Au Revoir: Those Perfect Fruit and Veg
Nov 13th, 2008, 12:13 PM
#21
<<Cheers - too bad about your Spurs. Condolences.>>
huh???
18 goals in 5 matches and we beat liverpool last night 4-2.
harry reknapp walks on water.
What do you grow besides kale? we have some lovely leeks fit for any EC dinner table and the fag-end of some mixed leaves and salads, and the tomatoes in the polytunnel have just about finished. loads of brassicas but i only put them in a month ago so they won't be much before march - I've not grown kale.
can you carry on growing through the winter? - here in Cornwall we have trouble with bugs etc. because it never gets really cold. [famous last words!]
regards, ann
huh???
18 goals in 5 matches and we beat liverpool last night 4-2.
harry reknapp walks on water.
What do you grow besides kale? we have some lovely leeks fit for any EC dinner table and the fag-end of some mixed leaves and salads, and the tomatoes in the polytunnel have just about finished. loads of brassicas but i only put them in a month ago so they won't be much before march - I've not grown kale.
can you carry on growing through the winter? - here in Cornwall we have trouble with bugs etc. because it never gets really cold. [famous last words!]
regards, ann
Nov 13th, 2008, 12:25 PM
#22
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Dear ann:
pardon my Spurs misstep - a few weeks ago TOUT London had a Readers question that suggested the Spurs were sad sacks and i posted and most agreed they were
must have been a miracle at White Hart Lane?
Kale you can grow all year in your place - here we have cold winters where nothing grows though on a rare winter Kale may survive - very hearty and very nutritious and prolific. I use it in stir fries or eat it raw.
In my plot i grow all kinds of tomatoes - the real reason i have the plot - fresh tomatoes are to kill for. and various peppers, zucchini, Swiss Chard - similarly hardy like kale - cucumbers - chives - yellow squash, peas - just love them - eat them in the garden mainly before getting back. But my plot is not that big and live in condo with tiny backyard - where i grow parsley (will survive many winters, have a prolific grapevine, more kale and even eat the dandelion greens)
I envy you having a proper garden and plastic tunnel, etc. Just feels so good to grown and pick my own veggies. I buy others mainly from the local farmers market though now they are down to about just cabbages, carrots (often deformed), new (now old) potatoes and brussels sprouts).
I am surprised you have a problem with bugs in winter!
Go spurs!
pardon my Spurs misstep - a few weeks ago TOUT London had a Readers question that suggested the Spurs were sad sacks and i posted and most agreed they were
must have been a miracle at White Hart Lane?
Kale you can grow all year in your place - here we have cold winters where nothing grows though on a rare winter Kale may survive - very hearty and very nutritious and prolific. I use it in stir fries or eat it raw.
In my plot i grow all kinds of tomatoes - the real reason i have the plot - fresh tomatoes are to kill for. and various peppers, zucchini, Swiss Chard - similarly hardy like kale - cucumbers - chives - yellow squash, peas - just love them - eat them in the garden mainly before getting back. But my plot is not that big and live in condo with tiny backyard - where i grow parsley (will survive many winters, have a prolific grapevine, more kale and even eat the dandelion greens)
I envy you having a proper garden and plastic tunnel, etc. Just feels so good to grown and pick my own veggies. I buy others mainly from the local farmers market though now they are down to about just cabbages, carrots (often deformed), new (now old) potatoes and brussels sprouts).
I am surprised you have a problem with bugs in winter!
Go spurs!
Nov 13th, 2008, 12:53 PM
#23
pal,
you make me feel guilty for not using my "vast" plot more effectively.
but I'm trying harder this year - the peas and broad beans are already in for next season. and I too have great parsley.
the trouble with the bugs and fungus diseases is that it never gets cold enough to kill them off.
OTOH being able to work outside of Feb in a t-shirt is a great joy, even if you can only do it once a year!
<<must have been a miracle at White Hart Lane?>>
yep he's called Harry Redknap. proof that miracles do happen. anyone got the phone no. for the Vatican?
regards, ann
you make me feel guilty for not using my "vast" plot more effectively.
but I'm trying harder this year - the peas and broad beans are already in for next season. and I too have great parsley.
the trouble with the bugs and fungus diseases is that it never gets cold enough to kill them off.
OTOH being able to work outside of Feb in a t-shirt is a great joy, even if you can only do it once a year!
<<must have been a miracle at White Hart Lane?>>
yep he's called Harry Redknap. proof that miracles do happen. anyone got the phone no. for the Vatican?
regards, ann
Nov 13th, 2008, 12:59 PM
#24
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"My local organic shop always seems to have misshaped veg on sale"
For retailers - organic or not - there are three kinds of fruit or veg.:
Class 1. Obeys the rules
Class 2: obeys special rules allowing slight blemishes, and ought to be marked "Class 2". I SUSPECT the Dutch enforce this more sensibly than some of the pillocks in Britain
Anything else: can't be sold retail or in markets. Chains are obsessive about this, because there's nothing the Hitlers in local authorities love doing more than prosecuting chains. And it's the store manager, not the honcho in head office, who can get individually prosecuted.
Like everything about the EU, this whole thing can get misunderstood. The EU has, till recently, been all about destroying barriers to free trade within Europe. Since, say, Germany had one set of rules for what could be sold (many of them about uncontroversial stuff like how much pesticide residue was acceptable) and, say, France had another, the only way you could get assent to free movement was to create gold-plated common rules that include every idiocy from every member.
Apparently, the farming countries were in favour of keeping the rules. They're a great way of keeping out REALLY undesirable produce - like the terrific stuff the Ukrainians grow for half the cost.
Essentially, what were designed to stimulate an open EU market (and succeeded brilliantly) now create a Rule Book Curtain around the EU which few foreign veg can penetrate.
For retailers - organic or not - there are three kinds of fruit or veg.:
Class 1. Obeys the rules
Class 2: obeys special rules allowing slight blemishes, and ought to be marked "Class 2". I SUSPECT the Dutch enforce this more sensibly than some of the pillocks in Britain
Anything else: can't be sold retail or in markets. Chains are obsessive about this, because there's nothing the Hitlers in local authorities love doing more than prosecuting chains. And it's the store manager, not the honcho in head office, who can get individually prosecuted.
Like everything about the EU, this whole thing can get misunderstood. The EU has, till recently, been all about destroying barriers to free trade within Europe. Since, say, Germany had one set of rules for what could be sold (many of them about uncontroversial stuff like how much pesticide residue was acceptable) and, say, France had another, the only way you could get assent to free movement was to create gold-plated common rules that include every idiocy from every member.
Apparently, the farming countries were in favour of keeping the rules. They're a great way of keeping out REALLY undesirable produce - like the terrific stuff the Ukrainians grow for half the cost.
Essentially, what were designed to stimulate an open EU market (and succeeded brilliantly) now create a Rule Book Curtain around the EU which few foreign veg can penetrate.
Nov 13th, 2008, 01:02 PM
#25
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The article said that one worry about easing the rules could end up with individual countries (once again i guess) setting up their individual rules - though i do not see how that can be done
unless they just tell Brusselscrats to mind their own business?
unless they just tell Brusselscrats to mind their own business?
Nov 13th, 2008, 01:13 PM
#26
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<i>Come to think of it i'm not sure those Avocados i bought 5 for 1 euro recently at Paris' Marche Allegre could possible have met any standards.</i>
Ahh, the curse of the European avocado. I always buy at least twice as many avocados as I need, as at least half will be rotten inside. Not sure what the problem is, as I have no luck with European avocados.
As for the rest of the stuff, bear in mind that misshapen vegetables could always be sold, so long as they were sold for "further processing". I gather that it was up to local authorities as to whether they enforced that provision.
Ahh, the curse of the European avocado. I always buy at least twice as many avocados as I need, as at least half will be rotten inside. Not sure what the problem is, as I have no luck with European avocados.
As for the rest of the stuff, bear in mind that misshapen vegetables could always be sold, so long as they were sold for "further processing". I gather that it was up to local authorities as to whether they enforced that provision.
Nov 13th, 2008, 05:50 PM
#29
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<i>Are you hinting that those market days in Provence are stocked with Israeli produce?</i>
Most of the market vendors in France pick up the products at a central location within their region. In essence they are ambulatory green grocers, of fish mongers, or whatever. The produce may be fresher than in the grocery store because it is in the interest of the vendor to sell off that day's product and to pick up a fresh delivery for the next day's market.
Of course there are exceptions to the general rule, particularly when it comes to meat products and cheeses. But early stone fruit comes from Spain, avocados come from Israel or Chile, and it is all labeled accordingly. The market is as internationalized as in the States. If items cannot be found in the provinces but can be found in Paris or other big cities, it is because there are no buyers. We discovered that green onions do not exist in the Dordogne.
Most of the market vendors in France pick up the products at a central location within their region. In essence they are ambulatory green grocers, of fish mongers, or whatever. The produce may be fresher than in the grocery store because it is in the interest of the vendor to sell off that day's product and to pick up a fresh delivery for the next day's market.
Of course there are exceptions to the general rule, particularly when it comes to meat products and cheeses. But early stone fruit comes from Spain, avocados come from Israel or Chile, and it is all labeled accordingly. The market is as internationalized as in the States. If items cannot be found in the provinces but can be found in Paris or other big cities, it is because there are no buyers. We discovered that green onions do not exist in the Dordogne.
Nov 13th, 2008, 05:54 PM
#30
read the book anyway. but here's a bit of it. Sadly this highly respected writer/teacher died , never to see her work published in English and other tongues.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/141845.html
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/141845.html
Nov 14th, 2008, 06:13 AM
#31
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Flanneur: At the store level when non-conforming fruits or vegs are tossed out what happens to them
not tipped in the garbage i hope since they technically can't be sold but are still healthy
Here and in many parts of the States food gathering groups pick up such produce or products beyond the sell by date, etc. and give them to food banks
Anyway this is one area to me the Brusselscrats should get out of - cosmetic looks of fruit and veg and let the marketplace set the rules and the consumer buy what they want, slightly deformed or not.
I regularly buy seconds of bananas - darkening skins but still good at my local supermarket - as i understand it these bananas would have to be tossed in the EU?
Regulations should be only to insure food is healthy to eat - not rotten, etc.
not tipped in the garbage i hope since they technically can't be sold but are still healthy
Here and in many parts of the States food gathering groups pick up such produce or products beyond the sell by date, etc. and give them to food banks
Anyway this is one area to me the Brusselscrats should get out of - cosmetic looks of fruit and veg and let the marketplace set the rules and the consumer buy what they want, slightly deformed or not.
I regularly buy seconds of bananas - darkening skins but still good at my local supermarket - as i understand it these bananas would have to be tossed in the EU?
Regulations should be only to insure food is healthy to eat - not rotten, etc.
Nov 14th, 2008, 06:19 AM
#32
Nah, the standards came from the needs of the professional buyers to know what they were getting. This drove the supermarkets to show only perfect mounds of perfect fruit so the public wanted what they could see not what they could taste.
Every time if there is a chance to dumb down the human race does it.
Anyway when the EU were looking for rules they came across these and said, lets impelment them. So when the ruels go away nothing changes. Still perfect round fruit
Every time if there is a chance to dumb down the human race does it.
Anyway when the EU were looking for rules they came across these and said, lets impelment them. So when the ruels go away nothing changes. Still perfect round fruit
Nov 14th, 2008, 06:22 AM
#33
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About the computer-selected perfect apples, I bet they were for sale in Japan. The Japanese pay a huge premium for perfect looking fruit.
There's a couple of stores here in Seattle that specialize in selling, at a cut-rate price, fruit and vegetables too ripe for the supermarkets. So we go there if we need something really ripe.
There's a couple of stores here in Seattle that specialize in selling, at a cut-rate price, fruit and vegetables too ripe for the supermarkets. So we go there if we need something really ripe.
Nov 14th, 2008, 06:57 AM
#34
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bilbo - we (U.S.) have no such rules that i am aware of on how fruit and veggies look when on sale
and yes every supermarket seems to have nothing but the most perfect looking stuff
no cumbersome rules needed to produce what a good marketer would do anywhere - make their wares look the best as possible - i often see staff dusting off the apples to make their shine brighter, etc.
and yes every supermarket seems to have nothing but the most perfect looking stuff
no cumbersome rules needed to produce what a good marketer would do anywhere - make their wares look the best as possible - i often see staff dusting off the apples to make their shine brighter, etc.
Nov 14th, 2008, 08:04 AM
#35
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loads of brassicas but i only put them in a month ago so they won't be much before march>
annhigh - brassicas??? i could google it i guess but fun to guess what this winter crop could be - have never heard of brassicas before but i figure must be a name for some crop we also have?
Cabbages?
beets?
a root crop?
annhigh - brassicas??? i could google it i guess but fun to guess what this winter crop could be - have never heard of brassicas before but i figure must be a name for some crop we also have?
Cabbages?
beets?
a root crop?
Nov 14th, 2008, 08:44 AM
#36
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"I regularly buy seconds of bananas"
You're confusing two completely different things.
The EU has (or is alleged to have, because I can't be arsed checking) a rule about how curvy a banana has to be before it can be put on sale. That rule was created to stop individual countries using their own rules to prevent intra-EU trade (the whole point of the EU). The EU has no rule about when an overipe banana becomes unsellable - and can't, because that's no damn business of the EU.
Individual countries, or provinces, have rules about food safety: spuds that have gone green (through excess exposure to light through being on a shelf too long) are dangerous, so most juridictions ban them, for example. But that's got nothing to do with intra-EU trade, so it's ultra the EU's vires.
Your "seconds" are fruit that have been in the store too long. Dealing with produce about to start looking manky is a more common problem in the US than in Europe, since US retailers have this thing about big produce displays in shops with too few customers to buy them. Europeans solve the problem typically by having fewer shops than the US, so in-store wastage just doesn't happen as often. Though not being able to find an avocado on a Sunday afternoon does.
As for the US has no similar rules. Are you seriously telling me California allows whatever oranges Mexico wants to send into the country onto Ralphs' shelves? Bloody hell: it won't even let the Mexican truck drivers in.
Or rather, in league with of all people the Teamsters, it's trying to sabotage a trivial Federal experiment to let Mexicans drive a few hundred feet into the US. If you want rules that destroy commerce within a free trade area, America's the place to find them.
You're confusing two completely different things.
The EU has (or is alleged to have, because I can't be arsed checking) a rule about how curvy a banana has to be before it can be put on sale. That rule was created to stop individual countries using their own rules to prevent intra-EU trade (the whole point of the EU). The EU has no rule about when an overipe banana becomes unsellable - and can't, because that's no damn business of the EU.
Individual countries, or provinces, have rules about food safety: spuds that have gone green (through excess exposure to light through being on a shelf too long) are dangerous, so most juridictions ban them, for example. But that's got nothing to do with intra-EU trade, so it's ultra the EU's vires.
Your "seconds" are fruit that have been in the store too long. Dealing with produce about to start looking manky is a more common problem in the US than in Europe, since US retailers have this thing about big produce displays in shops with too few customers to buy them. Europeans solve the problem typically by having fewer shops than the US, so in-store wastage just doesn't happen as often. Though not being able to find an avocado on a Sunday afternoon does.
As for the US has no similar rules. Are you seriously telling me California allows whatever oranges Mexico wants to send into the country onto Ralphs' shelves? Bloody hell: it won't even let the Mexican truck drivers in.
Or rather, in league with of all people the Teamsters, it's trying to sabotage a trivial Federal experiment to let Mexicans drive a few hundred feet into the US. If you want rules that destroy commerce within a free trade area, America's the place to find them.
Nov 14th, 2008, 01:58 PM
#37
<<annhigh - brassicas??? i could google it i guess but fun to guess what this winter crop could be - have never heard of brassicas before but i figure must be a name for some crop we also have?>>
LOL pal, "brassica" is the generic term we use here in the UK for all members of the cabbage family - cabbages [obviously] your kale, brussel sprouts, broccoli [what you call calabrese] and cauliflower. I think it includes some root veg as well such as swede [rudibaka to you].
don't you have a similar term in the US?
regards, ann
LOL pal, "brassica" is the generic term we use here in the UK for all members of the cabbage family - cabbages [obviously] your kale, brussel sprouts, broccoli [what you call calabrese] and cauliflower. I think it includes some root veg as well such as swede [rudibaka to you].
don't you have a similar term in the US?
regards, ann
Nov 14th, 2008, 04:32 PM
#38
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The only common term used in the US that comes to mind is "the cruciferous vegetables" - - and I think that only scientists use the term.
Best wishes,
Rex
oh... and p.s. - - kale? in the "cabbage" family? I don't think so...
Best wishes,
Rex
oh... and p.s. - - kale? in the "cabbage" family? I don't think so...
Nov 14th, 2008, 05:14 PM
#39
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Okay - - I am dead wrong about kale.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruciferous_vegetables
for a less interesting read...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassicaceae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruciferous_vegetables
for a less interesting read...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassicaceae
Nov 15th, 2008, 02:29 AM
#40
Hi Rex,
you can usually tell by the distinctive smell that cooking brassicas give off.
Even that posh nosh cavolo nero [italian black kale] is a humble cabbage.
if you are growing veg, this sort of info is useful when you want to rotate crops round your patch, as different types have different needs eg brassicas need lime.
regards, ann
you can usually tell by the distinctive smell that cooking brassicas give off.
Even that posh nosh cavolo nero [italian black kale] is a humble cabbage.
if you are growing veg, this sort of info is useful when you want to rotate crops round your patch, as different types have different needs eg brassicas need lime.
regards, ann
