Avoiding museums in Italy
Nov 17th, 2019, 04:09 PM
#21
It was a pretty clear and easy question. Not sure why everyone's acting strangely.
Perhpas they want some creative ideas for what to do besides museums. To me a better question is which cities/towns they want to go to in a 10 day trip. What about Italy made them book this trip in the first place? Do they want to get around by train, bus, or rent a car? The gluten free thing they might want to print up some cards in Italian just to be extra safe.
I could say go to Venice then Rome or Florence... maybe visiting a vineyard or winery in between, or staying at a place in the countryside if that is their style. Maybe they'd enjoy a cooking class. I'm not big on museum as with art on the walls but I do enjoy seeing historic homes, castles, churches, cathedrals, stuff like that. There's things like street markets, outdoors fairs, music, dance, theater. Just rattling off things you can do in europe that are not going to art museums.
It's not that hard to throw out some suggestions, when someone has a general question as was posed here.
Perhpas they want some creative ideas for what to do besides museums. To me a better question is which cities/towns they want to go to in a 10 day trip. What about Italy made them book this trip in the first place? Do they want to get around by train, bus, or rent a car? The gluten free thing they might want to print up some cards in Italian just to be extra safe.
I could say go to Venice then Rome or Florence... maybe visiting a vineyard or winery in between, or staying at a place in the countryside if that is their style. Maybe they'd enjoy a cooking class. I'm not big on museum as with art on the walls but I do enjoy seeing historic homes, castles, churches, cathedrals, stuff like that. There's things like street markets, outdoors fairs, music, dance, theater. Just rattling off things you can do in europe that are not going to art museums.
It's not that hard to throw out some suggestions, when someone has a general question as was posed here.
Nov 18th, 2019, 04:05 AM
#22
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 49,560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<This has taken a very bizarre twist.>>
I agree, but let's face it, it was a really bizarre question, one of the most bizarre I've seen on a travel board. Like asking how do I avoid beef or concerts or crypts or shellfish or coffee or skyscrapers or........most travelers are looking for ways to FIND things. Avoiding them is a piece of cake unless you're trying to avoid people or sidewalks or food or sleep or transportation or air. I find it disturbing that a trip could be planned around negatives instead of positives.
What the OP hasn't mentioned is why this trip, and where, and what their positive interests are, as in what they want to see, and where, as opposed to what they don't want to see. No one is going to lure and lasso them into a museum against their free will. So what DO they want to do? They haven't said.
The gluten-free issue is a non-starter. Europeans are all over GF goods these days.
I understand anyone heading to Italy mentioning that they don't speak Italian, but no need to badger them about it and no need for them to be worried. It is indeed, a very simple language, and learning enough phrases to get by and charm the inevitably over-thankful Italians isn't exactly a chore. There are dozens of websites these days where you can practice simple language skills.
But the question remains - what DO these people want to do, other than avoid museums?
I agree, but let's face it, it was a really bizarre question, one of the most bizarre I've seen on a travel board. Like asking how do I avoid beef or concerts or crypts or shellfish or coffee or skyscrapers or........most travelers are looking for ways to FIND things. Avoiding them is a piece of cake unless you're trying to avoid people or sidewalks or food or sleep or transportation or air. I find it disturbing that a trip could be planned around negatives instead of positives.
What the OP hasn't mentioned is why this trip, and where, and what their positive interests are, as in what they want to see, and where, as opposed to what they don't want to see. No one is going to lure and lasso them into a museum against their free will. So what DO they want to do? They haven't said.
The gluten-free issue is a non-starter. Europeans are all over GF goods these days.
I understand anyone heading to Italy mentioning that they don't speak Italian, but no need to badger them about it and no need for them to be worried. It is indeed, a very simple language, and learning enough phrases to get by and charm the inevitably over-thankful Italians isn't exactly a chore. There are dozens of websites these days where you can practice simple language skills.
But the question remains - what DO these people want to do, other than avoid museums?
Nov 18th, 2019, 04:42 AM
#23
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never been to Italy so I can't make suggestions here, but it seems to me perfectly reasonable to come to this forum and ask for suggestions of places to visit and things to do which do not involve endless museum visits.
I know many of the itineraries that appear here list numerous museums that have to be seen, preferably 4 in a single day, but not everyone wants to visit museums, or feel like they are on a school trip.
OP wants a holiday with her daughter and came looking for suggestions. She could perhaps have worded it differently but seriously? Is there no one here who can suggest places to visit other than the big cities and tourist trail regulars?
SHe sais she doesn't speak Italian, not that she is an ignorant person. Most people visiting Italy speak no Italian and yet they survive and have a wonderful time and the Italians don't scream about how rude they are.
If you have never visited a country, especially one with a reputation for wheat based meals, it is reasonable to ask about the availablty of gluten free food.
I know many of the itineraries that appear here list numerous museums that have to be seen, preferably 4 in a single day, but not everyone wants to visit museums, or feel like they are on a school trip.
OP wants a holiday with her daughter and came looking for suggestions. She could perhaps have worded it differently but seriously? Is there no one here who can suggest places to visit other than the big cities and tourist trail regulars?
SHe sais she doesn't speak Italian, not that she is an ignorant person. Most people visiting Italy speak no Italian and yet they survive and have a wonderful time and the Italians don't scream about how rude they are.
If you have never visited a country, especially one with a reputation for wheat based meals, it is reasonable to ask about the availablty of gluten free food.
Nov 18th, 2019, 09:38 AM
#25
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 49,560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe I'm just being pedantic, but to me there is a big difference between saying we are going to X, Y, and Z and would like to know what we can do that doesn't involve museums, and posting how do we avoid museums. Of course there are many people here who can, and do, suggest places to visit other than the big cities and the regular tourist spots - people do it daily. You'd have to be blind not to notice how many well-traveled people offer their insights into places well off the tourist tracks, or who explain in detail how to visit the main spots with unique perspectives.
The OP got plenty of useful advice about GF eating and speaking Italian.
The OP got plenty of useful advice about GF eating and speaking Italian.
Nov 18th, 2019, 09:38 AM
#26
It sounds like she was checking other opinions on a certain part of the trip.
Maybe someone told her the trip was a bad idea because she would hate all of the museums. Maybe someone was drug through Italy with endless museum visits.
I had a friend who was told she "couldn't go" to France because she didn't like wine. I asked who the heck would be checking to see what she drank and who the heck would care?
People tell other people all sorts of insane/ bizarre things about traveling. I've been told some whoppers by other Fodorites. It happens.
"I know she will not want to spend her time in museums. Neither of us has ever been to Italy, though I have traveled independently in the U.K. and also made several guided trips to Africa. We do not speak any Italian. She loves wine and is gluten free--not by choice. Any suggestions?"
Others have asked about gluten-free options.
Others have asked about needing to speak Italian (or French, etc).
Nothing about either of those would be considered "bizarre".
Maybe someone told her the trip was a bad idea because she would hate all of the museums. Maybe someone was drug through Italy with endless museum visits.
I had a friend who was told she "couldn't go" to France because she didn't like wine. I asked who the heck would be checking to see what she drank and who the heck would care?
People tell other people all sorts of insane/ bizarre things about traveling. I've been told some whoppers by other Fodorites. It happens.
"I know she will not want to spend her time in museums. Neither of us has ever been to Italy, though I have traveled independently in the U.K. and also made several guided trips to Africa. We do not speak any Italian. She loves wine and is gluten free--not by choice. Any suggestions?"
Others have asked about gluten-free options.
Others have asked about needing to speak Italian (or French, etc).
Nothing about either of those would be considered "bizarre".
Last edited by starrs; Nov 18th, 2019 at 09:41 AM.
Nov 18th, 2019, 10:36 AM
#27
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be fair, if you look at a conventional Italy guidebook, there’s an awful lot of discussion about art and museums. even my eyes glaze over, eventually, and I specifically travel for museums.
there are a few must sees, though. Go to capitoline museum, for sure. Boboli gardens is another (Florence). A lot of the churches qualify as well. Capuchin crypt is amazing.
Have your daughter look at atlas obscura and pick out some stuff she’d like to see.
I’d skip the Vatican, personally. But a lot of people want to see Sistine Chapel
there are a few must sees, though. Go to capitoline museum, for sure. Boboli gardens is another (Florence). A lot of the churches qualify as well. Capuchin crypt is amazing.
Have your daughter look at atlas obscura and pick out some stuff she’d like to see.
I’d skip the Vatican, personally. But a lot of people want to see Sistine Chapel
Nov 18th, 2019, 10:49 AM
#28
To be fair, if you look at a conventional Italy guidebook, there’s an awful lot of discussion about art and museums. even my eyes glaze over, eventually, and I specifically travel for museums.
...I’d skip the Vatican, personally. But a lot of people want to see Sistine Chapel
...I’d skip the Vatican, personally. But a lot of people want to see Sistine Chapel
And I agree again. I really wanted to see the Sistine Chapel and the incredibly rude crowds ruined it for me. If your family/ tour members don't want to be there PLEASE ask them to move on and wait for you outside. The experience was a real disappointment for me.
Nov 18th, 2019, 05:56 PM
#32
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"there are a few must sees, though."
On the contrary: I don't think there should be any must sees. The pushing of must sees/top 10 sights by guidebooks, blogs, travel agencies is a huge contributor to the overcrowding problem at major sites. At almost any major site or museum of the world thare are way too many people who are only there because it is a must see, but actally show very little interest in what they see, many are actually utterly bored. A typical remark you can hear from many people after visiting the Acropolis: just a heap of broken marble. I say: OK, but that is not a secret, you should've known that before you go and if that's all what the Acropolis means for you why don't you skip it? Oh, but you HAVE to see it. I wish more people would be as honest with themselves as my father who says anytime we wanted to drag him into a museum: I've seen the Louvre, they can't show me anything new.
The reason for this focus on art and history is the roots of modern travel in the Grand Tour when the wealthy aristocrats since the 18th century and later wealthy bourgeois in the 19th century embarked on journeys around Europe. Thanks to the education of that time most of them were well versed and actually interested in the Classics, history, art, architecture. Fast forward to the 21st century and you can see a much wider range of travellers from all walks of life who have very little knowledge of this stuff and that includes even most educated people.
At least the daughter of OP is a honest and independent young woman and doesn't bow to the pressure. If all travellers would be like her, the rest of us could take in places like the Sixtine Chapel in silence and awe and with less crowds.
Travel has become a victim of its own success (aka Overtourism). Here's what to do about it. (Editorial) | Minor Sights
Famous for Being Famous - The Paris Hiltons of Travel (Editorial) | Minor Sights
On the contrary: I don't think there should be any must sees. The pushing of must sees/top 10 sights by guidebooks, blogs, travel agencies is a huge contributor to the overcrowding problem at major sites. At almost any major site or museum of the world thare are way too many people who are only there because it is a must see, but actally show very little interest in what they see, many are actually utterly bored. A typical remark you can hear from many people after visiting the Acropolis: just a heap of broken marble. I say: OK, but that is not a secret, you should've known that before you go and if that's all what the Acropolis means for you why don't you skip it? Oh, but you HAVE to see it. I wish more people would be as honest with themselves as my father who says anytime we wanted to drag him into a museum: I've seen the Louvre, they can't show me anything new.
The reason for this focus on art and history is the roots of modern travel in the Grand Tour when the wealthy aristocrats since the 18th century and later wealthy bourgeois in the 19th century embarked on journeys around Europe. Thanks to the education of that time most of them were well versed and actually interested in the Classics, history, art, architecture. Fast forward to the 21st century and you can see a much wider range of travellers from all walks of life who have very little knowledge of this stuff and that includes even most educated people.
At least the daughter of OP is a honest and independent young woman and doesn't bow to the pressure. If all travellers would be like her, the rest of us could take in places like the Sixtine Chapel in silence and awe and with less crowds.
Travel has become a victim of its own success (aka Overtourism). Here's what to do about it. (Editorial) | Minor Sights
Famous for Being Famous - The Paris Hiltons of Travel (Editorial) | Minor Sights
Last edited by BDKR; Nov 18th, 2019 at 06:52 PM.
Nov 18th, 2019, 07:08 PM
#34
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whether museums, art, sculpture, whatever float your boat or not, I think it helps to make a more satisfying trip if there is some sort of thread or an agenda running through it. So often one sees posts saying “we only want to spend two nights in [city] because we only want to see the main sights”.
There is really no set of main sights anywhere. If you go to Paris and work as a structural engineer, the Eiffel tower and various bridges and aquaducts might work; if you go as a specialist in fashion retail, Gallerie Lafayette or Printemps would be on the agenda.
I made a trip to Venice pretty much focussed on the architecture of Carlo Scarpa, so I visited all his work in Venice, some nine or ten places, and they did include a museum, the Accademia where he did some interventions in the ‘50s. It also included a mausoleum for the Brion family in Altivole and the Canova museum in Possagno, also the Castelvecchio in Verona where Scarpa designed the interior.
So my rambles took me to several museums, but these were really a collateral bonus while I was walking around Scarpa, coming to know his architectural handwriting. I know his work well enough that I can now recognise the work of his students.
You could design a similar trip if your interest say was photography. Buy a book of the photographs of a celebrated photographer and visit the places where the images were taken, try to get inside the head of the person behind the lens. Or maybe in Venice, visit places mentioned in novels, why did that bit of action take place on Torcello rather than the Lido. Books by Donna Leon, Philip Jones and Greg Dowling lend themselves to this kind of exploration.
Just don’t expect them to lead you to the Main Sights.
There is really no set of main sights anywhere. If you go to Paris and work as a structural engineer, the Eiffel tower and various bridges and aquaducts might work; if you go as a specialist in fashion retail, Gallerie Lafayette or Printemps would be on the agenda.
I made a trip to Venice pretty much focussed on the architecture of Carlo Scarpa, so I visited all his work in Venice, some nine or ten places, and they did include a museum, the Accademia where he did some interventions in the ‘50s. It also included a mausoleum for the Brion family in Altivole and the Canova museum in Possagno, also the Castelvecchio in Verona where Scarpa designed the interior.
So my rambles took me to several museums, but these were really a collateral bonus while I was walking around Scarpa, coming to know his architectural handwriting. I know his work well enough that I can now recognise the work of his students.
You could design a similar trip if your interest say was photography. Buy a book of the photographs of a celebrated photographer and visit the places where the images were taken, try to get inside the head of the person behind the lens. Or maybe in Venice, visit places mentioned in novels, why did that bit of action take place on Torcello rather than the Lido. Books by Donna Leon, Philip Jones and Greg Dowling lend themselves to this kind of exploration.
Just don’t expect them to lead you to the Main Sights.
Nov 18th, 2019, 07:09 PM
#35
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Except the idea of a classical education isn’t dead. I don’t care what walk of life someone comes from, they’ve probably studied Pompeii, Ancient Greece, Da Vinci, Michelangelo in a school. If not extensively, they have a passing familiarity with those things through western popular culture. It’s often why people go to Europe. And you don’t know what you don’t know—I’ve taken friends to museums where they think they’ll be bored, but in the end, they love it because it did fit with their interests.
I do agree about the “main sights”! I don’t think that really exists anymore and you need a certain level of interest to engage with something. I love churches, but not for religious reasons—architecture, and stories.
I actually think the reason you see bored folks on their phones in the louvre is that because families don’t split up on vacation. I’m bored out of my mind after the first hour on the ski slopes or in a mall—my mother has the same reaction in the bookstore. And the type of exhibit comes into it too—I don't think even museum lovers cover every exhibit of the Louvre with the same interest. I don’t, at least. I no longer take general museum tours because usually 75% of a general tour is not of interest to me.
I do agree about the “main sights”! I don’t think that really exists anymore and you need a certain level of interest to engage with something. I love churches, but not for religious reasons—architecture, and stories.
I actually think the reason you see bored folks on their phones in the louvre is that because families don’t split up on vacation. I’m bored out of my mind after the first hour on the ski slopes or in a mall—my mother has the same reaction in the bookstore. And the type of exhibit comes into it too—I don't think even museum lovers cover every exhibit of the Louvre with the same interest. I don’t, at least. I no longer take general museum tours because usually 75% of a general tour is not of interest to me.
Last edited by marvelousmouse; Nov 18th, 2019 at 07:11 PM.
Nov 18th, 2019, 10:32 PM
#36
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 1,742
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's a museum? No No hear me out!
If you're talking art museums they can be "classical" or modern or a mix.
It can be a historical museum. The Colosseum and forum complex is an outdoor museum of sorts But there are indoor museums housing finds.
It can be a car museum. This is Italy
It can be a fashion museum. There are even shoe museums
There are clock and watch museums
There are nautical museums
Yes there are photographic museums
It's not a question of a classical education. I need a great deal of caffeine to survive many of the "classical" museums but have no problem with many of the more modern ones. A couple years back the sofia reina in Madrid had three small Strand photos hidden in a corner. Kept me occupied -)
Saying you want to avoid museums is like saying you want to avoid food. You may dislike or be allergic to something but there MUST be something you like.
If you're talking art museums they can be "classical" or modern or a mix.
It can be a historical museum. The Colosseum and forum complex is an outdoor museum of sorts But there are indoor museums housing finds.
It can be a car museum. This is Italy
It can be a fashion museum. There are even shoe museums
There are clock and watch museums
There are nautical museums
Yes there are photographic museums
It's not a question of a classical education. I need a great deal of caffeine to survive many of the "classical" museums but have no problem with many of the more modern ones. A couple years back the sofia reina in Madrid had three small Strand photos hidden in a corner. Kept me occupied -)
Saying you want to avoid museums is like saying you want to avoid food. You may dislike or be allergic to something but there MUST be something you like.
Nov 18th, 2019, 11:18 PM
#37
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“If you're talking art museums they can be "classical" or modern or a mix.”
We visited the Museum of Contemporary Art in Nice two weeks ago.
At times I struggle to take some of the pieces seriously but I have to say it was inspirational for my 14 year old. He placed some of the pieces into an interpretive context which was more plausible than that offered by the artist themselves. It was quite thought provoking.
We couldn’t resist ending with some humour, we studied the large mobile electric heater in the corner for a few minutes. Some fool actially joined us and thought it was an exhibit, we thought what we achieved was art in itself. Who knows?
We visited the Museum of Contemporary Art in Nice two weeks ago.
At times I struggle to take some of the pieces seriously but I have to say it was inspirational for my 14 year old. He placed some of the pieces into an interpretive context which was more plausible than that offered by the artist themselves. It was quite thought provoking.
We couldn’t resist ending with some humour, we studied the large mobile electric heater in the corner for a few minutes. Some fool actially joined us and thought it was an exhibit, we thought what we achieved was art in itself. Who knows?
Nov 19th, 2019, 03:09 AM
#38
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The OP's question is broad so difficult to be helpful but I don't think it's bizarre at all. Rightly or wrongly, I think a lot of people think museums when they think of Italy. Often museums will fill a lot of time for first time visitors to different parts of Italy. So I think it's helpful to state that this is not an interest. Better than people wasting time listing out all the museums to hit.
The only bizarre thing was the lecturing on how to behave because they are 'North American' - behave like your parents would, don't shout at people, or order them around, etc.
The only bizarre thing was the lecturing on how to behave because they are 'North American' - behave like your parents would, don't shout at people, or order them around, etc.
Nov 19th, 2019, 06:38 AM
#39
You may dislike or be allergic to something but there MUST be something you like.
Why? Why must there be some kind of museum you like? I just don't understand judging other people's interests in travel or elsewhere in life.
Maybe I hate golf, or classical music, or museums. Why is this a bad thing? There's plenty of other things to do in Italy. And no it is not like "food" which you need to survive. I've never heard of anyone dying from lack of museum time.
Why? Why must there be some kind of museum you like? I just don't understand judging other people's interests in travel or elsewhere in life.
Maybe I hate golf, or classical music, or museums. Why is this a bad thing? There's plenty of other things to do in Italy. And no it is not like "food" which you need to survive. I've never heard of anyone dying from lack of museum time.
Nov 19th, 2019, 06:53 AM
#40
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 49,560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<
You may dislike or be allergic to something but there MUST be something you like.
Why? Why must there be some kind of museum you like?>>
He didn't say that. He said there must be SOMETHING you like. It wasn't a reference to museums.
You may dislike or be allergic to something but there MUST be something you like.
Why? Why must there be some kind of museum you like?>>
He didn't say that. He said there must be SOMETHING you like. It wasn't a reference to museums.
