nytraveler - I was actually thinking the same thing. You signed a contract, you feel strange about it and now would like to cancel.

Nothing was done that was fraud to date.

If it was me, I would go armed with additional options - everything might be fine - the week might be great - and all is good.

No, I now got an email stating now that the apt is not on the ground floor as specified/questioned in 4 emails. My email states to proceed to the apt on the 2nd floor. There is also no apt manager as specified initially. I don't see any reason why Amex will not dispute this on my behalf.

I do blame myself for not trusting my instinct. I also think the owner is flighty/flaky and that is the problem, not that she is trying to rip me off.

I will see what I can get within the week as far as other accomodations.

I have lived in Berlin for 10 years, and these kind of residential buildings *usually* don't have a manager on-site (like the old concierge in Paris), but some facility management company being in charge for repairs and maintenance.
The *usual* procedure would be to call them if anything major goes wrong (water, electricity, and so on). What you cannot expect will be a full-service maintenance, e.g. when one light bulb will go dark or when the TV breaks down. Maybe the owner has a local person you can get in touch with also for those minor things, but it's *usually* not the facility management's business.

Since you pay extra for final cleaning, and no regular maid service is advertised, I would assume that you will indeed have to do your own laundry and dishes, but you won't have to clean the apartment yourself upon departure.

While I find the way the owner handles your questions a bit odd and on the low end of "customer service", I would not necessarily assume that it's a scam.

Cowboy that is my feeling - it is low end of customer service - I would not recommend nor use again but do not feel it is a scam.

It's hard for me to guage just what's going on here, but I too think it sounds more like a flaky person than a scam at all.

And honestly, I don't think I've ever rented an apartment for the first time without having a number of 'qualms', mostly all of which resolved themselves. I really don't expect an on-site manager generally and there are certain issues that you just may have to deal with IF they happen -- like lost keys (I'm paranoid about that one) or blown fuses. That's just part of renting an independent apartment to me. And not being on-site doesn't mean the same thing to me as having NO manager.

But frankly I'd lay the cards on the table. Call or send one more email saying you are really dissatisfied and uncomfortable and unless you can get some immediate specific answers you are afraid you must cancel and report your dissatisfaction with VRBO.

No on-site manager would not bother me at all. But thinking the flat is on the ground floor then finding out it is on the 2nd (3rd floor American) - that seems more than just flakey.

Cherry, remember you are renting an apt not an apt hotel. Most do not have local managers and many do not have a local contact..you do fend for yourself with most rentals the exception being some high end operations with high end price tags in which all apts pretty well are full time rentals- Paris Perfect is an example. That being said, I think the last posters advice re expressing your displeasure and laying your cards on the table is good advice. However, as others have said, I dont think this represents fraud and an AMEX refund woulc (and should IMO) be unlikely. A direct approach to the owner, however, is mandatory to solve the problem.

Well, a refund MIGHT be in order if you have in writing that she said it was ground floor and now you find it's two flights up. That's major.

If you have previous correspondence confirming that the apartment is on the ground floor and now learn that it is not, this could be the basis for canceling and requesting a refund (as long as there is no elevator). Everything else sounds pretty standard when renting form a private owner.

Well, I'm 100% with cherrybomb on this one. I'm very surprised it's considered normal for apartment owners to be so unreliable.

She booked and paid for the apartment after being told it was on the ground floor, and after being told there was a contact/manager in Berlin (that's how I interpret "on site manager"- a contact in Berlin, not a literal manager in the building itself)

Now that she has paid, she's being told it's on the second floor, and that there's no contact person in Berlin after all. The owner won't bother answering her questions, just directs her to the webpage. And that only after frequent badgering.

The owner has already proven to be unreliable by email. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, when there is no one you can reliably contact during your stay in case something happens.

Granted I don't have much experience renting vacation apartments but I just rented from owners in Paris and have booked an apartment in London from the owner on vrbo. Maybe I've just been extraordinarily lucky so far, but I would be unhappy if I were in cherrybomb's shoes.

Thank you Apres--you were able to fully restate my issues.

I of course do not expect a concierge, I'm not that high maintenance. There is no cleaning fee nor contact in Berlin--who cleans the place? Other than my own dishes and such, which I expect to do--I am wondering who is doing laundry/cleaning prior to arrival. I asked multiple times about any steps and the floor it was on--told 3 steps, ground floor, now it is the 2nd (or 1st euro floor). I was told that there was a contact in Berlin, now there is not..all of this is weird. though, again, I do NOT think it is a scam, just really poor management/lack of interest in communicating. The reason I email is so that it is all in writing, phone call answers would not do me any good in this case.

In either case this may be a moot point as the apt may be fine, though it is starting to look like I may have to scrap the vacation anyways due my knee injury now to the point of so much pain when I walk that I am unsure how I will be able to manage walking around all day and while I am content to sit alone in cafes all day, I'm not so sure that it is the best use of my ff miles.

The husband is calling her either way to deal with the situation tonight and find out hat the deal is.

I kind of doubt if you would get a refund from Amex, but you never know. I just don't think they want to be lawyers, exactly, and this would be a comlicated case if you would expect a refund because of something that really wasn't in the contract you signed (ie, emails), and while the difference in floors would be substantial for a knee problem, I just don't know if Amex would consider that a reason to dispute the charges.

You could always ask them though.

The reason I suggested calling wasn't to prove anything, but because the main issue seemed to be some questions you wanted answered.

I'll admit I have never asked who was cleaning an apt. I rented nor did I care. I think that's kind of unusual to demand details like that. I wouldn't rent from a private owner, myself, though, I have only rented from agencies and I do that for a reason. I want professionals with an address and business, etc., and I use agencies that actually have offices in the cities where I rent (well, only Paris). Lots of folks love VRBO but you take that risk when you rent from some total stranger over the internet, who isn't a real business.

I think it would be normal to want to know what to do if something really drastic happened -- like the plumbing broke and the apt flooded or something. I have always had those contacts with phone numbers etc before I signed a contract, it was in the paperwork.

NO harm is trying to back out and seeing what happens, I agree. But legally not sure you can expect anything. Having bad vibes isn't a reason to get a refund on Amex, unfortunately. I also wouldn't have done this without buying travel insurance.

Regarding cleaning, I've noted on more than one VRBO website there has a been a mention of "we keep our costs low by expecting each renter to thoroughly clean the premises before they leave to reduce having cleaning fees". While at first glance that may sound good, what I take it is -- you'd better hope the previous tenants didn't have an early morning flight or train to catch or the place will be a mess. How many people are really going to scrub the bathroom and shower, and mop the floors the way a professional cleaner would? No thanks. I avoid those places and don't mind a separate required cleaning fee. Don't think of it as a fee for cleaning up AFTER you, but rather as one for getting it really clean BEFORE you.

I agree, Patrick. I would never rent with that stipulation either. I certainly don't want to have to clean an apartment before departure even though I am always careful to clean up after myself.

Oh goodness, just the thought of that grosses me out. I would not rent that way either!

I have used with great sucess VRBO - but other then a local rental we use for a beach house - each has been handled by an agency.

The VRBO website you gave us clearly states a €50 cleaning fee.

You can expect a CLEAN apt upon arrival, with everything ready and clean to use, from dishes, pots, and pans to toilets or bath tubs.

Most apt will have usual cleaning utensils and a vacuum cleaner, though, which you can use if you feel like it, or if you spilled something.

Since you will pay the € 50 cleaning fee, you can leave the apt "dirty" upon departure.

hi again,

on the question of cleaning, as both a renter and a rentee i find it extraordinary that there are places where you have to pay extra for this. who wants to rely on the previous customers' standards of cleanliness? if you're leaving a place, you're not going to be that meticulous, especially if you've got kids/spouse/pets wanting to get on the road.

the industry standard in the UK is that cleaning is included, and quite right too. i have to confess that when we left the apartment we rented in Venice recently, we did not clean or even tidy up particularly, as we had paid an extra 65E for someone to do it.

cherry - what have you decided to do?

regards, ann

ps i hope this doesn't spoil your trip. Berlin is a great place!

"on the question of cleaning, as both a renter and a rentee i find it extraordinary that there are places where you have to pay extra for this"

annhig, I think we're talking a matter of semantics here.
If a place charges 450 pounds a week including cleaning or 425 pounds a week plus 25 pound cleaning fee, it's all the same to me. Don't think for a minute that if a place hires professional cleaning that you're getting that for free just because it isn't spelled out-- it's simply already been added into the price. I was simply saying that many places add for cleaning but generally make it required. And that I'd avoid a place that gives people the option of NOT paying for cleaning but doing it themselves. I think you clearly agree that's not a good idea.

I always clean up the apt but also wouldn't take a place that I was expected to clean myself--I assume the cleaning is included, though as it was pointed out there is a cleaning fee I did not see.

I am going to my ortho today to see what he says about even traveling.

I have a backup apt I found with an elevator though it is in a different area--on the mitte/p-berg border. The husband will be calling the original owner to get hard answers tonight. I am inclined to take the other apt with an elevator. I have travel insurance through my card plan. It is a crapshoot--it will be fine if we don't take it and a nightmare if we do--the law of nature.

I do disagree that this is all an issue of my "gut" feeling though--there was mis-information given throughout the exchange regarding the apartment.

oh--and I also take some responsibility for only asking about the floor and whether there was a contact in the city. Then again--those were the only concerns I had when renting. Though it was slow--I received answers, though those answers have now changed since paying.