amelia

Oh well, as one who posted the original question, I need to share part of the blame.

Look, I was raised on "Europe on $5 a Day" and was fortunate to have budget-minded, thrifty but unmonied parents who used the darn books. I do not recall, nor do they, ever spending a meal with any tourist who laid that book on the dining room table.

I spent one dinner, unbeknownst to me beforehand, in a Rick Steves rec place in the 7th where all tables around us had the book either on the table top or on their laps. It was, I should say, a strange experience in a foreign land.

In the four, five, maybe six trips to Paris since, I have studiously avoided anything in the 7th. If I have walked Rue Cler, it has been entirely by accident.

I DO, as I have said before, find Rick Steves helpful. Rome totally overwhelmed me. I am the type of traveller who not only compiles three-ring binders of web material, I also dedicate an entire backpack (large) to ALL of my guidebooks, since I cannot decide among them as I would decide who would be my favorite child. Rick Steves' guide to the Sistine Chapel was darn close to the tour our very well paid personal guide gave.

That said, I do not want to spend my evenings in a restaurant with the book toten'Americans he breeds.

I, after all, keep my book(s) in my purse.

Sue_xx_yy

Perhaps I have misunderstood, Amelia, but is it that you hold that manners lie not in the behaviour of people, but in the titles of the guidebooks that they read? Would a Frenchman screaming into a cellphone at table in Paris be more acceptable to you than an American diner who is neither screaming nor on the phone, but is conversing with his or her companions in English? As for the books - suppose they were, indeed, stowed safely away instead of placed at the table, but the conversation of the people present is on the subject of the guidebook author. Would you still find this behaviour objectionable? As for the consultation of guidebooks, it appears some posters are offended even when this is done on the street - although if one is to observe the rule against no reading at the table, this does present the geographically challenged traveller with, well, a challenge. Where is one to consult said book? I suppose one could always open up a map in the toilet cubicle - assuming the darn cubicle is big enough - but then there is the matter of the poor wretch waiting in line to use it....

I await, my fork tines correctly pointed down, for your answer....(fear not, this knife can barely carve a potato....)

AnthonyGA

It has nothing whatsoever to do with manners, and everything to do with wanting to visit a foreign country and see <i>local people</i> from that country rather than one's neighbors from back home. There isn't much point in visiting Paris if the only people you see are other Americans.

As for seeing people reading rickstevian stuff in the street, I don't find it offensive at all, I just find it funny&mdash;and I tend to laugh at it, which seems to disconcert the clueless Americans who are doing it.

GregY2

In response to Schuler's question, I am Australian and I don't think that I would ever have heard of Rick Steve's if not for this forum. Our favourite restaurant in the 7th is le Maupertu, in Bvde de la Tour Maubourg. http://www.restaurant-maupertu-paris.com/

Scarlett

AnthonyG, does that mean when I come back to Paris, you will stay inside?
You are an American, yet you call other Americans clueless..because they are there? and not staying at home?
I find that more offensive than seeing any traveler checking their guidebook or a map or speaking to each other in their own language...

5alive

I will admit to having watched a few Rick Steves videos. In one of them he mentioned he had a certain apprehension/concern about restaurant recommendations, because it did take away some of their hidden-gem feel.

kleeblatt

Thanks GregY2. Nice to know that Rick's books haven't made it to Australia yet either.

AnthonyGA

I call Americans clueless when they are clueless. Whether or not that offends tourists is of no importance to me. Sometimes the truth hurts. Americans in the clueless category do a great deal of damage to the reputation of their country and countrymen when they are abroad; I have to spend a lot of time trying to repair the damage.

amelia

Le Maupertu is a new one for me, and it's good to know Le Petit Troquet remains &quot;safe&quot; even if it has been recommended! Thank you!

As to how crowds can impact an establishment, surely you've had the experience in your home towns when some reviewer highlights &quot;your&quot; favorite restaurant and therefore ruins it temporarily.

We eat at a local establishment once, twice, sometimes even three times a week. For the most part, the waiting time for a table is no more than 15-20 minutes,if that, time we spend standing near the bar chatting with the other regulars. Then the darn place will get reviewed and we have to wade through amateurs for a week or two.

A regular holding down a corner of the bar (a slim version of Norm)once chased a newspaper reviewer out the door, screaming, &quot;The last time you came here, I lost my stool for a week!&quot;

Gretchen

Florimond has not been overrun by tourists just because a couple of guys come in with a Steves book. It is still an excellent place to eat, with much local traffic. I don't know that we have ever seen other Americans there, particularly since it is a minute restaurant.

RufusTFirefly

RS is taking on mythical proportions. Either the &quot;Great God, Steve&quot; or the &quot;Evil Satan, Steve.&quot;

He must find it all quite amusing.

mamc

Our favorites in the 7th over the past 3 or 4 visits have been P'tit Troquet, L'Affriole, Clos des Gourmets and Fontaine de Mars. We don't use the RS Guides so don't know or care what he thinks about them. Don't confine yourself to the 7th, there are very nice restaurants nearby in the 6th. Try L'Epi Dupin, Bastide d'Odeon, Fish La Boissonerie, Ze Kitchen Gallerie and Bouquinistes.

CatFancier

RufusFirefly...Yeah, I'll bet Rick does find it all amusing, laughing all the way to the bank!

I've never used his recommendations for lodging or restaurants (not at all attracted to the Rue Cler area). However, I think his museum tours and walks are terrific. Also, he provides really helpful info for the first-timer. I tore all his walking/museum tours out of the guidebook and stapled each one separately. Took them with me to Paris and found them invaluable.

Snoopy

Hey RufusT . . . how's life?

I've never bought a RS book, but I've watched his videos, and I've heard him say what one of the earlier posters said about being reluctant to recommend a restaurant for fear of causing a riot . . . which was at the same time arrogant and thoughtful.

There sure are a lot of travel snobs on this post. &quot;Clueless&quot; for looking at a tourist book in public? Only to the extent perhaps that you are signalling every pickpocket in Paris that you are a tourist. And clearly life's hardly worth living if you have to eat in a French restaurant next to someone not French, and if they are looking at a guide book, you may as just kill yourself on the spot if that happens because obviously your entire trip has been ruined.

So, amelia, it seems ironic that you are asking people on an English speaking travel forum to suggest restaurants where you can eat in Paris (in the 7th) without . . . what . . . seeing other English speaking tourists? I apologise sincerely for this next remark, but doesn't that define travel snobbery? As in &quot;I'm a world traveller. Those other people are just tourists.&quot; I mean, AnthonyGA gives great advice (&quot;walk down any street . . . &quot then he lashes out at the &quot;hick&quot; tourist as if looking at an information guide or a map was tantamount to immitating Ma and Pa Kettle in Paris.

What exactly is it that you are looking for?

taylor_made

I have made use of the valuable advices on this board, and have contributed as well. I think some of us should not stand so high up on the pedestal. Because, somehow, in this world, everything is relative.

Hence, if I may post this question: Could there be, then, another group out there that's discussing how Fodors message board regulars are, gasp, ruining restaurants in the 7th?

Scarlett

Since France is the Top Tourist destination in the world, and Paris gets 2.5 milllion tourists a year, I think if one has a problem with seeing fellow Americans or even Germans or Brits, one might want to look elsewhere.

Sue_xx_yy

To go back to the idea of restaurants being ruined by popularity, I maintain that if a restaurant is ruined coincidentally with a favourable restaurant review, it is a sign that the place never merited a favourable review in the first place. Alain Ducasse and Paul Bocuse were not ruined by their success, they built their respective identities into brand names out of it, just as Rick Steves has done (albeit he caters to a different market niche).

Now then.

AnthonyGA

You might call it ‘having a clue’ and Amelia might call it ‘not being a restaurant amateur’ and still others might call it taste, but either way both of you have missed the mark.

An essential part of being sophisticated is to be charming as well as knowledgeable. It is neither charming nor sophisticated to brag about one’s being ‘clued-in’ i.e. about one’s sophistication, for in doing so one is <i> reaching </i> i.e. <i> trying </i> to be sophisticated, and to try is to ruin the entire effect, for one thereby becomes pretentious. Merely to claim (especially on an Internet messageboard) that one is charged with ‘repairing the damage’ or worse yet (as another poster I shall not name does on occasion) to maintain one is one of ‘the inner circle’ is to <i> broadcast to all and sundry that one wouldn’t know an inner circle if one was trapped on the inner ring of the Twiddlebrain-Crackforth roundabout at rush hour. </i>

Consider either Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis or Diana, Princess of Wales – either of whom probably ate more caviar than I have peanut butter in my lifetime – how often did they have to ridicule the ‘clueless’ in an effort to show how sophisticated they were? In point of fact, while both of them were clued-in members of an inner circle if there ever was one, each in her own way took elaborate care to show she had the ‘common touch’, thereby showing just how thoroughly uncommon she was.

All that had to be done here was to take a more subtle, and infinitely more diplomatic tack. Instead of asking “How does one find an establishment where one needn’t associate with Those People?” one had only to ask, “Where can I dine where the people are likely to be discussing Jean-Paul Sartre, than how to avoid a line-up at the Louvre?” Of course, this would require honest respondents to give away that they eavesdrop in restaurants, which would spoil the fun.

amelia

Folks--This just isn't that deep. Take a breather. I could care less if people have their guides on the table, let alone wear RS guides on their heads--that's THEIR problem, not mine. I made a joke when I said I kept mine in my purse. For goodness sakes, I've already said I lug a packback, indeed a heavy one, full of guidebooks. Do you think that I don't carry one, two, three, four plus two maps and look at them in the streets? In a cafe? And, contrary to all warnings, on the metro? Indeed, do you think for one second I'm reading them with a flashlight under my covers in the room?

I am more than willing have my picture taken with MY copy of RS on my head with anyone else who has a copy of it. In fact, when I return, I'll make sure one is posted.

But since I don't care to use his restaurant OR his hotel recommendations because a) those have been regarded by many ON THIS BOARD as unreliable and b) his publicity about any restaurant/hotel can (look at that word, &quot;can&quot change its very nature, I was just looking for plain, ol restaurant recommendations. And I was looking for those recommendations from people who may know! Some of the lovely posters here got the original intent in one. And they gave me the exact information that I needed.

As I said at the beginning, I once had a meal in the 7th before I ever bought my Rick Steves guide that although recommended by other people whom I trusted, was not up to snuff. When I saw all the Rick Steves guides on tabletops, I assumed there may have been some cause/effect, a theory that several posters have expounded upon on this board.

One more clarificaton: The &quot;amateur&quot; I was referring to--and for once, I ask that some of you actually look at remarks in their context--is in terms of people who are not a) the locals who frequent one specific American bar/cafe in MY town on a continual, supporting basis and b) the people who don't understand that Joe on the corner stool is to HAVE that stool as soon as he walks in. The &quot;amateurs&quot; are usually people with money to burn looking for the next &quot;new&quot; thing. As to using the term &quot;amateurs,&quot; if that is how Joe, Steve, and Lilly on the corner of the bar refer to them, that's why I used it. I will make sure to tell them some people are upset with them. I am sure they will lose sleep.

This is not a judgment on any tourist, any traveler, any Rick Steves fan, Rick Steves, the French, Americans, any socioeconomic group, as much as so many of you would like to be about something else.

AnthonyGA

Paris is indeed the world's top tourist destination, but the millions of tourists it receives are far from equally distributed throughout the city. They tend to congregate in a few tightly circumscribed areas, leaving much of the rest of the city to the locals. So, even though the city does receive a lot of tourists, it's possible to avoid them &hellip; although this inevitably means avoiding major tourist attractions (or, in some cases, visiting at very odd times&mdash;there are few people around Notre-Dame at 7 AM, but three hours later the entire area is crawling with tourists).

As for me, well, I'm not a tourist (in Paris), so there's no hypocrisy in what I say about tourists.

And when it comes to people like Jacqueline Kennedy or Princess Diana, they almost never got anywhere close to common people in the first place, and if they did, it was always brief and under tightly controlled conditions. It's easy to be gracious in such circumstances. You can always take a bubble bath back at the palace after that brief contact with the rabble.

schnauzer

Just who IS Rick Steves? Like the previous Aussie we just don't know of him, expect on this forum. Of course he is some sort of travel guru - one presumes but why is there so much talk about him. Je ne comprends pas.

I once had a Frommers (can I say that word on this forum?) guide book on the table at a restaurant in Italy and without a word a complementary bottle of wine appeared - I thought that alone was worth having the book in view!!