June, 2014).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifest...9f1_story.html
It does give some real examples that indicate just how easily and for simple things, not having a chip and pin card can make into a hassle.
Really, if someone travels internationally and especially if they do so regularly, then not having a chip and pin card just doesn't make any sense. It isn't you can't find a workaround if you have to, it's just the hassle factor. Why not get a chip and pin card and avoid any possible hassle?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifest...9f1_story.html
It does give some real examples that indicate just how easily and for simple things, not having a chip and pin card can make into a hassle.
Really, if someone travels internationally and especially if they do so regularly, then not having a chip and pin card just doesn't make any sense. It isn't you can't find a workaround if you have to, it's just the hassle factor. Why not get a chip and pin card and avoid any possible hassle?
Oct 4th, 2014, 11:20 AM
#9
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I said, I think, the new Diners Club cards being issued by Bank of Montreal will be accepted everywhere mastercard is accepted. It is clearly being labeled as a mastercard and has a mastercard account number (16 digits starting with a 5 not 14 digits starting with a 3). I am not sure if it will be accepted outside of North America at merchants who have a diners card logo but not mastercard. I can hardly believe many of those actually exist today.
I didn't check out the cash advance business. It is normally not a very good idea to use a credit card of any kind for cash advances at ATM or bank branches although there are exceptions to that.
As far as foreign transaction fees, their blog clearly says no foreign transaction fees. As the card will be processed outside North America as a mastercard, one would assume although we will have to wait till somebody actually gets and uses the card just what that means but it is a fair assumption they will follow mastercard rules on this which more or less uses the interbank rate.
Now as far as your last point regarding chip and signature, this is not a simple matter and of course things change. As it stands today 04 October 2014 as I write this, there are only 2 credit cards available to USA residents, no matter how other banks market their cards as what I would call a "true" chip and pin cards. These financial institutions are UNFCU and now the new Diners Club card. That's it.
This is being done at the insistence of both the banks and the networks for several reasons they claim. One is the American payment card system is far larger and more complicated than elsewhere and Americans tend to carry more cards than most others. (Remember this is their argument, not mine). They insist many Americans will find it a pain to try to remember different pins. Also the banks do not want to do anything to discourage people from using their cards as they make humongeous profits on their card operations. I am sure they have had their beans counters look into this and have come to the conclusion that some may be intimidated by having to enter a pin. Also they claim some might get mixed up because of the way debit cards operate of using a pin and might think they will be subject to cash advance fees.
As it stands right now, the die has been cast for the time being. America is basically going chip and signature. Visa and mastercard insist the security is basically provided by the chip and 99.9% of merchants will accept chip and signature cards and they claim they will be issuing new guidelines to make it clear such cards must be accepted everywhere. Just how effective this will be is open to questions.
Now many of these chip and signature priority cards do have the ability at unpersonneled kiosks to operate as chip and pin; they have provision for offline pin at such places if signature fails. Visa and mastercard claim they will be issuing new regulations during 2015 to prohibit this. Again just how effective this will be is open to question.
As it stands today, although many merchant have already upgraded this credit card terminals in the USA and isolated merchants do use emv verification, the only national chain that has done so on almost a universal level is Walmart. Almost all Walmart terminals now take emv complaint cards. Interestingly enough, as is true in many American retailers, signatures are not required for purchases under $50 and in most cases in this country, clerks do not check signatures even when required. All USA issued cards with the exception of the UNFCU and USAA mastercards issued before April 2014 will either request a signature on a signature pad for amounts over $50 or just complete the tranjsaction. Visitors to the USA whose cards are chip and pin and Americans with the above 2 cards and now the new Diners Club will find the terminal asks for a pin no matter what the size of the purchase.
Things of course change but that's where it seems to stand as of today. Again, remember I'm just the messenger. These are all decisions being made by the banks and the networks.
I didn't check out the cash advance business. It is normally not a very good idea to use a credit card of any kind for cash advances at ATM or bank branches although there are exceptions to that.
As far as foreign transaction fees, their blog clearly says no foreign transaction fees. As the card will be processed outside North America as a mastercard, one would assume although we will have to wait till somebody actually gets and uses the card just what that means but it is a fair assumption they will follow mastercard rules on this which more or less uses the interbank rate.
Now as far as your last point regarding chip and signature, this is not a simple matter and of course things change. As it stands today 04 October 2014 as I write this, there are only 2 credit cards available to USA residents, no matter how other banks market their cards as what I would call a "true" chip and pin cards. These financial institutions are UNFCU and now the new Diners Club card. That's it.
This is being done at the insistence of both the banks and the networks for several reasons they claim. One is the American payment card system is far larger and more complicated than elsewhere and Americans tend to carry more cards than most others. (Remember this is their argument, not mine). They insist many Americans will find it a pain to try to remember different pins. Also the banks do not want to do anything to discourage people from using their cards as they make humongeous profits on their card operations. I am sure they have had their beans counters look into this and have come to the conclusion that some may be intimidated by having to enter a pin. Also they claim some might get mixed up because of the way debit cards operate of using a pin and might think they will be subject to cash advance fees.
As it stands right now, the die has been cast for the time being. America is basically going chip and signature. Visa and mastercard insist the security is basically provided by the chip and 99.9% of merchants will accept chip and signature cards and they claim they will be issuing new guidelines to make it clear such cards must be accepted everywhere. Just how effective this will be is open to questions.
Now many of these chip and signature priority cards do have the ability at unpersonneled kiosks to operate as chip and pin; they have provision for offline pin at such places if signature fails. Visa and mastercard claim they will be issuing new regulations during 2015 to prohibit this. Again just how effective this will be is open to question.
As it stands today, although many merchant have already upgraded this credit card terminals in the USA and isolated merchants do use emv verification, the only national chain that has done so on almost a universal level is Walmart. Almost all Walmart terminals now take emv complaint cards. Interestingly enough, as is true in many American retailers, signatures are not required for purchases under $50 and in most cases in this country, clerks do not check signatures even when required. All USA issued cards with the exception of the UNFCU and USAA mastercards issued before April 2014 will either request a signature on a signature pad for amounts over $50 or just complete the tranjsaction. Visitors to the USA whose cards are chip and pin and Americans with the above 2 cards and now the new Diners Club will find the terminal asks for a pin no matter what the size of the purchase.
Things of course change but that's where it seems to stand as of today. Again, remember I'm just the messenger. These are all decisions being made by the banks and the networks.
Oct 4th, 2014, 11:42 AM
#10
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have has DC forever, since before the MC alliance. I keep it for several reasons:
It is PRIMARY. Rental car collision coverage in all countries excepts Ireland Italy and New Zealand ( and a few others I can't recall but will likely never visit.
It is a MC so is accepted anywhere MC is.
Their concierge service is the best anywhere. They have found lost luggage that the airline ignored; found a car service when I Was stuck in NY and metronorth wasn't running; processed a small car rental claim within days.
Their club rewards points while not as good as some pays outright for flights unlike needing miles to book.
Customer service is on a par with the best I've ever used.
So for me the $95 has been worth it even without chip and pin.
I think they do charge foreign transaction fees so when abroad I use AMEX or get cash. I find AMEX is accepted at more and more places anymore.
It is PRIMARY. Rental car collision coverage in all countries excepts Ireland Italy and New Zealand ( and a few others I can't recall but will likely never visit.
It is a MC so is accepted anywhere MC is.
Their concierge service is the best anywhere. They have found lost luggage that the airline ignored; found a car service when I Was stuck in NY and metronorth wasn't running; processed a small car rental claim within days.
Their club rewards points while not as good as some pays outright for flights unlike needing miles to book.
Customer service is on a par with the best I've ever used.
So for me the $95 has been worth it even without chip and pin.
I think they do charge foreign transaction fees so when abroad I use AMEX or get cash. I find AMEX is accepted at more and more places anymore.
Oct 4th, 2014, 11:05 PM
#11
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,925
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>maybe this will make the post stand out.maybe this will make the post stand out.<<
"Ubtridyces" sounds like a very useful word, if we can agree on a suitable meaning. Possibly the sort of thing one might want to do to a credit card when it won't, for some reason, work.
"Ubtridyces" sounds like a very useful word, if we can agree on a suitable meaning. Possibly the sort of thing one might want to do to a credit card when it won't, for some reason, work.
Oct 5th, 2014, 04:09 AM
#13
I suspect all these Dinosaurs will washed away by the arrival of phone cash and the steps of Apple and Google into the money transfer market. Actually I suspect cash will become old fashioned pretty soon.
US bank behaviour just looks out of date.
US bank behaviour just looks out of date.
Oct 5th, 2014, 06:56 AM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most of the arguments you suggest for chip and signature don't really hold any water xyz123. Do you really think Americans are any more reluctant to use a PIN than Canadians for example?
What I don't understand about US banking's reluctance is they seem to be ignoring the major advantage banks everywhere else in the world see as the primary reason to go with chip and pin. It transfers the legal liability to the consumer.
With chip and pin, if there is a fraudulent transaction made on your credit card the DEFAULT assumption is that it could not have been made unless you allowed someone access to your PIN number. That makes you the consumer liable. Common sense tells me that if US banks are ignoring that major advantage, there has to be another reason for their reluctance and only one thing that I can think of would motivate a bank that way. Money. Somehow they see a cost they don't want to take on.
The two big issues are cost of conversion to chip and pin and the liability change. Everything else like 'people don't want to have to remember a PIN number' are smoke and mirrors.
Regarding ATMs, I agree using a credit card at an ATM is not a good idea since it invariably attracts immediate interest charges. That's why every traveller needs BOTH a credit card and a debit card that are chip and pinned. So while all the discussion is around credit cards and chip and pin, that is only half the issue. Debit cards are equally as important to have chipped.
When travelling I pay for most things with a credit card but I also want to have some 'walking around money' in my pocket as well. For that I need a debit card to use in ATMs.
Regarding only 2 sources xyz123, the article I linked indicates there are 5 with no conversion fees and an unknown number of others (small banks and credit unions)which are chip and pin but charge exchange. Also, as newtome indicates, DC has charged exchange in the past, that's why I asked if this new card will. That is a MAJOR factor in deciding what cards to use for travel.
I personally, use cards issued in the UK (I don't live there)that are chip and pin; both debit and credit; do not charge any exchange loading at all. Such cards do now exist in the USA and the savvy international traveller should be searching them out.
What is out of date is not just US bank cards, but also US travellers. Time to wise up to the world if you plan to travel outside the USA.
Any suggestion by US banks that the rest of the world is going to make changes to accomodate US travellers just doesn't make any sense. US travellers are running into problems with not having a chip and pin card, every day.
Rent a car; drive on a Sunday; pull into an automated gas station in France where no attendant is present and guess what. You cannot pump gas without a PIN. Then what?
Go to a railway station in Canada to hop a commuter train from a suburb into Toronto and guess what, you cannot buy a ticket without a PIN.
The list is endless with the article I linked pointing out some other typical examples.
What I don't understand about US banking's reluctance is they seem to be ignoring the major advantage banks everywhere else in the world see as the primary reason to go with chip and pin. It transfers the legal liability to the consumer.
With chip and pin, if there is a fraudulent transaction made on your credit card the DEFAULT assumption is that it could not have been made unless you allowed someone access to your PIN number. That makes you the consumer liable. Common sense tells me that if US banks are ignoring that major advantage, there has to be another reason for their reluctance and only one thing that I can think of would motivate a bank that way. Money. Somehow they see a cost they don't want to take on.
The two big issues are cost of conversion to chip and pin and the liability change. Everything else like 'people don't want to have to remember a PIN number' are smoke and mirrors.
Regarding ATMs, I agree using a credit card at an ATM is not a good idea since it invariably attracts immediate interest charges. That's why every traveller needs BOTH a credit card and a debit card that are chip and pinned. So while all the discussion is around credit cards and chip and pin, that is only half the issue. Debit cards are equally as important to have chipped.
When travelling I pay for most things with a credit card but I also want to have some 'walking around money' in my pocket as well. For that I need a debit card to use in ATMs.
Regarding only 2 sources xyz123, the article I linked indicates there are 5 with no conversion fees and an unknown number of others (small banks and credit unions)which are chip and pin but charge exchange. Also, as newtome indicates, DC has charged exchange in the past, that's why I asked if this new card will. That is a MAJOR factor in deciding what cards to use for travel.
I personally, use cards issued in the UK (I don't live there)that are chip and pin; both debit and credit; do not charge any exchange loading at all. Such cards do now exist in the USA and the savvy international traveller should be searching them out.
What is out of date is not just US bank cards, but also US travellers. Time to wise up to the world if you plan to travel outside the USA.
Any suggestion by US banks that the rest of the world is going to make changes to accomodate US travellers just doesn't make any sense. US travellers are running into problems with not having a chip and pin card, every day.
Rent a car; drive on a Sunday; pull into an automated gas station in France where no attendant is present and guess what. You cannot pump gas without a PIN. Then what?
Go to a railway station in Canada to hop a commuter train from a suburb into Toronto and guess what, you cannot buy a ticket without a PIN.
The list is endless with the article I linked pointing out some other typical examples.
Oct 5th, 2014, 07:05 AM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is an article that covers the 'ping pong' over liability that currently exists between merchants and banks in the USA. What it doesn't mention is that if the card is chip and PIN and the retailer has the correct card reader, the consumer then becomes the one who is liable.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...identity-theft
Billoburgler, if you read that article you will find that Kenya leads the world in 'mobile money'.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...identity-theft
Billoburgler, if you read that article you will find that Kenya leads the world in 'mobile money'.
Thread
Original Poster
Forum
Replies
Last Post
scdreamer
Europe
14
Mar 13th, 2015 03:36 PM
cdispoto
Travel Tips & Trip Ideas
14
Jul 27th, 2012 08:30 PM
lovesadventure
United States
26
Sep 3rd, 2006 05:10 PM
