Apartment hunting in Paris
Dec 7th, 2015, 02:28 PM
#21
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Fuzzbucket, as near as I can remember, prior to your time pontificating here, you spent quite a lot of time pontificating on TA. When there, you told of how you used to rent your Paris apartment. Was that before or after your career writing fake reviews? I forget. At any rate, weren't apartment rentals illegal then as well?
You know, I don't mind Sarastro taking a strong and vocal position against rentals. At least he's not a hypocrite as you and St. Cirq are.
You know, I don't mind Sarastro taking a strong and vocal position against rentals. At least he's not a hypocrite as you and St. Cirq are.
Dec 7th, 2015, 02:47 PM
#22
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Hi there! Sorry if I'm intruding. I saw the question posted and just skimmed through the replies.
I've used VBRO four times in the last two years and have been extremely happy with it. We used it in Paris in the 6th not too long ago for two weeks. We had a great time (before the tragedy). There were three of us (Husband, Daughter and myself). My husband and I had the bedroom and my daughter used the fold out couch in the living room. It was great! It was on the 4nd floor but it had a lift. The kitchen was great to have! We have decided to always rent when we travel to Paris (our next trip will 4th time for us). It was quite a bit more affordable than a hotel which is what we had done the previous three times and we had quite a bit more space. We saved on meals too as we dined in a couple of times when exhausted from walking.
I've used VBRO four times in the last two years and have been extremely happy with it. We used it in Paris in the 6th not too long ago for two weeks. We had a great time (before the tragedy). There were three of us (Husband, Daughter and myself). My husband and I had the bedroom and my daughter used the fold out couch in the living room. It was great! It was on the 4nd floor but it had a lift. The kitchen was great to have! We have decided to always rent when we travel to Paris (our next trip will 4th time for us). It was quite a bit more affordable than a hotel which is what we had done the previous three times and we had quite a bit more space. We saved on meals too as we dined in a couple of times when exhausted from walking.
Dec 8th, 2015, 12:43 AM
#26
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FYI, Happygoin, the only rental I have ever made in a gazillion years of visiting Paris is an apartment in the 20th of a personal friend of mine, and I use it, never for more than a week, when he's legitimately on vacation. How you think you know my apartment rental history is beyond me. For the first 30 years of my visits to Paris I stayed exclusively in hotels. Once and once only, before all this apartment hullabaloo came to light, we stayed in an AirBnB apartment where the owner was in residence - never again.
So yes, I remain on the side of the righteous, if that's how you care to call it. But don't pretend to know my rental history.
So yes, I remain on the side of the righteous, if that's how you care to call it. But don't pretend to know my rental history.
Dec 8th, 2015, 04:18 AM
#28
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I have always been astounded at the personal attacks on this forum. Dialogue should be open and allow people with opinions on both sides of an argument to present their points without being personally attacked. Frankly, I thought it refreshing to hear the other side of the story to the one that is constantly pounded in here.
I can see valid points on both sides of the argument. With tourism such a large part of the Parisian economy, I also think that there will be a nosedive in tourism if apartment rentals of a week or two to tourists are virtually eliminated. And, no, to me a concept like Citadines is not a real apartment.
Question for fuzzbucket: "You should avoid a listing which does not feature a 24/7 front desk service." Why in the world does someone who wants an apartment need front desk service? That is a characteristic of a hotel not an apartment. Most B&Bs don't provide this either.
I can see valid points on both sides of the argument. With tourism such a large part of the Parisian economy, I also think that there will be a nosedive in tourism if apartment rentals of a week or two to tourists are virtually eliminated. And, no, to me a concept like Citadines is not a real apartment.
Question for fuzzbucket: "You should avoid a listing which does not feature a 24/7 front desk service." Why in the world does someone who wants an apartment need front desk service? That is a characteristic of a hotel not an apartment. Most B&Bs don't provide this either.
Dec 8th, 2015, 05:10 AM
#29
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There are opinions and there are laws. I also prefer to stay in a flat if I'm in a city for more than a couple of days. Of course you can book through any of the sites mentioned here. The agencies are all 'legit'. But the apartments they are letting are probably not. If you still want to book one, go ahead, but beware of the potential problems.
There was plenty of tourism before the 'living like a local' thing started.
Paris and it's inhabitants must decide this. The city doesn't exist for tourists.
There are also US cities that have banned short-term lets, for much the same reasons as in Paris.
There was plenty of tourism before the 'living like a local' thing started.
Paris and it's inhabitants must decide this. The city doesn't exist for tourists.
There are also US cities that have banned short-term lets, for much the same reasons as in Paris.
Dec 8th, 2015, 05:34 AM
#30
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Question for fuzzbucket: "You should avoid a listing which does not feature a 24/7 front desk service." Why in the world does someone who wants an apartment need front desk service? That is a characteristic of a hotel not an apartment. Most B&Bs don't provide this either.
I'm not Fuzz, but I'll give some insights :
- because it helps when you arrive at 11pm.
I stayed at an appt in the 18th which has a front desk but it closes at 8 pm. So I got a SMS telling me where the key would be : under the mat (true) - since I was searching at the wrong landing, I nearly destroyed all the mats I saw;
- because this frontdesk is equipped with printer and can make an invoice - for a lot of tourists, getting an invoice is not a problem, for me it is a must. I once went to a B&B in Paris, sleeping in a room with the owner in the next, and I got the invoice nr2 of the year. It was july. I'm sure the guys declare all his revenues to the fisc.
- because it gives the impression that the location is legit : if you have a frontdesk, you are in the open, and you have to pay the guy who is there. Hence you must declare revenues to pay the guy.
Face it - most of the rentals are illegal. Whether you care or not is not important, some tourists declare that they have the right to do what they want. Some renters too.
Whether your appartment is still operating or closed by the authorities when you arrive should be a question you have to ask yourself.
As a footnote, I'm disgusted at the level of personal attacks that one can see here. But at least, contrary to TA, posts tend to stay so everyone can make an opinion of the poster.
I'm not Fuzz, but I'll give some insights :
- because it helps when you arrive at 11pm.
I stayed at an appt in the 18th which has a front desk but it closes at 8 pm. So I got a SMS telling me where the key would be : under the mat (true) - since I was searching at the wrong landing, I nearly destroyed all the mats I saw;
- because this frontdesk is equipped with printer and can make an invoice - for a lot of tourists, getting an invoice is not a problem, for me it is a must. I once went to a B&B in Paris, sleeping in a room with the owner in the next, and I got the invoice nr2 of the year. It was july. I'm sure the guys declare all his revenues to the fisc.
- because it gives the impression that the location is legit : if you have a frontdesk, you are in the open, and you have to pay the guy who is there. Hence you must declare revenues to pay the guy.
Face it - most of the rentals are illegal. Whether you care or not is not important, some tourists declare that they have the right to do what they want. Some renters too.
Whether your appartment is still operating or closed by the authorities when you arrive should be a question you have to ask yourself.
As a footnote, I'm disgusted at the level of personal attacks that one can see here. But at least, contrary to TA, posts tend to stay so everyone can make an opinion of the poster.
Dec 8th, 2015, 06:19 AM
#32
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janisj, St. Cirq goes back a long way on TA. Both she and Fuzzbucket divulged the information I posted here themselves. It's not heresay and they're not personal attacks if they're true, which they are.
Hypocrisy in any form is abhorrent, but especially the self-righteous kind.
Hypocrisy in any form is abhorrent, but especially the self-righteous kind.
Dec 8th, 2015, 02:06 PM
#34
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HappyGoin, I have reported your remarks as personal attacks, not only because I find them offensive, but because you have a propensity for not adding anything useful to a conversation about which you know very little. I don't pontificate, though I do admit to being a very fast typist which allows me to get in a lot of information.
Whatever is behind this self-righteous outrage - you were banned from TA as well - won't fly on this forum. Personally vindictive comments are not welcome here. You have never offered any information to add that does not reflect your personal bias on the subject of apartment rentals. You have no facts to add to the conversation, as those of us who live in Paris do, though you rely on your friends who own rental property or occasionally visit here. One of your friends demanded that I defend my work history and my life - to my credit, I responded honestly. The many people who own illegal rentals in Paris, as well as their friends who "help" advertise for them, have not admitted they do so.
I know many of your friends - and know a witch hunt when I see it. It is interesting to see who you do not attack, when some of us repeat the same information. I respectfully suggest that you and your pals find some other way to amuse yourselves.
Back to reality - yesterday, my computer went down before I could add the rest of my comments about what constitutes a legal apartment in Paris:
As I said, listing agencies are not breaking the law by advertising apartments for rent, as long as they pay taxes and city lodging fees.
The clients who rent apartments which do not comply with the new laws in Paris are breaking the law, whether they are aware of the changes in the laws or whether they care or not.
However, clients who rent illegal apartments will not be prosecuted or evicted. It is up to them to decide how they feel about making a moral decision based on the fact that "everybody else does it and I don't know anybody who's been caught yet."
The people who are prosecuted are tenants who sublease without the permission or knowledge of their landlords, as well as the property owners who continue to list apartments which do not comply with the new laws, who accept all or a portion of the rental fee in cash, and who do not pay taxes or city fees in the city where their rental property is located.
Tenants who sublease without permission face eviction, and their "tenants" must leave as well. Property owners are given the chance to stop renting and comply with the new law, but if they continue to rent, are issued significant fines (per day, per rental unit), and may face further penalties.
There is no list of legal rentals, and there is much confusion due to lobbying groups claiming to be working with the city to solve the housing problems. The Mayor's Office is busy trying to compile dossiers on absentee property owners and other fiscal refugees. This takes time, and that's why it will be a long time before a list might become available.
The reason I suggested people look for apart'hotels with 24/7 front desk service is because this means it is a legitimate rental. A large number of illegal rentals are now using the term "apart'hotel" or "on call concierge service" - pretty easy to recognize them, since it's obvious that nobody lives in these apartments. You don't need to use the front desk services unless you want to.
ParisWat's observations were also correct. It's no fun finding out when you arrive that you cannot access your apartment, when you're dead tired and must haul your luggage around for a few hours while trying to eat a sandwich because you don't want to eat in a decent restaurant before you can take a shower.
Citadines and Adagio are clean, basic hotel rooms with a little more space and kitchen facilities, and most of them are located in very convenient and charming neighborhoods. A handful of other charming, legal apart'hotels do exist in Paris. Many people just need a place to relax and a refrigerator, and there are many of those available in budget and moderately-priced hotels in Paris.
Depending on the day the survey is taken, Paris is either the Number One tourist destination or certainly within the Top Three places everyone hopes to visit. If you decide that the ban on short-term vacation rentals in Paris doesn't jibe with your idea of a nice vacation, someone else will be glad to spend the money you won't.
Short-term and vacation rentals worldwide are problematic. It will take time for this "sharing" economy to settle down. In the meantime, it's your choice to either obey the law or not, and take your chances about what kind of vacation you'd like to plan in Paris.
Whatever is behind this self-righteous outrage - you were banned from TA as well - won't fly on this forum. Personally vindictive comments are not welcome here. You have never offered any information to add that does not reflect your personal bias on the subject of apartment rentals. You have no facts to add to the conversation, as those of us who live in Paris do, though you rely on your friends who own rental property or occasionally visit here. One of your friends demanded that I defend my work history and my life - to my credit, I responded honestly. The many people who own illegal rentals in Paris, as well as their friends who "help" advertise for them, have not admitted they do so.
I know many of your friends - and know a witch hunt when I see it. It is interesting to see who you do not attack, when some of us repeat the same information. I respectfully suggest that you and your pals find some other way to amuse yourselves.
Back to reality - yesterday, my computer went down before I could add the rest of my comments about what constitutes a legal apartment in Paris:
As I said, listing agencies are not breaking the law by advertising apartments for rent, as long as they pay taxes and city lodging fees.
The clients who rent apartments which do not comply with the new laws in Paris are breaking the law, whether they are aware of the changes in the laws or whether they care or not.
However, clients who rent illegal apartments will not be prosecuted or evicted. It is up to them to decide how they feel about making a moral decision based on the fact that "everybody else does it and I don't know anybody who's been caught yet."
The people who are prosecuted are tenants who sublease without the permission or knowledge of their landlords, as well as the property owners who continue to list apartments which do not comply with the new laws, who accept all or a portion of the rental fee in cash, and who do not pay taxes or city fees in the city where their rental property is located.
Tenants who sublease without permission face eviction, and their "tenants" must leave as well. Property owners are given the chance to stop renting and comply with the new law, but if they continue to rent, are issued significant fines (per day, per rental unit), and may face further penalties.
There is no list of legal rentals, and there is much confusion due to lobbying groups claiming to be working with the city to solve the housing problems. The Mayor's Office is busy trying to compile dossiers on absentee property owners and other fiscal refugees. This takes time, and that's why it will be a long time before a list might become available.
The reason I suggested people look for apart'hotels with 24/7 front desk service is because this means it is a legitimate rental. A large number of illegal rentals are now using the term "apart'hotel" or "on call concierge service" - pretty easy to recognize them, since it's obvious that nobody lives in these apartments. You don't need to use the front desk services unless you want to.
ParisWat's observations were also correct. It's no fun finding out when you arrive that you cannot access your apartment, when you're dead tired and must haul your luggage around for a few hours while trying to eat a sandwich because you don't want to eat in a decent restaurant before you can take a shower.
Citadines and Adagio are clean, basic hotel rooms with a little more space and kitchen facilities, and most of them are located in very convenient and charming neighborhoods. A handful of other charming, legal apart'hotels do exist in Paris. Many people just need a place to relax and a refrigerator, and there are many of those available in budget and moderately-priced hotels in Paris.
Depending on the day the survey is taken, Paris is either the Number One tourist destination or certainly within the Top Three places everyone hopes to visit. If you decide that the ban on short-term vacation rentals in Paris doesn't jibe with your idea of a nice vacation, someone else will be glad to spend the money you won't.
Short-term and vacation rentals worldwide are problematic. It will take time for this "sharing" economy to settle down. In the meantime, it's your choice to either obey the law or not, and take your chances about what kind of vacation you'd like to plan in Paris.
Dec 8th, 2015, 09:41 PM
#36
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NewbE
You are not differentiating between rudeness sarcasm and personal attack.
The poster who digs sh!t and throws it on the forum with no regards to the thread but in an attempt to discredit and insult somebody may very well do it politely but will behave like a frustrated despicable b... person.
Her post is just mean and is a personal attack.
When we discuss like nearly normal people and don't share at all the same views we react about what is being said and there is always a level of restraint and of respect that will prevent us to resorting to such foul behavior.
Now you also confuse rudeness with bluntness and sarcasm if you refer to me at least.
I expressly try to remain polite but love to be quite blunt. I am despite being a smart tall and gorgeous tall actor (err) at a slight disadvantage since I have to use a bloody foreign language not as suitably organized to sarcasm s French is. After all the English Kings had to import massively words of French to bring some culture in their language.
So don't think I am being rude when I can't get over subtleties due to my using a second grade language.
Ah semantic again : I wrote the post behaves like ... When I should have said IS in this specific case.
No need to take gloves with such people.
You are not differentiating between rudeness sarcasm and personal attack.
The poster who digs sh!t and throws it on the forum with no regards to the thread but in an attempt to discredit and insult somebody may very well do it politely but will behave like a frustrated despicable b... person.
Her post is just mean and is a personal attack.
When we discuss like nearly normal people and don't share at all the same views we react about what is being said and there is always a level of restraint and of respect that will prevent us to resorting to such foul behavior.
Now you also confuse rudeness with bluntness and sarcasm if you refer to me at least.
I expressly try to remain polite but love to be quite blunt. I am despite being a smart tall and gorgeous tall actor (err) at a slight disadvantage since I have to use a bloody foreign language not as suitably organized to sarcasm s French is. After all the English Kings had to import massively words of French to bring some culture in their language.
So don't think I am being rude when I can't get over subtleties due to my using a second grade language.
Ah semantic again : I wrote the post behaves like ... When I should have said IS in this specific case.
No need to take gloves with such people.
Dec 8th, 2015, 10:39 PM
#38
>>"Personal attacks"? What a bunch of crybabies. <<
Fine NewBe -- but apparently Fodors agreed since most of the offending posts have since been deleted, and your post fits the same mold . . .
(and no, I did not triangle anything).
Fine NewBe -- but apparently Fodors agreed since most of the offending posts have since been deleted, and your post fits the same mold . . .
(and no, I did not triangle anything).
Dec 9th, 2015, 03:49 AM
#39
For some people they may be just be learning about the legality issues of Paris apts. What is too bad is that some of these posts on Paris apts do contain helpful info for a tourist trying to figure out what to do and what may or may not be legal. I would imagine that most posters esp first timers will not bother to read thru all the insults both about other posters and tourists themselves to get to those specks of helpful & correct info. And being self righteous really adds nothing of value to someone sorting through all this.
Dec 9th, 2015, 11:14 AM
#40
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Those of us who post information about the rental situation which we know to be true, are simply trying to present the other side of the coin.
There's a whole lot of information to wade through, and it's hard to make sense of it unless you have access to all the information at one time, and not just snippets and sound-bites.
Unfortunately, reporting accurate information has a negative impact on people who make money from rental apartments in Paris. There are people who specialize in derailing these threads, trying to discredit the posters and relaying hearsay, just so they and their friends won't lose rental income.
It's sad, but that's really all there is to it.
There's a whole lot of information to wade through, and it's hard to make sense of it unless you have access to all the information at one time, and not just snippets and sound-bites.
Unfortunately, reporting accurate information has a negative impact on people who make money from rental apartments in Paris. There are people who specialize in derailing these threads, trying to discredit the posters and relaying hearsay, just so they and their friends won't lose rental income.
It's sad, but that's really all there is to it.
