janisj, asking Fodor's to get involved in these petty spats is the height of childishness. And actually, they seem to have deleted one post, and not the one being called a "personal attack".

pariswat, surely you are aware that bluntness and sarcasm are considered rude by many people. My point, however, is be blunt! Be sarcastic! Why not write what you want to write on an anonymous public forum? I enjoy your posts because you have your own voice; whether I agree with or like your opinions is a separate issue, but not one that I need to ask the moderators for help with.

Those who find a post rude are free to ignore it, after all.

What I object to is the exaggerated outrage and calls for deletions--again, so childish! Sticks and stones...

Have you tried onefinestay apt rentals? I have no clue where they stand in relation to the discussion above - I think they are homes that are rented when the owner is not there. But I know they are vetted apartments with 24/7 support and you get a local iphone. Can be a bit pricier but you might give them a try. They have a US office and also local ones...good luck and have fun!

Imappreciate the helpful suggestions.

>>anisj, asking Fodor's to get involved in these petty spats is the height of childishness. And actually, they seem to have deleted one post, and not the one being called a "personal attack". <<

1) I didn't ask anyone to do anything. Someone else must be your childish 'culprit'. And 2) No, they didn't delete just one, they deleted <u>three</u> posts from this thread - all by the same person.

That would be moi. And guess what? It doesn't matter one bit. The important bits are out there. The hypocrites are outed. Let them keep pontificating here...gasbags that they are, they need to. Fast typist my foot.

Somebody above mentioned onefinestay.com as a possible legal rental, but it could be pricier. In my 2 minutes of googling I found out that 50% of the rental fee goes to the agency and 50% to the agency. Sorry that is way too high a premium to pay.

With Onefinestay you only deal with the agency, never with the owner. You pay by cc directly to Onefinestay. The % they pay the owner depends on the situation, time of year etc. As a guest you don't have anything to do with that, you just deal with Onefinestay. You pay more because there's more service than with an Airbnb, and they vet all the properties, taking on only the best.
If there's a problem with the apartment, Onefinestay will make sure you get another one. They are on 24h call, in case of problems.

We use them in London. It's worth the % for us. Our flat in London is nearly always let and they take care of everything.

Wether their Paris properties are legal is another matter.

Sorry everyone! Thought it was a fun travel forum. Not a political arena to place views of personal political views. I withdraw my previous post. So sad as you are obviously super nice people sans arguing on this post.

We are planning a week on Paris next October and were hoping to rent the same apartment we had this year from Paris Autrement. How do I find out if this is legal or not? I don't want to arrive and find I can't get into my accommodation.

Helsi, IMO, don't worry about it. Lastest newsletter is very interesting again imo.
Bonjour French Property Insider Subscriber,



There are many people in the media discussing the subject from all angles. Few actually have any real knowledge or insight, but they do have a voice in the media, whether it be in blogs, forums or articles. And all that misinformation distorts the true picture. It is this on which I caution you. If you're going to believe what someone tells you, at least ensure that it's a reputable and trustworthy source who has a real foundation of knowledge on the subject.

This editorial message is a result of reading just such comments and becoming aware of how opinions are formed without much basis in fact. It was also obvious from the many comments we receive that the average individual doesn't understand the basics of short-term rentals in today's world, whether in Paris or just about anywhere in the world.

abnb logoLet's start with Airbnb.com and the phenomena it has caused. In today's world, the average renter no longer 'rents an apartment,' but rents an 'Airbnb' -- much like "Kleenex" became the generic term for "tissues." Airbnb is simply a platform that connects a consumer to a consumer or a landlord with a renter. It is not a rental agency and does not represent or manage those properties advertised on their Web site. The brilliant concept made it absolutely free of charge for anyone to promote the rental of his room or property...until a rental took place and then a commission is paid. It has no responsibility for the property itself and therefore has no responsibility to uphold any rental laws that are applied to the property.

This is also true for VRBO.com (Vacation Rental By Owner), which is exactly the same, except that the landlords pay a set fee to advertise on VRBO, so that there is a financial commitment from the owner of the property which eliminates less serious landlords and properties. Still, VRBO connects consumer with consumer and has no responsibility for the property itself.

There are other sites which advertise rental properties and take a commission when the property is rented, but do not actually represent or manage the property, and therefore the renter is doing business directly with the landlord. Agencies that represent large numbers of properties, say more than 100, are likely to fall into this category, as the management of a property is a very personal and labor-intensive service. Management may include the "meet and greet" of the renter, the housekeeping and the maintenance. It is also a very un-profitable aspect of the business, particularly in France where employment costs run very high.

Parler Paris Apartments
Parler Paris Apartments - La Belle Notre Dame
Lastly there are the "boutique" agencies, such as ours, ParlerParisApartments.com and our partner's Paris-Sharing.com, that hand-pick the properties, take all the bookings and fully manage the properties. The owners are almost always absentee who need the service and the agencies are run to provide a professional service to both the owner and the renter.

When you rent directly from an owner, you take a certain level of risk. Firstly, it does not mean the cost of the rental will be less -- most properties are priced based on what the market can bear, not on the costs of operation! In fact, you could be paying a very high price without much in return if you are not careful.

Paris Sharing paris-sharing.com
Paris Sharing - Le Nodier, View of Sacré Coeur
In addition, (we have a 'saying' in the industry) 'a property is only as good as its owner.' There are good landlords and bad landlords. There are well appointed properties and badly appointed properties. You take your chances and you could win or lose.

With a professionally managed property, you have a much higher chance of getting the quality and service deserving of the rental and should you have any issues, there is someone there to manage the problem (like getting locked out!...a common occurrence).

Some properties advertised on Airbnb, VRBO and the other agencies are, in fact, professionally managed. In the need to compete with Airbnb and the others, the agencies are advertising their properties, not only on their own Web sites, but on the C to C platforms as well. If you prefer to ensure you're 'getting what you pay for' then it would be wise to rent either directly from the professional agencies or to ensure that the property promoted on Airbnb or VRBO is one, too.

To be perfectly clear in regard to the rental laws in Paris: NONE of the agencies have any responsibility to uphold these rental laws -- only the owners of these properties do. It is for this reason the business not only continues, but prospers.

The fact of the matter is that people need accommodations and landlords need revenue to maintain their properties. These two facts will not change, regardless of how the city housing department wants to punish those who attempt it. And fortunately, as per the news we recently had, there "Is Light at the End of the Short-Term Rental Tunnel."

A bientôt,

And none of that special pleading says anything about legality, nor does it mention the agency Helsie is using. In other words, irrelevant.

The only thing that post says (apart from advertising their own services) is that no agency will take responsibility; you're on your own.

You can try to rent the same apartment if you want to. No agency will stop you, and no owner or manager will stop you either, because all they are interested in is the rental fee.

There is a risk that the other residents in the building have reported an illegal short term rental, and there is also a risk that the co-propriete (condo association) has forbidden vacation rentals.

If someone from the Mayor's office or the co-propriete decides to enforce the law or the building's regulations, there is a risk that your apartment will become suddenly unavailable. You might be given any number of reasons for this, such emergency repairs, etc.

If this happens, you will have to deal with trying to find another place to stay and arrange for a refund. If you deal with an agency or owner who lists multiple properties, it is possible that they might try to relocate you, but you would not be able to choose the location or amenities you paid for. If you are travelling with children, the elderly or have special requests (such as elevators, separate beds, extra bathrooms), they would not be guaranteed.

Those are the facts of the matter.

This would suggest that Paris Autrement is not interested in whether the properties it manages are legal or not:

http://www.parisautrement.com/en/owners-investors

Exactly Tulips,it is a risk every time I have rented and know it but hopefully by my next return there will be a solution to this problem. I do think the article is relevant.

I have been renting homes and apartments for many years. I am not a huge fan of airbnb due to communication problems but have used many other agencies, flipkey, daft.ie, Vacationinparis etc. So far all has been near perfect. I give you Adrian Leed's newsletters because she is in the fight and does present the other side.

Indeed, the other side.

I heard she has a son called 'Luke'.

Everyone talks about a risk. What risk and how much of a risk with 10's of thousands of apartment rentals available.

OK, miniscule at best.

Now if you want to talk fraud, pariswat is great at that.

You the renter are in a fraudulent contract if you rent with Airbnb, Vrbo or other go between to the actual owner.

Or with a rental agency that uses Airbnb.

After all, pariswat pays taxes--isn't that wonderful.

OK, pariswat, let's have a delightful response!!

Understand, you have called me stupid, ignorant but I like you.

No harm, no foul.

thursday -- what makes you say that about ParisAutrement? What leads you to think they have illegal apartments? And wouldn't it vary apt to apt?

Because they are inviting all and sundry. It may vary, but they don't check, how would you know?

<<an attempt to discredit>>

Those in question have discredited themselves. They post so often, so much, on so many public forums, they have no doubt forgotten just how much personal information they have given everyone. Sometimes, it hasn't added up in the first place and/or is not necessarily accurate at all.