Livingit up

Have fun, go with the flow, it's your vacation, quit worrying. Unless you are deathly allergic, the small amount of smoke you inhale during a short vacation will not significantly shorten your life.

Capo

This is only marginally related to the original post/question, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway. <BR> <BR>When were in Rome recently, I'd expected that there would be as much smoking there as I've noticed in Paris. Well, once we got there, neither of us felt this was the case; smoking <I>seemed</I> to be substantially less prevalent than in Paris. <BR> <BR>While talking to a 20-something Roman woman on the train to Arezzo, we mentioned this and she told us that a recent (former? current?) Italian Health Minister had/has made cigarette smoking a major health issue, so we wondered how much of an effect he might have had on people in Rome and elsewhere Italy.

Julie

My husband and I are both allergic to cigarette smoke and still travel extensively in Europe. We returned from Paris last week without any trouble. <BR> <BR>I don't think you'll have too much success asking someone to put out their cigarette, whether or not you're in a "no-smoking" section -- that is simply their right. That said, there are several things you can do to avoid being smoked on unnecessarily. First, try to eat your meals outside or take picnics. At dinner, arrive at your restaurant early, as the French tend to eat later. Many very nice hotels may not have specific "non-smoking" rooms, but we have never had a problem, and in fact have for some reason never found European hotel rooms in any city (including Prague and Budapest!) to be as smoky as many we have found in the states. Though the metro and museums are all non-smoking, you may still run into smokers from time to time -- this is the exception rather than the rule. <BR> <BR>A restaurant we enjoyed was Brasserie Bofinger near the Bastille, which has a real non-smoking section, not just a sign. It's across the streeet from Petite Bofinger, which also has a non-smoking section. <BR> <BR>May I also suggest that if you do find yourself being smoked on unavoidably, try not to escalate it too much. Your child will certainly sense your discomfort and may react to the situation even more negatively than he/she would otherwise. <BR> <BR>Have fun!

StCirq

As a bit of a re-direction of this thread, I disagree that Parisians don't take their children out to dinner, or that you won't find kids in Paris restaurants. I see them all the time. Where have you all been eating?

Mabel

If you and your husband really hate smoke and prefer not to be around it, why are you going to Paris? You will not be able to "truly avoid it". I cannot imagine that dining outdoors amidst the bus and truck fumes is preferable to a bit of tobacco smoke indoors. I lived in Paris for nine years. Perhaps StCirq can provide a list of child-friendly restaurants. I cananot recall ever seeing a small child in a restaurant in Paris, where there are no high chairs, booster seats, or children's menus (except at a few of those touristy places). What makes you think you'll be standing next to people everywhere you going smoking in non-smoking areas. Your best bet for miminizing your exposure to tobacco smoke is to rent an apartment with a strict no-smoking policy, and avoid all public places.

StCirq

Sure, I'd be happy to provide a list of child-friendly restaurants, as well as restaurants where we've encountered other Parisian children as well. They run the gamut from chains to fairly fancy places: <BR> <BR>Any of the Bistro Romain chain restaurants <BR> <BR>La Fontaine de Mars <BR> <BR>L'Auberge de Bressane <BR> <BR>Le Croque au Sel <BR> <BR>Le Bistrot de Papa <BR> <BR>Le Bistrot de Bretheuil (but I don;t like this place, for reasons unrelated to children) <BR> <BR>Il Duomo (on the avenue de la Tour Maubourg in the 7me) <BR> <BR>L'Hippopotamus chain <BR> <BR>Le Relais du Sudouest <BR> <BR>Macéo <BR> <BR>Chez Jenny <BR> <BR>Thoumieux <BR> <BR>Au Pied do Cochon <BR> <BR> <BR>I could go on and on. If you eat only at Michelin-starred places, perhaps you've never encountered children at dinner, but the fact is that teaching children to eat in a restaurant ranks high on the list of things that French parents teach their children, so you'll always find kids in French restaurants learning their restaurant manners. <BR>I don't know how in nine years you never encountered a high chair or booster seat or menu enfant, but believe me, they are prevalent in Paris, and we don't eat at what you refer to as "tourist traps." <BR> <BR>I was just in Paris two weeks ago and ate at several places by myself, which never bothers me in Paris, because eating is assumed to be a wonderful experience whether you're alone or in a group, but everywhere I ate there were children present, no child seats evident that I recall, but plenty of kids and plenty of waiters dealing with special requests for an omelette and frites or steack hâché bien cuit. <BR> <BR>The "menu enfant" thing, by the way, is catching on all over France. Even in the Dordogne now we have "menus enfants," although ours are with foie gras of course instead of a slice of country ham. <BR> <BR> <BR>

James

I visit Paris on business at least twice a year and have done so over 20 years. I rarely frequent Michelin starred restaurants. I have yet to see a Parisian couple dining with a child. With a dog, yes, but with a child, never. As StCirq says, things are changing, but recently I have only seen children in restaurants after 8 p.m. with Americans

Patti Suttle

Gee how sad. I am not a smoker but if I was sitting next to someone (esp. in a NON-smoking section) and I was smoking and they asked me politely to put out my cigarette since they were allergic I would not hesitate for a nano-second to put it out! But, they would have to ask nicely of course. <BR>I can't imagine not trying to help a fellow human being. Who's the ugly American/Frenchmen here? Sorry to hear about that attitude. Culture at all costs? My values are different. I am saddened but will try to keep an open mind.. <BR>Patti

paul

If being near cigarettes concerns you, you should find it intolerable to ever go outdoors. Or do you think all those carbon monoxide emissions from thousands of cars and trucks are not as dangerous to your family as someone's cigarette?

TeeHee

StCirq you really should keep better track of your tall tales. Anyone whose seen your diffuseness on the francophile forum at Delphi knows you returned from France a month ago and this trip did not include any peregrinations to Paris for dining.

another forgetful one

TeeHee, how nice of you to keep careful track of our schedules. I can't quite remember whether I went to the eye doctor two weeks ago or three weeks ago. Please remind me. And what year was it that I went to Portugal? And was it April or May? Oh, and sometimes my alarm clock doesn't go off. I'd appreciate a call at 7:30. <BR>

mac

Well, as this thread concerns France, it seems appropriate to quote the French philosopher and author La Rochefoucauld (1613-80) who viewed selfishness as the mainspring of human behaviour. "We all have strength for the troubles of others" he said. I don't think the Duke distinguished between those whose health troubles relate to being addicted to nicotine or those who health troubles relate to the smoke this addiction generates. So, if we view things according to him, neither side in this debate can claim the moral high ground. <BR> <BR>I'm with those who view this as an interpersonal conflict, not a cultural one. On that note, I don't think it is abusive for Katherine to point out that she has a conflict of interest with smokers. Nor is it abusive on her part simply to ask for someone to comply with a request. It might be abusive to consider such request a demand or a right, but I see no evidence that that is what Katherine's attitude is. <BR> <BR>Ordering someone to stay home ("if you don't like smoking don't go to Europe") amounts to a refusal to negotiate, a refusal to accept that a conflict exists. The justification for giving this order was apparently Katherine's alleged insensitivity to differences. Yet those who gave it were apparently motivated to do so because, not despite, Katherine's pointing out that she was different from many French (and for that matter, many non-French) people in that she doesn't smoke. <BR> <BR>Who says travel doesn't require a sense of irony? <BR>

Joel

Katherine, regarding your most recent question about specific hotels and their smoking policies, while I cannot answer specifically, I'm sure I can solve your basic hotel problem. <BR> <BR>While we were living in France we must've stayed in 50 different hotels for business or pleasure. Neither of us would have tolerated any scent of smoke in a room and we NEVER experienced any. That eliminates the room itself as a problem, imo. <BR> <BR>Here are a couple of approaches to finding the hotel that will meet your needs and using the hotel to remain smoke-free during your stay. <BR>First and least acceptable, check the American chains for their smoking policies. Me, I'd never stay in an American hotel if I was paying to be in Paris, nor would I want to miss the uniqueness of a small French hotel, but it will be easy to find out what their policies are at their Paris hotels just by calling their company 800 number here in the U.S. and you'll have the most chance of finding a smoke-free restaurant for breakfast which should normally be the only meal you'd eat in the hotel. <BR> <BR>My second suggestion, the one I subscribe to, is to opt for a medium to small French hotel. First of all, these hotels are still in the traditional mode of regularly providing the typical French breakfast in your room. That's not room service, that's normal service. They EXPECT to be asked to provide it, but even so, times are changing so double-check at the desk. It's not some sleaze-ball high school drop-out that brings service to you, it's an immaculately attired young woman in the criss-cross starched apron, etc. By that means you will accomplish two things: zero smoke at your hotel (except passing through the lobby) and a real taste of French tradition. <BR> <BR>I really hope you will try this as it opens up most Parisian hotels up to you. It is suitable to any budget.

StCirq

Dear Tee Hee: <BR> <BR>If you are going to make a hobby of keeping track of my schedule, then you might as well get it right. I arrived in Paris on April 16 and departed on April 18. If you knew the name of the hotel I stayed at, you'd be able to confirm that.

clairobscur

"I was wandering how impolite it would be to simply point to the no smoking sign and sk in french whether the person had noticed the sign? " <BR> <BR> <BR> In France, it isn't impolite, and probably several people around you will be pleased seeing you actually ask someone to stop smoking in a non smoking area. But the problem is there's no guarantee that the person will defer to your request....Also, it's not considered as a serious issue (even by non-smokers). <BR> <BR>It's specially true in cafes/restaurants, etc..where sometimes you can see some "non smoking" stickers. <BR> <BR> Actually, a law has been passed several years before, and these place are supposed to all have "non smoking" areas, separated from the smoking area, with regulations about the air volume, etc...But this law never was enforced, the cafes owners were infuriated (their customers were complaining, they couldn't practically respect the norms and keep a smoking area in most cases, etc...), so after two or three months, more or less all non smoking sections dissapeared. <BR> <BR>Quite often, you can see a sticker still in place, with an ashtray just below. People expect a cafe to be a place where you can smoke, so you probably won't have much success asking <BR>someone to stop smoking. Possibly, he will defer, but with the feeling he's making you a favor. <BR> <BR>Cafes/restaurants which actually enforce a non smoking policy are a rarity (your best chances are in the largest ones, brasseries for instance, where they have enough room to create two sections and also in high priced restaurants) <BR> <BR>The metro is another matter. People came to accept you weren't supposed to smoke there, and it certainly wouldn't be impolite to ask someone to stop. Unfortunately, since not smoking is commonly accepted as the norm, people (there's not much of them) who still smoke there are those who don't care at all about other people's opinion or comfort. Most probably, though you'd perfectly right to ask (even in a non that polite way) you'll be ignored or get some rude answer... <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

clairoobscur

"YOu should also be aware that the medical care in France or Europe is not to the same level as in the US. " <BR> <BR>True. Its considered lower in the US than in more or less all other western countries. At least by the WHO, if not by some american posters.... <BR> <BR>France is probably the worst example you could have chosen, since I believe (though not sure) it's ranked first...anyway much higher than the US. <BR> <BR>Language can indeed be an issue, though. If you have some serious problem, there's a privately operated american hospital in Paris. It's a mjor hospital, and able to rivalize with the public ones. And you shouldn't have a problem with language there...

clairobscur

<BR> <BR>Also, the fast-food chains (at least Mc Donalds, but I believe it's the same in the others) atually enforce a non-smoking policy. So, you'll always have this recourse...

????

So even though a restaurant has a non smoking section, they don't enforce it? Why even have one? Do the French see no problem with smoking around babies and small children? I must be mistaken because I was under the impression that France was tightening its restrictions on smoking just as the US did many years ago. I was in London last year, and I seem to recall less smoking than I have seen in years passed.

clairobscur

A restaurant with a real non smoking area will enforce it. What I meant is that a law has been issued some years ago, and non smoking section were supposed to be mandatory. However, it has not been enforced, and after some months, these sections have dissapeared. But quite often, the "no smoking" stickers are still in place, though nobody pays attention to them. <BR> <BR>And concerning the tightened restrictions...yes it's true...but while some of these restrictions came into effect (mostly thoses concerning public buildings and office buildings), those concerning cafes, restaurants and the like definitely didn't. <BR> <BR>On the overall, french people tend to feel more concerned about smoking (it's quite obvious in the behavior in offices or to a lesser extent in private homes), but it's still not considered as a big deal by a lot of people.... <BR> <BR>If you ask someone to stop smoking around your baby/children, this person will probably defer to your request, but it's very unlikely that someone will stop/avoid smoking spontaneously just because there's a children around.

Joel

Quite right, from Clairobscure. I was managing technical organization in France for a few years. Even ten years ago, a group of techs in one of the large common work offices had decided to make their space no-smoking. I did not have enough contact with them to know how enforced it was, but never sensed that the other groups/offices didn't respect it. <BR>It seems to me that, first, France is where the US was in, say, 1990, on public smoking, so you'd still be going against the culture to be too insistent in most public area, especially restaurants... even with the law... for now. <BR>Second, the brands popular in France are very harsh. The smoke is quite "powerful" for lack of a better word. <BR>It strikes me that as politicized as this string instantly became, every culture has the right to be/do what they want. If we visit them, leave the cancer signs at home, don't tell them how they should be in their country. Katherine seems to have asked the question in exactly the right way when she started this string.