Apologies -- potentially offensive question -- Scotland
Aug 10th, 2006, 09:47 AM
#1
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Apologies -- potentially offensive question -- Scotland
I am almost embarrassed to ask this question. But, here goes --
I've been reading that the government of Scotland started a compaign last year to end racism. Apparently there were issues in the police force and amongst football players - is that correct?
How concerned should I be as a "person of color" travelling to small B&B's on the west coast and to Skye.
I had some bad experiences in England. But, that was over a decade ago.
Thanks
I've been reading that the government of Scotland started a compaign last year to end racism. Apparently there were issues in the police force and amongst football players - is that correct?
How concerned should I be as a "person of color" travelling to small B&B's on the west coast and to Skye.
I had some bad experiences in England. But, that was over a decade ago.
Thanks
Aug 10th, 2006, 10:26 AM
#4
I had a lovely stay in the Basque country in Ainhoa at the Hotel Ithurria.
Did you name yourself after that beautiful village?
Misha, you'll find insecure people all over the world who will act rudely but most people are very nice.
Sheila lives in Scotland, perhaps we will read her imput.
Did you name yourself after that beautiful village?
Misha, you'll find insecure people all over the world who will act rudely but most people are very nice.
Sheila lives in Scotland, perhaps we will read her imput.
Aug 10th, 2006, 10:48 AM
#6
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Whatever your colour I am sure you will be treated like any other tourist.
There have been a lot of attitude changes in the last 20 years towards different races.
Hope you enjoy your holiday and return home with good memories of Scotland.
There have been a lot of attitude changes in the last 20 years towards different races.
Hope you enjoy your holiday and return home with good memories of Scotland.
Aug 10th, 2006, 11:00 AM
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Oh, dear. What a difficult question to answer.
Scotland has kidded itself on for years and years that (unlike the English) we have no racism. And, in reality, it's hugely less common here than in England. Per head of poulation there are hugely fewer black and Asian people living here, too, which is, to some extent the reason.
As you may know, we have had a huge issue with refugess in Britain over the last many years, and one answer of government has been only to provide housing support in specific places, one of which is Glasgow. So many more visible people of colour there.
The minority ethnic population of Scotland is officially 2%. but that's based on the 2001 census and the figure has grown a lot since then.
This is one of the reason for the SE Campaign, which I think is a positive thing. You'll find details here.
http://www.onescotland.com/onescotla...ntentID=3&
There's a section in there on attitudes today.
Now, having said all that, and from the comfort of my white middle class home, I would be gobsmacked if you encountered racism of any sort anywhere other than outside a pub in a city centre at closing time.
And I would be very pleased if you would be good enough to tell us after you get back, how you got on.
Scotland has kidded itself on for years and years that (unlike the English) we have no racism. And, in reality, it's hugely less common here than in England. Per head of poulation there are hugely fewer black and Asian people living here, too, which is, to some extent the reason.
As you may know, we have had a huge issue with refugess in Britain over the last many years, and one answer of government has been only to provide housing support in specific places, one of which is Glasgow. So many more visible people of colour there.
The minority ethnic population of Scotland is officially 2%. but that's based on the 2001 census and the figure has grown a lot since then.
This is one of the reason for the SE Campaign, which I think is a positive thing. You'll find details here.
http://www.onescotland.com/onescotla...ntentID=3&
There's a section in there on attitudes today.
Now, having said all that, and from the comfort of my white middle class home, I would be gobsmacked if you encountered racism of any sort anywhere other than outside a pub in a city centre at closing time.
And I would be very pleased if you would be good enough to tell us after you get back, how you got on.
Aug 10th, 2006, 11:48 AM
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Wow, ok this brings up SO many issues about the country today...
Scotland is a multicultural place - less so than England but with large South Asian and muslim communities, alongside smaller Black and increasingly East Asian ones too. The universities are all very multicultural with many non European overseas students.
However you'll get many inquisitive looks if the countryside locals are unused to a 'person of colour' as you put it.
Whatever you do don't mistake this for hostility, in many cases people are quietly trying to stem the urge to make contact with you but are flummoxed as what to blurt out or afraid to be rude - without realising their staring is totally giving them away. Ive had the same experience being literally followed about in village Cornwall, and once in conversation asked in a very sideways way about my East Asian culture and roots.
Anyways, the places youve put up aren't an issue at all, the remote West coast is not as remote as you think, with the little village bases being flooded by tourists from all over the world come summer - English, Americans, Arabs, continental Europeans, Chinese, Indians, Japanese etc.
The places in Scotland, and the country as a whole, with the rare problems of racism aren't the remote or rural places but the multicultural inner city projects.
'Institutionalised racism' is increasingly coming to the fore among the police and army where the ethnic contingent of the forces (aswell as female) have long being passed over for promotion, and decades old issues such as the tedious stop and search policies suffered by the Black community and the stereotyping of the south Asian communities involving arranged marriages, conservativism and religion that often mislead any relevant investigations. Then theres the 'IRA fallout' suspicion of the Irish community and much publicised deaths in police custody in the 80s and 90s. These are issues tourists will be highly unlikely to come across and are pretty much heavy internal issues. (These institutions have now been forced to implement positive discrimination and much psychometric testing to well, strain out the traditional right wingers that are recruited).
On football players, throughout the 80s football grounds were breeding grounds for recruiting members for racist groups but thats been heavily stamped out in the 90s through much publicity at home and abroad of the football riots that that entailed. Despite many Brit fans, players and icons being ethnic there's still a right wing element to the game especially up North, and what youve picked up on on Scotland.
The biggest issue is recently, especially following the World Cup, is the perceived racism toward the English that came to fore.
You've got to remember despite these issues Britain is said to have the best race relations in the West, and much better than the US with its residential, political and class segregation of races (segregation in the cities for example, acc. to the 2000 census is back to the level of the 60s - and getting worse.) In contrast British intermarriage in every ethnic minority is now higher than inmarriage - they say youll see more mixed couples in a day in London than a year in NYC - you'll definitely see a difference in how easily everyone mixes and in every level of society (not just race but class too), and how relaxed and easily each minority is represented in the populist media from Royalty to advertising.
Don't get me wrong, UK isnt a racial nirvana and definitely has a history of political bigotry that US social policies put to shame (the treatment of new immigrants for one), but its population and society is today, even despite the endless media terrorist scaremongering, pretty much a laid back and readily mixing place, and much like no other.
As an result of attempts at segregation in the 50s and 60s the generations of immigrants have been fully integrated in a multicultural society (no need for a 'melting pot' policy). The govt used to house the new immigrants in seperate communities in a hope theyd develop seperately with freedom of religion, language and dress, usually in the heart of traditional working class neighbourhoods. No one needed to swear to a flag or know the national anthem or even speak English, they could dress, worship and eat as they would in their homeland as by all accounts they were seperate from the English in the eyes of the govt.
the result a generation later was outperformance of the local population in education and business, much intermarriage and the fact despite their multiculturalism that 90 percent of these community members 'felt British'. Its ironic how this all came about through formerly racist policies that picked some of the worse elements of both the segregational and melting pot ideologies. I think its the people in both communites - the working class natives and the immigrants - that need to be commended.
Anyway, you'll find wherever you go people will have very little to 'tolerate' about your skin color or perceived foreigness if you know what I mean.
Scotland is a multicultural place - less so than England but with large South Asian and muslim communities, alongside smaller Black and increasingly East Asian ones too. The universities are all very multicultural with many non European overseas students.
However you'll get many inquisitive looks if the countryside locals are unused to a 'person of colour' as you put it.
Whatever you do don't mistake this for hostility, in many cases people are quietly trying to stem the urge to make contact with you but are flummoxed as what to blurt out or afraid to be rude - without realising their staring is totally giving them away. Ive had the same experience being literally followed about in village Cornwall, and once in conversation asked in a very sideways way about my East Asian culture and roots.
Anyways, the places youve put up aren't an issue at all, the remote West coast is not as remote as you think, with the little village bases being flooded by tourists from all over the world come summer - English, Americans, Arabs, continental Europeans, Chinese, Indians, Japanese etc.
The places in Scotland, and the country as a whole, with the rare problems of racism aren't the remote or rural places but the multicultural inner city projects.
'Institutionalised racism' is increasingly coming to the fore among the police and army where the ethnic contingent of the forces (aswell as female) have long being passed over for promotion, and decades old issues such as the tedious stop and search policies suffered by the Black community and the stereotyping of the south Asian communities involving arranged marriages, conservativism and religion that often mislead any relevant investigations. Then theres the 'IRA fallout' suspicion of the Irish community and much publicised deaths in police custody in the 80s and 90s. These are issues tourists will be highly unlikely to come across and are pretty much heavy internal issues. (These institutions have now been forced to implement positive discrimination and much psychometric testing to well, strain out the traditional right wingers that are recruited).
On football players, throughout the 80s football grounds were breeding grounds for recruiting members for racist groups but thats been heavily stamped out in the 90s through much publicity at home and abroad of the football riots that that entailed. Despite many Brit fans, players and icons being ethnic there's still a right wing element to the game especially up North, and what youve picked up on on Scotland.
The biggest issue is recently, especially following the World Cup, is the perceived racism toward the English that came to fore.
You've got to remember despite these issues Britain is said to have the best race relations in the West, and much better than the US with its residential, political and class segregation of races (segregation in the cities for example, acc. to the 2000 census is back to the level of the 60s - and getting worse.) In contrast British intermarriage in every ethnic minority is now higher than inmarriage - they say youll see more mixed couples in a day in London than a year in NYC - you'll definitely see a difference in how easily everyone mixes and in every level of society (not just race but class too), and how relaxed and easily each minority is represented in the populist media from Royalty to advertising.
Don't get me wrong, UK isnt a racial nirvana and definitely has a history of political bigotry that US social policies put to shame (the treatment of new immigrants for one), but its population and society is today, even despite the endless media terrorist scaremongering, pretty much a laid back and readily mixing place, and much like no other.
As an result of attempts at segregation in the 50s and 60s the generations of immigrants have been fully integrated in a multicultural society (no need for a 'melting pot' policy). The govt used to house the new immigrants in seperate communities in a hope theyd develop seperately with freedom of religion, language and dress, usually in the heart of traditional working class neighbourhoods. No one needed to swear to a flag or know the national anthem or even speak English, they could dress, worship and eat as they would in their homeland as by all accounts they were seperate from the English in the eyes of the govt.
the result a generation later was outperformance of the local population in education and business, much intermarriage and the fact despite their multiculturalism that 90 percent of these community members 'felt British'. Its ironic how this all came about through formerly racist policies that picked some of the worse elements of both the segregational and melting pot ideologies. I think its the people in both communites - the working class natives and the immigrants - that need to be commended.
Anyway, you'll find wherever you go people will have very little to 'tolerate' about your skin color or perceived foreigness if you know what I mean.
Aug 10th, 2006, 11:55 AM
#10
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When our daughter was working in Glasgow, we visited at the Scottish equivalent of high school prom time (I don't know what they would call it there). A young man had proudly brought his date to our hotel for a grand dinner. She had on a sort of typical prom dress, and he was dressed in full Scottish dress -- kilt, sporran, jacket, lace shirt, etc. And he was very dark African Scottish or West Indian Scottish. No one turned a head except to smile at the young couple. Stay away from low-life pubs, and I think you will find the Scots among the warmest people in the world.
Aug 10th, 2006, 11:55 AM
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what few people realise is Europe tends to have better 'race relations' in society than in US, though politically its a whole different story.
In short what I meant to say through that spiel is this: treat yourself as if youre in Canada.
In short what I meant to say through that spiel is this: treat yourself as if youre in Canada.
Aug 10th, 2006, 03:20 PM
#12
Original Poster
Thanks for all your insights. I feel more confident. It's probably better than touring the deep south in the US.
Zupermaus-- love the description of the "flummoxed" locals. I'll keep Canada in mind.
Sheila - thanks, I was really surprised at that 2% number. Thanks for explaining.
Cigalechanta -- Misha is actually my adored dogs name. But, if I ever have another child...
Thanks you all for telling of your experiences/ideas.
Zupermaus-- love the description of the "flummoxed" locals. I'll keep Canada in mind.
Sheila - thanks, I was really surprised at that 2% number. Thanks for explaining.
Cigalechanta -- Misha is actually my adored dogs name. But, if I ever have another child...
Thanks you all for telling of your experiences/ideas.
Aug 11th, 2006, 01:34 AM
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Without seeing the research that says that Scotland has a bad racism problems, the mere mention of the word "football" makes me think twice.
I'm in no position to comment n Scotland's racism or otherwise being a white man. However there is a certain amount of anti-English feeling (which I have experienced), and this comes to the fore when there are football contests on. I'm not sure that this counts as racism as, as far as I am concerned, "English" isn't a race it's a nationality.
However there is a serious problem of religious bigotry, which I suspect maybe at the root of the campaign ,and this is displayed at it's most overt at football matches. There are teams that have almost exclusively catholic or protestant supporters and the singing of violently sectarian songs is common, as is the barracking of individual players for their perceived religious allegiance. I imagine that this maybe what the campaign is about.
I'm in no position to comment n Scotland's racism or otherwise being a white man. However there is a certain amount of anti-English feeling (which I have experienced), and this comes to the fore when there are football contests on. I'm not sure that this counts as racism as, as far as I am concerned, "English" isn't a race it's a nationality.
However there is a serious problem of religious bigotry, which I suspect maybe at the root of the campaign ,and this is displayed at it's most overt at football matches. There are teams that have almost exclusively catholic or protestant supporters and the singing of violently sectarian songs is common, as is the barracking of individual players for their perceived religious allegiance. I imagine that this maybe what the campaign is about.
Aug 11th, 2006, 08:36 AM
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Cigale, Ainhoa is a very common name in the Basque Country (specially in the spanish side). It comes from the name of the virgin in Ainhoa, France, where you stayed.
And if you want to know about another Ainhoa, the great sopran Ainhoa Arteta is a good example.
Misha, sorry to have hijacked your thread,
kind regards, Cova
And if you want to know about another Ainhoa, the great sopran Ainhoa Arteta is a good example.
Misha, sorry to have hijacked your thread,
kind regards, Cova
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