An "age" question.
Feb 25th, 2008, 05:10 AM
#21
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walkinaround, you definitely don't want to visit Mexico where, at many cultural sights, there is a whole different fee schedule for Mexicans than there is for tourists. We rich foreigners pay more.
Feb 25th, 2008, 05:47 AM
#22
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A 18 years old person is an adult age person so it is not entitled per se to any discount. If she's a student and there's a discount for students then with the ISIC card she can have it.
In some countries in Europe there is a card for nationals called "Young card" (Carnet Joven, in Spain) which allows people between 18 and 26 to have some discounts but only where it is offered , not in every museum or attraction or transport.
In some countries in Europe there is a card for nationals called "Young card" (Carnet Joven, in Spain) which allows people between 18 and 26 to have some discounts but only where it is offered , not in every museum or attraction or transport.
Feb 25th, 2008, 06:14 AM
#23
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Just in case anyone is interested the free entry for Europeans under 18 and over 65 that I mentioned for the Accademia in Florence wasn't the only time we came across this in Italy.
For example the Borghese museum in Rome was also 'free' although there was a mandatory supplement of 6euros!
Yes, we noticed the different price brackets for Mexicans at cultural sites in Mexico but I do think this is correct. I'd want the locals to be able to afford to see their own history. Museums in London are free to all.
I just got back from Florida where state residents get very much reduced rates to Sea World (and in California too). A one day ticket buys a pass for a year so this form of pricing happens just about everywhere.
For example the Borghese museum in Rome was also 'free' although there was a mandatory supplement of 6euros!
Yes, we noticed the different price brackets for Mexicans at cultural sites in Mexico but I do think this is correct. I'd want the locals to be able to afford to see their own history. Museums in London are free to all.
I just got back from Florida where state residents get very much reduced rates to Sea World (and in California too). A one day ticket buys a pass for a year so this form of pricing happens just about everywhere.
Feb 25th, 2008, 07:19 AM
#24
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Differing price brackets is an interesting issue. I agree that in third world countries, the residents should be able to afford to experience their own patrimony. And perhaps some would argue that tax payers are already supporting the maintenance of these sites.
On the other hand, with tourism a large part of the economy which benefits everyone, should visiters not be made to feel completely welcome? Do higher prices annoy foreign visitors to any of these places?
On the other hand, with tourism a large part of the economy which benefits everyone, should visiters not be made to feel completely welcome? Do higher prices annoy foreign visitors to any of these places?
Feb 25th, 2008, 08:12 AM
#25
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The tourist prices in Mexico for the various Mayan ruins are a bargain in my opinion.
I've just shelled out 24GB pounds ($48?) for a ticket to the King Tut exhibition in London. That would probably cover my entrance fees to most of the Mayan ruins in Mexico and certainly covers the main ones (Coba, Chichen Itza, Tulum).
I don't think that tourists should feel less welcomed if they have to pay a higher fee than locals for the aforementioned reasons and if some are 'annoyed' by the higher prices then they can choose to not go.
In general I presume and hope that most of the entrance fees go towards maintainance and huge profits aren't made.
I've just shelled out 24GB pounds ($48?) for a ticket to the King Tut exhibition in London. That would probably cover my entrance fees to most of the Mayan ruins in Mexico and certainly covers the main ones (Coba, Chichen Itza, Tulum).
I don't think that tourists should feel less welcomed if they have to pay a higher fee than locals for the aforementioned reasons and if some are 'annoyed' by the higher prices then they can choose to not go.
In general I presume and hope that most of the entrance fees go towards maintainance and huge profits aren't made.
Feb 25th, 2008, 08:19 AM
#26
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citizenship and residency are two different things. i still maintain that it is quite rare for sites in western countries to discriminate based on CITIZENSHIP status. yes this does happen in places like china, etc. This is very wrong, IMO as it threatens to treat a whole segment of a population as second class citizens (well, i guess i mean "second class non-citizens"
. often the non-citizen residents of a country (even the legal ones) are the poorest and there should not be special rights for citizens that are denied to legal resident non-citizens of a country.
. often the non-citizen residents of a country (even the legal ones) are the poorest and there should not be special rights for citizens that are denied to legal resident non-citizens of a country.
Feb 25th, 2008, 09:25 AM
#27
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As non citizens of the USA but taxpayers and legal residents nonetheless we are discriminated against. Not allowed attend town meetings or to vote even in local elections etc.
Where did the idea 'no taxation without representation' spring from?
Anyway, it happens around the world and there are pros and cons attached to citizenship and to residency of most countries. Many long term residents choose not to apply for citizenship for advantageous reasons and free museum entry is unlikely to change their minds.
walkingaround,
<<<europe does not have different pricing structures dictated by a person's citizenship. this contradicts the standards of trade that all civilised nations adhere to. >>>
It does
<<<citizenship and residency are two different things. i still maintain that it is quite rare for sites in western countries to discriminate based on CITIZENSHIP status.
>>>
Yes, citizenship is different to residency and western countries do discriminate because that's the point of having the different classifications...it's rare to discriminate at tourist sites but more common than you were aware.
Where did the idea 'no taxation without representation' spring from?
Anyway, it happens around the world and there are pros and cons attached to citizenship and to residency of most countries. Many long term residents choose not to apply for citizenship for advantageous reasons and free museum entry is unlikely to change their minds.
walkingaround,
<<<europe does not have different pricing structures dictated by a person's citizenship. this contradicts the standards of trade that all civilised nations adhere to. >>>
It does
<<<citizenship and residency are two different things. i still maintain that it is quite rare for sites in western countries to discriminate based on CITIZENSHIP status.
>>>
Yes, citizenship is different to residency and western countries do discriminate because that's the point of having the different classifications...it's rare to discriminate at tourist sites but more common than you were aware.
Feb 25th, 2008, 08:29 PM
#28
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highflyer,
there's an easy solution to your problem of perceived discrimination...become a citizen. Why should someone who is not enough committed to a country to become a citizen have the right to make important decision in elections? I know that years ago, I wanted to have that right, so I became a citizen!
there's an easy solution to your problem of perceived discrimination...become a citizen. Why should someone who is not enough committed to a country to become a citizen have the right to make important decision in elections? I know that years ago, I wanted to have that right, so I became a citizen!
Feb 26th, 2008, 05:21 AM
#29
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lyb,
Ha, easy solution!? When did you become a citizen and how long did it take?
We've been here 6 years and we're no closer to getting Green cards than when we came. We're just at the point of having to change our visa to a different one as we can no longer renew the old one. This will cost the company at least $10,000 and will need to be renewed in 2 years.
So we're back to square one on the green card application...reapply...it'll take a few years...
I think the whole process is longer and more difficult since 9/11.
My kids are in school here, we live here and we pay taxes if it was just commitment that we had to show I think we'd be citizens already but it's not.
Ha, easy solution!? When did you become a citizen and how long did it take?
We've been here 6 years and we're no closer to getting Green cards than when we came. We're just at the point of having to change our visa to a different one as we can no longer renew the old one. This will cost the company at least $10,000 and will need to be renewed in 2 years.
So we're back to square one on the green card application...reapply...it'll take a few years...
I think the whole process is longer and more difficult since 9/11.
My kids are in school here, we live here and we pay taxes if it was just commitment that we had to show I think we'd be citizens already but it's not.
Feb 26th, 2008, 05:45 AM
#30
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Thanks for the laugh, GoPlanB. Do they consider her 18 when she's 18?
But I agree that I've never heard of "18 and under" but rather "under 18". You do see the difference, right?
But I agree that I've never heard of "18 and under" but rather "under 18". You do see the difference, right?
Feb 26th, 2008, 10:23 AM
#32
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I am confused, but in my experience in many EC countries most free entrance benefits are ONLY for EC members.....
which to me means that you have to be a citizen or resident of one of the members of the EC.
This always makes me feel bad, I am referring to the fact that many museums and monasteries etc. are free once a WEEK , usually Wednesdays, but only for members of the EC. Then to feel better I say to myself, well they have to maintain at least two bureaucracies with their taxes, one in their country and one in Brussels may be it is ok that only they should be entitled to a free day. Then I pay happily my ticket and get in.
which to me means that you have to be a citizen or resident of one of the members of the EC.
This always makes me feel bad, I am referring to the fact that many museums and monasteries etc. are free once a WEEK , usually Wednesdays, but only for members of the EC. Then to feel better I say to myself, well they have to maintain at least two bureaucracies with their taxes, one in their country and one in Brussels may be it is ok that only they should be entitled to a free day. Then I pay happily my ticket and get in.
Feb 26th, 2008, 11:45 AM
#33
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>>>>
Yes, citizenship is different to residency and western countries do discriminate because that's the point of having the different classifications
>>>>>
highflyer...i do not really understand your point. i think it is extremely rare for western countries to have different pricing structures for CITIZENS (not residents). here the op has pointed out one place that does and it seems really stupid to me for many reasons.
i don't carry my passport around with me so i don't know how i would even prove citizenship. here in the uk and in most places , even your birth certificate does not indicate or prove citizenship.
my point isn't theoretical or how you feel to be a non-citizen somewhere. it's about how extremely rare it is to have to prove CITIZENSHIP in order to get preferred prices for things and admissions. if you're in america, you know that many people do not even have passports. do they carry around their birth certificates to ensure they can get these fantasy discounts? as far as i know, an american drivers licence does not indicate citizenship. my uk one certainly doesn't.
Yes, citizenship is different to residency and western countries do discriminate because that's the point of having the different classifications
>>>>>
highflyer...i do not really understand your point. i think it is extremely rare for western countries to have different pricing structures for CITIZENS (not residents). here the op has pointed out one place that does and it seems really stupid to me for many reasons.
i don't carry my passport around with me so i don't know how i would even prove citizenship. here in the uk and in most places , even your birth certificate does not indicate or prove citizenship.
my point isn't theoretical or how you feel to be a non-citizen somewhere. it's about how extremely rare it is to have to prove CITIZENSHIP in order to get preferred prices for things and admissions. if you're in america, you know that many people do not even have passports. do they carry around their birth certificates to ensure they can get these fantasy discounts? as far as i know, an american drivers licence does not indicate citizenship. my uk one certainly doesn't.
Feb 26th, 2008, 12:31 PM
#34
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walkingaround
The OP didn't point out one place that was free for EU citizens. I pointed out a couple; the Borghese in Rome and the Accademia in Florence.
The Uffizi is also free for EU citizens under 18 and over 65 and I don't think we paid for the kids at the Colosseum either.
All these are in Italy so maybe you should have a go at them.
In the US you'd be right in thinking passports as ID would not go down well. I've found that the discounts and free admission here are usually for residents of that STATE and so a driving license suffices for ID.
We've been asked to show passports at Eurocar when picking up a car in London in order to get 'European rates' as per the website so this does happen in the UK.
My only real point is I don't think with these examples that this can be considered rare. Maybe just rare for you or outside your experience.
I apologise if I went off point and confused you with my visa issues.
Truce?
The OP didn't point out one place that was free for EU citizens. I pointed out a couple; the Borghese in Rome and the Accademia in Florence.
The Uffizi is also free for EU citizens under 18 and over 65 and I don't think we paid for the kids at the Colosseum either.
All these are in Italy so maybe you should have a go at them.
In the US you'd be right in thinking passports as ID would not go down well. I've found that the discounts and free admission here are usually for residents of that STATE and so a driving license suffices for ID.
We've been asked to show passports at Eurocar when picking up a car in London in order to get 'European rates' as per the website so this does happen in the UK.
My only real point is I don't think with these examples that this can be considered rare. Maybe just rare for you or outside your experience.
I apologise if I went off point and confused you with my visa issues.
Truce?
Feb 26th, 2008, 07:52 PM
#35
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highflyer,
i became a citizen about 20 years ago and the whole process took about 2 years. My oldest sister became a citizen about 9 years ago and the whole took a year at the most.
I don't understand how you have been living in the country without a green card, maybe that is the difference, we didn't move to the U.S until we had our green cards. by the time I applied for my citizenship I had already been a legal resident for about 15 years or so.
However, I am not saying that the INS is a well run organization...they are probably one of the worst with more delays and losing papers, etc....
Though that has nothing to do with the fact that it is perfectly correct that a non-citizen doesn't have the right to vote. As a non citizen you can still make an impact on elections by volunteering for the candidate of your choice, which I did before I became a U S citizen.
i became a citizen about 20 years ago and the whole process took about 2 years. My oldest sister became a citizen about 9 years ago and the whole took a year at the most.
I don't understand how you have been living in the country without a green card, maybe that is the difference, we didn't move to the U.S until we had our green cards. by the time I applied for my citizenship I had already been a legal resident for about 15 years or so.
However, I am not saying that the INS is a well run organization...they are probably one of the worst with more delays and losing papers, etc....
Though that has nothing to do with the fact that it is perfectly correct that a non-citizen doesn't have the right to vote. As a non citizen you can still make an impact on elections by volunteering for the candidate of your choice, which I did before I became a U S citizen.
Feb 26th, 2008, 10:21 PM
#36
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per the uk europcar website, they do not ask for a passport if you are a european resident (i assume that they use the licence to judge this). therefore, they cannot offer different rates based on CITIZENSHIP because they do not check your passport (as long as you merely show you are a resident) and have no way of evaluating your citizenship. i have hired a car from them a couple of times in the uk and they never did ask for a passport....good thing because i don't carry it while travelling within the country and carry no proof of citizenship unless i leave the country.
i have no idea about italy...does anyone know if it is usual for italians to carry around proof of CITIZENSHIP on a day to day basis? if not, how do these sites expect people to prove citizenship? i guess they assume that non-italian eu citizens would carry a passport (as i believe it is the law there). perhaps these sites are poorly translated or using imprecise terms and they mean 'resident' rather than citizen??? although all three that i looked at do clearly say 'eu citizenship'. this is bizarre.
truce? no need...this is civil. i only find it interesting because i think that offering different rates by citizenship (not residency) is very discrimitory and contravenes fair trading. the reason i exclude residency is that you can make an argument that taxes are paid to support the attraction, but i do not know of a good argument to charge non-citizen residents more than citizens.
i have no idea about italy...does anyone know if it is usual for italians to carry around proof of CITIZENSHIP on a day to day basis? if not, how do these sites expect people to prove citizenship? i guess they assume that non-italian eu citizens would carry a passport (as i believe it is the law there). perhaps these sites are poorly translated or using imprecise terms and they mean 'resident' rather than citizen??? although all three that i looked at do clearly say 'eu citizenship'. this is bizarre.
truce? no need...this is civil. i only find it interesting because i think that offering different rates by citizenship (not residency) is very discrimitory and contravenes fair trading. the reason i exclude residency is that you can make an argument that taxes are paid to support the attraction, but i do not know of a good argument to charge non-citizen residents more than citizens.
Feb 27th, 2008, 05:33 AM
#37
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walkingaround,
This was our experience with Eurocar. Eurocar do not ask for a passport on their website but we found that they quoted different rates for different countries when you book. I'd found this information on Fodors and apparently it's even cheaper if you book in other parts of Europe.
The rate in US $ was higher than booking via the site which quoted in GBP so we booked at the cheaper rate.
My husband showed up with his US driving license and without his British license and was asked for his passport so that he would be charged the lower rate.
In Italy, I'd read the information on the websites and so we carried the kids' passports with us and asked at each museum if they were entitled to free entry. At each one we were asked to show the passports which they checked (looked at photos and one even checked the age of my son who is 17) so I don't think it's a translation error.
I do believe that if we hadn't asked we would not have received free entry.
lyb,
My husband has a working visa but no green card. We were informed that we have to apply for green cards before we can apply for citizenship.
We have no family here to support our application so everything is dependent on my husband's employers.
Initially, we were told it would take 4 or 5 years to get a green card. About 3 years later we heard that the rules had changed but we couldn't reapply as we would be processed under the old system.
We've extended our original visa to it's limit (6years) and now have to change to a different class of visa and reapply for green cards....so we start again.
BTW, I have volunteered and assisted at local elections and my chosen candidate was successful.
This was our experience with Eurocar. Eurocar do not ask for a passport on their website but we found that they quoted different rates for different countries when you book. I'd found this information on Fodors and apparently it's even cheaper if you book in other parts of Europe.
The rate in US $ was higher than booking via the site which quoted in GBP so we booked at the cheaper rate.
My husband showed up with his US driving license and without his British license and was asked for his passport so that he would be charged the lower rate.
In Italy, I'd read the information on the websites and so we carried the kids' passports with us and asked at each museum if they were entitled to free entry. At each one we were asked to show the passports which they checked (looked at photos and one even checked the age of my son who is 17) so I don't think it's a translation error.
I do believe that if we hadn't asked we would not have received free entry.
lyb,
My husband has a working visa but no green card. We were informed that we have to apply for green cards before we can apply for citizenship.
We have no family here to support our application so everything is dependent on my husband's employers.
Initially, we were told it would take 4 or 5 years to get a green card. About 3 years later we heard that the rules had changed but we couldn't reapply as we would be processed under the old system.
We've extended our original visa to it's limit (6years) and now have to change to a different class of visa and reapply for green cards....so we start again.
BTW, I have volunteered and assisted at local elections and my chosen candidate was successful.
