LoveItaly

LOL Neil, how dare you try to offer a sensible solution to the desk clerk with the nonworking computer as to whether the room had been cleaned or not!

My take on Italy is that I am unhappy to see more and more supermarkets as consequently a lot of small family owned businesses are closing down. There is nothing nicer than walking to the meat market, the bakery etc. During one visit my friend and I went to the supermarket on the outskirts of her small city in Veneto. I had jetlag. I was wondering around while she did some shopping. I suddenly "came to" and realized I was in Italy and not at my supermarket at home as basically there was no difference between the two. Very depressing.

And as far as flexible businesses here in CA, not that I have noticed. I tried to get a cup of coffee on the terrace at a restaurant I go to a lot one day last week. Oooops, it was 10:30am and they did not serve on the terrace until 11:00am..so no I couldn't get my coffee. I could have gone inside and had my coffee but not on the terrace. I had to drive across town to another place that I knew was serving on their patio. The difference is of course we tend to be able to get food somewhere all day long. But even in my city various restaurants have hours they serve and hours they don't. And when they don't the doors are locked.

It is good to find our about a country's customs before visiting the country. It avoids a lot of surprises and dissapointments.

Tiff

Reminds me of the saying, "Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on our part."


p.s. To Neil, what shoddy serve you surely received. It does appear sometimes that either the customer service is stellar or pitiful beyond words. I am sorry you received the latter in SFO. Luckily there is this little spot I know of where one can list establishment names along with their positive and negative experiences, hence no other may have to endure poor service again.

Here's to brighter moments for you down under and about, friend.

Neil_Oz

Tiff, don't worry about it. I've decided that it's better just to look on these things as part of the rich tapestry of life, if you can, even though they can drive your blood pressure up at the time. As they say, shit happens, and it happens everywhere. Rest assured it didn't put me off SF, in fact we'll be back this year.

For reasons of their own a lot of people who should never be let near the paying public end up in customer-facing jobs - or worse, and very often, own the business.

Sometimes it can be quite hilarious. It pays to watch "Fawlty Towers", surely the greatest TV comedy of all time, now and again. If you know the show, I'm sure I met Sybil Fawlty's American cousin running a Massachusetts motel. And bizarrely, I encountered Basil's cousin managing (sort of) a restaurant right here in Canberra - an ex-Floridean as it happens. That was a terrible night, but we've dined out on the story for years now. Particularly the time I broke my wine glass, at which the waitress broke down and went home and the chef came out of the kitchen to clean up the mess with the passing comment "Listen, mate, I couldn't give a shit - I'm out of this bloody madhouse tonight anyway". All the while our Basil clone, the nominal manager, ran in distracted circles with an ingratiating grin on his face, even bowing and rubbing his hands together Basil style. Weird!

You know what they say - you remember the service and atmosphere long after you've forgotten the food.

Carrybean

I'm always amused that when there's the slightest criticism of anything European the poster gets jumped on like crazy. (I'm not speaking specifically of this thread.)

But the USA bashing that goes on here is some of the rudest I've ever seen & many are quick to jump on the bandwagon.

I've had some of the worst service ever in hotels & restaurants in the UK where if the waiters were working for tips they WOULD starve to death Do I judge the whole country by it? No.

Europe has its ways & we have ours. But the opportunity to jump gleefully on the "horrid USA" bandwagon at every turn gets old & in this thread was much worse than the comparatively mild statements by the OP. And by the way, I don't agree with her either.

Sue_xx_yy

I think maybe there might be two separate issues here; one being the behaviour of a specific establishment, and the other being the behaviour of the business community as a whole.

A specific establishment hasn't much choice but to be 'rigid' if the sole cook has gone to lunch at 2 p.m. The community as a whole, on the other hand, might offer options as a way of serving the needs of the market. For example, in Spain, there are supposedly tapas bars that can supply a variety of small snacks meant to tide one over till the next meal.

I say 'supposedly' because in small places, the market for 'off-hour' snacks might not be big enough for at least something to be open at a given hour of the day. Cindi, you don't mention just where you were when you couldn't find a bar open.

I have to confess, we had a hard time fitting into the Spanish meal tradition. (Yes, our brains understood the concept - but our stomachs, especially jet-lagged as they were, didn't.) Also, we had the (for us) unusual experience of not being able to find places open just by following our noses. This, I suspect, was more a matter of chance, than anyone's rigidity.

I don't hold it against anyone to scrutinize a local community and wonder if there isn't a business opportunity going begging. On the other hand, it is wise to remember that as visitors, we generally get only a small sample of the communities we visit. Anecdotes are important pieces of evidence, but the evidence is unquestionably squewed.

Dukey

Planning ahead helps sometimes when you visit other places.

In this particular thread, "respecting tradition" is lauded to the heavens; BUT when that gets in the way of the OP's desires, that "respecting tradition" suddenly becomes "inflexibility." and "in the way of common sense."

Are Europeans 'inflexible'? I don;t know..why don't you ask Oprah Winfrey..I think she would have a ready answer given her recent (non)-shopping experience when stores were closed.

Sue_xx_yy

Neil

Having just reread your post, I am reminded that sometimes the evidence is squewed even prior to collection!

How I loved that show. I remember the time I found a 'Siberian hamster' in one of our hotel rooms....and instantly named it 'Basil'.

Geordie

Carrybean wrote <<But the USA bashing that goes on here is some of the rudest I've ever seen & many are quick to jump on the bandwagon.>>

I've been reading this thread and I don't see any rudeness and US bashing, what I've read is that people have encountered problems also in the US due to the inflexibility of staff, the same way as the OP mentioned they experienced in Spain.

If you would give the examples of the US being bashed, then it would be appreciated.

Geordie

elina

"So had to walk away from a perfectly fine $100 plate of spagetti, "

Must have been some spaghetti... Sauce was made of diamonds?

Northern Europe does not have siestas, but I understand their existence in southern Europe. I suppose they originate from times when certain hours of the day were too hot for manual labour. But I understand them also in modern times: People have to eat, and they have to have time to feed their kids. Plus everyone works better with proper rest periods.

And I don´t see the necessity of a store being open every day. Why would they have to? A food store near me stays nowadays open until 9 pm, and for the summer months also on Sundays. And I feel sorry for them. The shopkeeper is a man whose face and name are familiar, not a big company, and he must be very tired. And he must pay his employers 100% increased Sunday wages. I could very well do my shopping on Saturday mornings, and so could everybody else.

In todays western world hardly anybody is starving. To leave some meals uneaten would do a world of good to most of us.

kswl

Oh, janisj, another incidence of two people reading the very same thing and imterpreting it 180 degrees differently:

"Yes, I eventually 'got with the program' and learned to carry a candy bar to guard against an alarming drop in blood sugar. But I was only musing that being flexible and meeting a need when there is one can be very financially rewarding."

Cindiloowho, you might as well give up offering any opinions that could even possibly be construed as critical of Europe and Europeans.

You should have written, <i> &quot;While I thought at the time that the waiter and taverna were being overly rigid with their inflexible serving schedules, I finally realized that these people have a way of life that is far superior to ours. Their seeming disdain for &quot;dollar chasing&quot; is actually a commitment to quality of life, and we later went back to that same establishment to apologize to the waiter for interrupting his siesta. It was a lesson learned for us type A Americans. Sigh.&quot;</i>

tcreath

I find the comments from the OP to be rather amusing. I travel to experience the differences. If I wanted to go to a place where I can get a cup of coffee in the lobby, and a doggie bag after my meal I would just assume stay in the US. And most of the information regarding things like siestas can probably be found in any decent guidebook. Some advance reading should have had you prepared for such things. We travel to experience something new. If you can't handle the differences, you should probably just stay home.

Tracy

suze

The thing that strikes me as the most unreasonable in the OP is Cindi's not understanding that if a restaurant is NOT open at the time... why they can't just &quot;make us a sandwich&quot;.

This person clearly has never worked in a restaurant! It's the middle of the afternoon. The dinner shift waiters are not in yet. Lunch crew is finishing up, cleaning likely setting up for dinner. The chef/cooks are busy preping for the evening meal.

I can't think of any restaurant in the U.S. I know that would make food during hours that they were not serving, just because someone came in hungry!

;-)

mariacallas

I've found some of the most inflexible people on earth to be Americans.

murphy89

lol Dukey! This post reminded me of that very same Oprah incident 8-)

cindiloowho - these kind of comments (and associated behaviors) are exactly what many Europeans find irritating about North Americans. The &quot;we are better and smarter&quot; and &quot;our ways are best&quot; mentality. Its nice when we don't perpetuate that impression.

I think super stores are very representative of where North American culture is going - everything big, flashy, immediate, convenient and easy. I have to agree with RoadCrazy - I love the seperate shops for veggies, fruit, bread etc. Each shop is a specialty, so you are bound to get better qualitiy and it make shopping more <font color="blue">conscious</font> then just schluping around with a cart, mindlessly throwing in ding dongs and pre-washed celery sticks. Thank goodness for the remaining cultural differences. Eventually we wont need to travel - everyone will be the same. What a shame.

Murphy

Sue_xx_yy

I rather suspect the average European business doesn't give a ding-dong about how sensitive we are to their 'culture'. Rather, like businesses everywhere, they would like, ideally, to keep costs down whilst availing themselves of such business there is. Who can blame them? That's the point of business - to make a profit, not bear the burden of safeguarding community traditions as anyone else might perceive them.

That said, it is also a reality of business that to keep labour costs down, which translates into minimizing the number of open (or fully open) hours, also runs the risk of excluding a certain segment of the market.

This is because the customer's desire for convenience is not specific to North Americans. I rather suspect there are Spanish customers who rattle the door handle of shops at closing time, no less than outsiders like cindiloo. The rising popularity of the much-disdained fast-food restaurants in Europe bears testament to this. Twould be a pity if other businesses, serving more traditional food, couldn't somehow pool their resources to compete with this phenomenon.

So, while it's fun to try one's hand at anthropology, ultimately it's up to the individual business, and not some cultural bible that is largely imaginary, as to whether the number of customers wanting expanded opening hours justifies a change in operation.

pavfec

The OP seems to lack resourcefulness. Instead of focusing on that restaurant, couldn't she find a bar that served tapas or boccadillos? I remember buying those sandwiches at odd hours in Spain and never having a problem. In fact, in the 3 weeks we spent in Spain and Portugal, we never had a problem getting something to eat. And I completely agree with the poster who said that Spain's meal times seem to cater to tourists.

Like I already said, cindiloowho, get a good guide book, do your research and &quot;do as the Romans do&quot; (so to speak) or just don't travel and stay at home where you can get your doggie bag.

kswl

Gee, I've never mindlessly thrown Ding Dongs or pre-washed celery sticks in my shopping cart. I don't think we can blame grocery superstores for that. But of course if you can't trust yourself not to do that, then restricting your choices is wise.

Seamus

Guess what - the trend to those superstores is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. As technology (of all sorts, but primarily digital and electronic) propels the broadest changes in commerce since Marco Polo and the Silk road, the way people live their daily lives is changing. And that include travel - because of e-tickets and online or kiosk check in airlines reduce staff costs, allowing them to sell at fares that are actually lower (in adjusted funds) than a generation ago. The best ones understand that the technology needs to &quot;feel&quot; good in the way greeting your local merchant used to and design their processes accordingly. So now we have more people able to travel further distances - and more crowded airplanes. It’s a trade off, not unlike the less than stellar quality of shrink wrapped baked goods. They aren't exactly awful, but though certainly not up to the standards of gourmet they are readily available. If you really want a first rate croissant you will find a bakery that makes them and do what it takes to get them each morning. If convenience is more important to you, it's the Costco version in the toaster oven.

murphy89

Fair enough kswl - I guess I alway felt my shopping in Europe was more purposeful. I had to go to such and such a shop for a specific item so I gave more consideration to what I bought and what I was going to make. Good for the waistline - well, mine anyway ;-)

kswl

I have to agree to that, Murphy. Shopping in smaller stores does make each visit more purposeful. I have personally been trying to buy only for three days in advance, even though that has increased my &quot;attendance&quot; at our local shopping center. I didn't mean any disrespect, by the way, just having a bit of fun. (sometimes playing the devil's advocate on this board is just like swatting a hornet's nest with a stick . . . you always know which wasps will come out ready to sting &gt: