Joel

I would also add to my comment just above, that here in the USA where I have worked with a lot of French expats for many years, they are particularly gracious and accepting of all the cultural idiosyncracies of the american culture. IMO we are far more insistent that OUR culture is the RIGHT culture, which, I would assess as our quite parochial and narrow-minded view of the world. So few of us would even consider having a second language or acknowledging the depth and beauty of long-lived European cultures. <BR>I have no clear idea anymore of how the French in France see Americans, but I found them understanding and tolerant beyond what I would have been in the reverse situation. <BR>Our offices here in the states happen to be across the street from a dozen or so American chain restaurants (Applebees, Macaroni Grill, et.al). I walked outdoors one day with a French gentleman I deeply respect, that had been with us here for about 3 years. It was lunchtime and the smells from the restaurants were very much in the air. He inhaled deeply and said, "Ahhh! Zee smell of bad American food!" and smiled. The French, some of them and certainly not all, can transcend culture in that fashion. Like it or not, tobacco politics notwithstanding, in France we should display as much grace.

Don't be rude

Joel-the Frenchman was *gracious* when he said "the smell of bad American food"? Even if he were kidding it would be in bad taste. Europeans often give rude opinions of Americans-to their faces. Most Americans do not say such things in the countries we visit. Some may ask for ice in their water, or for a bigger room etc. but would not say something rude to their face. <BR>

Joel

Yes, he was gracious. I should have explained that he was laughing at both French arrogance and our comparatively bad cuisine at the same time. <BR>I will say this about the French I know and have worked with in the USA. The significant majority have a level of kindness, humility, and tolerance for the occasional rude American that I find much less often in Americans.

Joel

I have to also disagree with "Stop-It's generalization (2 posts up this string) that Americans are as polite as he/she suggests in Europe. Americans (and you can see it in the kinds of questions posted here on Fodors) are fairly anxious about their upcoming trip to France. (It's a credit to them to want to do well.) <BR>I lived there for a couple of years with my wife and saw numerous situations of Americans lashing out against a frenchman or frenchwoman because the American didn't understand what was meant by whatever the frenchperson did/said. <BR>It's just fear, of course, and it's probably excusable, but it points out the consequences of being more or less an island nation that thinks so much of itself that it has the arrogance to name a whole century after itself. It points out our lack of cultural savoir-faire and our country-bumpkin representation of ourselves to the Europeans.

Chantal

If you truly "hate smoke" why go to Paris where there are many smokers? Regardless, you can "truly avoid it" by walking away from it or just leaving when you are exposed. Or stay in apartment and have meals there. It is not de rigueur to bring your small child into our restaurants. More offensive than smoking. Why would you presume that you will find people smoking in no smoking areas? Or that your admonition, no matter how polite, would have any affect whatsoever on the "offender" who obviously has no care? You are very incorrect that in the US no one is offended. I am from Paris and am allergic and affected. It is difficult but not impossible to avoid the smoke. In the US once I asked a man to extinguish his cigarette and he said "okay hold out your hand". You do not wish to be "sensitive" rather accomodated. Do not expect this. If you know everything from traveling there in the past, why go back? You should be much more concerned about the SUV's with 8mpg or all the autos spewing CO2 in the air, not the tobacco smoke. In Europe everyone is much more concious of the environment overall than in US. Public transportation is available, convenient and encouraged. If you truly prefer not to be around smoke, why go where you're sure to have problem?

european

"YOu should also be aware that the medical care in France or Europe is not to the same level as in the US" <BR> <BR>Really, so why does the WHO place France at the top and the USA in the 30s just above Cuba? Most European countries come in the top 20.

KC

I have to agree with Joel concerning the occasional rudeness of Americans in France. Scared little children out of their comfort zone, it sometimes seems. <BR>I was at CdG having lunch at one of the little coffee shops; a US couple was across from me. The guy went bonkers out of his frustration that the waiter did not speak English. To Joel's point, who has the burden to speak a foreign language in a foreign country? Either should if they can, but the visitor surely shouldn't flip out because the other guy cant!

Vincent

A little bit of drugstore philosophy to this trend: <BR> <BR>1. I am amazed by the prevalence of Americans being "allergic to tobacco". It seems that every American I've ever me is allergic to tobacco. And no European (except poor Chantal, but she's living in the States). So it must be a home grown disease (not tackled by this marvellous American health system, effectively ranked 30 something by the WHO, while France's came first... ) <BR> <BR>2. The American culture always seems to have to demonize something. In the 20s, it was alcohol, now it's tobacco. While you're talking about its devastating effect, you're not mentioning Kyoto, obesity pushed by fast-food and food processing companies, GM crops, the all-car policy, etc. Good all propaganda poltics.

USnonsmoker

I just wanted to clear something up. when americans say they are "allergic" to igrette smoke, they usually mean that it bothers them physically in some way. For instance, my workplace used to allow smoking in certain areas (trust me though there is no way to confine smoke to one area) so I wa around smoke frequently adn though I hated the nasty smell, it didn't bother me physicallly. now that there are tighter restrictions all over and am rarely if ever around smoke, it does bother me. A few weeks ago, we went to dinner at a couple's house where the husband smoked. I walke in the door of their home and was totally disgusted with the smell of the entire house. He lit up and shortly after my eyes began to water, my nose run, and later my eyes were totally red. by the end of the evening, I had a terrible headache. It was not over then, the next morning my eyes were completely swollen, my throat sore and gravelly sounding. Again, it used to not bother me, but now that I almost never encounter smoke, I have no tolerance and get "physical symptoms" which is what I think americans refer to when they say they are "allergic"

alby

The debate over the quality of French versus American medical care seems pointless. I've lived in France and the US for years and have received very good, but very different medical care in each country. Since both nationalities cured me, I'll only make these comments that I can attest to. <BR>#1. French doctors make house calls!!! That would make up for ONE HELL OF A LOT of other shortcomings, imho. <BR>#2. French doctors don't muck around, they go after what ails you, using the big guns in Round One. <BR>#3. French doctors spend time with you, listen to you, and aren't dealing out "sound bites" such as my several American physicians have.

StCirq

Alby: You never did say what you liked about American doctors, but what you said about French doctors is so on the money. We "save up our illnesses" these days and visit our doctor in France in the summer because we 1) get in the door and get to see him so much faster than at home, 2) get to spend as much time with him as WE want, and 3) get so much comprehensive advice from him on everything from sunblock to antihistamines to pain remedies to ..whatever...that we always feel he has really thought about the issues and cares, not that he's writing a prescription to get us out of the office. Compared to Blue Cross/ Blue Shield HMO, he's a genius. He also says hi to us when we see him at market and on the streets. I'd never run into my doctor here in the USA, and if I did, don't know that he'd recognize me. And yes, they make house calls, and if that isn't just the cat's meow, I don't know what is. Cost? About 115 francs per visit, whether in his office or your home - less than my copay in the USA. <BR> <BR>Doctors in Italy are marvelous, too. I think the WHO has the rankings pretty much correct.

Capo

I've been to France numerous times and, while I've certainly noticed that a lot more people smoke there, it's never bothered me. And I'm a non-smoker. I hate the smell of smoke in my clothes and hair the next day, but actually don't mind the smell of it when I'm in a restaurant, café, or bar. <BR> <BR>I would NOT want to work anywhere where smoking was permitted indoors. Nor would I want to fly on a long flight where smoking was permitted. The difference, to me, is in the amount of time I'm in an enclosed space. In a place like a restaurant, café, or bar, I'm not going to be there for very long (as compared to eight hours at work, or on a flight.) <BR> <BR>A libertarian at heart, I'm opposed to government "nanny-state" laws and regulations in principle. Smoke, however, crosses "personal boundaries". IMO, in the same way that -- with a commonly-used free speech analogy -- a person's right to swing their fist ends where their fist meets someone's nose, a person's "right" to smoke ends where their smoke meets someone's nose (and respiratory tract.) <BR> <BR>In otherwords, while I adamantly would not support any government attempts to ban/outlaw smoking (or drinking, etc.), per se -- as that's a choice that should be left to the individual -- I do support government attempts to limit <I>where</I> people can smoke.

Capo

Mac, Re: "Well, as this thread concerns France, it seems appropriate to quote the French philosopher and author La Rochefoucauld (1613-80) who viewed selfishness as the mainspring of human behaviour." <BR> <BR>Intereresting. And I agree with La Rochefoucauld. I think one of the missions of parents, and society in general, is to teach children to share, and to be considerate of others as I do not think these are behaviors that come naturally to us. (From an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense to me that we would, naturally, always put our own interests first.)

nosmoke!

I do not think anyone said on this thread that americans were not offended by someone asking them to put their cigarette out just that they were less so as not smoking is much more the norm here than smoking is. It is now widely accepted here that cigarette smoking is harmful and looked down on as is evidenced by the country passing laws against it and truly in the tobacco lawsuits. People understand how harmful it is and most people are at least thoughtful enough not to harm others even if they don't think enough of themselves to do the same. However, generally, in Europe, the pop culture more widely accepts smoking. Most people would be offended if you asked them to put out their cigarette. I don't understand it but that is the way it is. It does seem odd to me that a continent so careful about environmental issues, pollution, and global warming doesn't care how much secondhand smoke they inhale. I wonder do they not understand the effect (especially in children) or do they not care!?!!

x

Capo, why do I get the feeling you do so enjoy sitting next to a tres chic Parisian blowing smoke in your face, yet back in the states you would be probably revolted if you had to enter a trailer home where two people were smoking their virginia slims sitted around the formica breakfast nook? Don't get mad, but this culturally sensitive thang can only go so far!

Capo

x, I'm afraid you misunderstood what I wrote (or perhaps I wasn't clear.) The fact that I don't mind the smell (note that I said <I>smell</I>, NOT what what I know it's doing to my lungs) of smoke when I'm in a restaurant, café, or bar in France has nothing to with France, per se. I don't mind the smell of smoke in a restaurant, café, or bar in the U.S. either, whereas I have friends that can't stand the smell of smoke no matter what country they're in. <BR> <BR>No matter where I'm at, I do not like smoke being blown directly in my face. To me, that's not just thoughtless, but extremely rude and uncivil. <BR> <BR>As for not being bothered by the fact that many people in France smoke, what I meant by that is that I don't walk around shaking my head and muttering how "dumb" or "foolish" they all are for choosing to smoke.

Philosophia

Capo, from this and the "getting laid" thread, it's pretty clear that you are, indeed, a libertarian cut of the "no one can boss ME around" cloth, for whom the issues of personal freedom so outweigh the idea of the general good that you think it's someone else's problem if what you do harms them. Your piety about a parent's job being to teach children to have concern about others notwithstanding, libertarianism takes the "natural" human trait of self-interestedness and elevates it to iconic status, which taken to its logical extension is anarchy. Your assumption has to be that being socially responsible must be left entirely to the individual, and that hasn't happened since Cain slew Abel. <BR> <BR>What I find particularly telling about this philosophy is that its apologists always pipe up on the issues of sex, drugs, smoking, drinking, guns, and the "freedom" not to use seat belts or helmets, which suggests something about what's really important to them.

Capo

Philosophia, Re: '...libertarianism takes the "natural" human trait of self-interestedness and elevates it to iconic status,' <BR> <BR>Well, libertarians are -- as I presume, people of <I>any</I> political philosophy are -- not all cut from the same cloth. I don't believe in the "individual über alles" as some libertarians do. In fact, as I noted in my post above, while I adamantly would not support any government attempts to ban/outlaw smoking (or drinking, etc.), per se -- as that's a choice that should be left to the individual -- I do support government attempts to limit <I>where</I> people can smoke. <BR> <BR>We all draw our lines between what's good for the individual and what's good for society in different places. <BR> <BR>Here's one example... <BR> <BR>Many people -- in the U.S. as well as other countries -- happen to feel that forbidding people to marry someone of the same sex is "good for society", that this should NOT be a choice left up to the individual. The Dutch, however, seem to beg to differ about what's "good for society" in this regard since they passed a law last December (effective this Sunday, May 27th, I think) that permits same-sex marriages. <BR> <BR>And another example... <BR> <BR>I've been in the Englischer Garten in Munich -- a major park in the heart of the city -- where people can sunbathe topless, or maybe even nude (this was back in '87, perhaps things have changed since then.) Apparently the good people of Munich, overall, feel that allowing this individual choice hasn't been "bad" for their society. But in the U.S., I'm sure we would and would, therefore, not allow it.

elvira

Re the comment about Americans are more allergic than other nationalities to cigarette smoke: <BR> <BR>I was working in an office (here in the U.S.) where the man who sat directly behind me hated cigarette smoke (cough, cough, wave, wave smoking is so bad for you); he had a little fan he'd face toward me when I lit up (I would "warn" him when I was going to light up so he could start up the fan). Then, the whole city went non-smoking; our office had two smoking areas (two enclosed offices occupied by smokers) and the rest was non-smoking, and this man was beside himself with joy. One day, I smell smoke; I look behind me and a client is smoking at this man's desk. After the client left, I pointed out the no-smoking policy (by the way, the man had borrowed an ashtray from one of the smokers whom he constantly berated for smoking), and this adamant non-smoker responds "well, he's a client, I can't tell him not to smoke here". So, I sez I sez, MY cigarette smoke is harmful to you, your client's isn't? Gee, you need to give me the brand he smokes. Non-smoker was not amused, but never could explain his reasoning.

clairobscur

"I wonder do they not understand the effect (especially in children) or do they not care!?!! " <BR> <BR>More like the latter. The harmful effect are known, there has been intensive advertizing about it (and anyway, it's printed on each cigarette pack). But it's like driving too fast : people know they can have an accident, but do it nevertheless. The risk appear theorical and remote. <BR> <BR>Pregnant women and people who have young children tend to be more cautious though. A lot of them stop smoking or avoid smoking in the immediate surrounding of the child (at least at home). <BR>