Am I getting old? I liked it better before...
Jul 18th, 2006, 04:19 AM
#21
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Being not a native English speaker, I may have given the wrong impression with this topic, after reading some of the messages. I´m extremely happy to live in a rich country (how else?), with good education, health, roads,...But I still feel, somehow, "this is not it, not quite", there are ways of living that are disappearing, quality shops are being replaced by franchises, food tastes similar everywhere, we all go on holiday to the same places...Of course most countries have undergone this same process, but now I´m referring to mine and I am devoloping a "sense of not belonging, or not wanting to belong" to this kind of society (acknowledging the many, many good things that a strong economy has brought along).
In any case, I´m not being totally rational or I´m getting too old (which is the point of all this).
In any case, I´m not being totally rational or I´m getting too old (which is the point of all this).
Jul 18th, 2006, 08:02 AM
#22
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If you, mikelyana, are getting too old at 37, consider this: I am about to enter my 9th decade -- and I welcome positive change with all my heart. Only in a rowboat can you move forward while looking backward.
Jul 18th, 2006, 08:59 AM
#24
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This post reminds me of a time I took my mother to the Black Country museum near where she lives in England (http://www.bclm.co.uk/). It's a museum where they have rebuilt old miner's cottages as they would have been in the late 19th/early 20th century. Bare floors, no electricity, pig pen in the back yard, you get the picture.
Now, my mother is an elegant, well-spoken, affluent woman in her late 70s, but it wasn't always so. She clearly remembers her grandparents destitution, living hand to mouth without two brass farthings to rub together. As she stood in one of the houses (just a wooden chair and a rag rug on the floor, very depressing scene), an equally expensively dressed older woman beside her said:
"Oh, but they were so much happier then".
My mother, who never swears, replied:
"Well you might have been, but I bloody wasn't".
Now, my mother is an elegant, well-spoken, affluent woman in her late 70s, but it wasn't always so. She clearly remembers her grandparents destitution, living hand to mouth without two brass farthings to rub together. As she stood in one of the houses (just a wooden chair and a rag rug on the floor, very depressing scene), an equally expensively dressed older woman beside her said:
"Oh, but they were so much happier then".
My mother, who never swears, replied:
"Well you might have been, but I bloody wasn't".
Aug 6th, 2009, 11:44 PM
#25
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Three years later, I´m turning 41 in just 3 days...and things keep getting worse in those aspects related on my first post.....although the present economic situation seems to be getting some things back to normal and more to our former style of living....which may not be that good, either, I don´t know. In any case, I´m glad things improve.
Aug 7th, 2009, 01:22 AM
#27
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mikelg, do you live in a big city? Sounds like it. I spent my 50th anniversary in Spain, on a farm in the countryside. Life went on very much like it always had. Maybe a bit financially richer, but still the same. People in my (European) country have always known how to go "back to basics", and they also do that on just about every vacation. You could try the same. For example I have a cottage in the countryside, in a forest, by a lake. No electricity, no running water, no news. After a month there your head is totally empty and it feels good and almost exciting to come back to "civilization". Try that, I have seen many empty old farm buildings in rural Spain.
Aug 7th, 2009, 01:39 AM
#28
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I don't really get nostalgia. At best, it is little more than daydreaming. At its worst, it is used as a tool to protect the status of the privileged - it always seems to me that it is always white men who pine for the good ole days. Things were never as good as some remember.
And frankly, I have little interest in having things stay the same. This applies even for those things that I like. I would find such a world stupefying and dull. People complain about the sameness/internationalization of places - Europeized or Americanized or Globalized - but why, then yearn for sameness over time? No, I'll take change every time.
If I wanted an idealized view of the way Europe was or, rather, is percieved to have been, now that we have the benefit of years to allow us to forget the truth (or at least the truths we want to forget), then I will go to Epcot. If I want to experience a living/breathing place, then I will go to a place and take it as it is now.
For those that do find themselves suffering from a yearning, for the good ole days, take heart, you aren't the only one that looks at the past through rose-colored glasses.
http://www.apa.org/releases/happy_memory.html
And frankly, I have little interest in having things stay the same. This applies even for those things that I like. I would find such a world stupefying and dull. People complain about the sameness/internationalization of places - Europeized or Americanized or Globalized - but why, then yearn for sameness over time? No, I'll take change every time.
If I wanted an idealized view of the way Europe was or, rather, is percieved to have been, now that we have the benefit of years to allow us to forget the truth (or at least the truths we want to forget), then I will go to Epcot. If I want to experience a living/breathing place, then I will go to a place and take it as it is now.
For those that do find themselves suffering from a yearning, for the good ole days, take heart, you aren't the only one that looks at the past through rose-colored glasses.
http://www.apa.org/releases/happy_memory.html
Aug 7th, 2009, 05:14 AM
#30
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The thing is....you may all be right, but three years after my original post Spain keeps losing its personality, mainly because of its wealth. Do I like it? Yes. But still missing that special touch about that former chaotic and senseless and happier country.
I live close to Bilbao, not in town, but in a nice neighbourhood by the sea. No major problems with that, it´s the sense that we are losing quickly the distinctivity of our way of living. That´s all.
I live close to Bilbao, not in town, but in a nice neighbourhood by the sea. No major problems with that, it´s the sense that we are losing quickly the distinctivity of our way of living. That´s all.
Aug 7th, 2009, 06:08 AM
#31
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I've never been to Spain. Don't really know why except it has never appealed to me.
Mikelg, I read your post with interest and laughed out loud when I read what PalQ said "When i first went to Spain in 1969 (!) i saw thousands of shacks people were living in along rail lines - this shocked me!" Well Pal, come to South Africa and get shocked all over again because in 2009 we still have thousands upon thousands of shacks made from cardboard, plastic, wood, mud, tin, or anything off the scrapheap, and not only next to the railway line but all over the countryside mostly next to freeways!
Mikelg, I read your post with interest and laughed out loud when I read what PalQ said "When i first went to Spain in 1969 (!) i saw thousands of shacks people were living in along rail lines - this shocked me!" Well Pal, come to South Africa and get shocked all over again because in 2009 we still have thousands upon thousands of shacks made from cardboard, plastic, wood, mud, tin, or anything off the scrapheap, and not only next to the railway line but all over the countryside mostly next to freeways!
Aug 7th, 2009, 06:09 AM
#32
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you can't have it all mate. my former neighbour in andalucia only recently got electricity, still has no running water or drains and has to push a wheelbarrow full of water cans up his hill every day even htough he's in his seventies. i suspect that if he could afford it he'd modernise his life in an instant. you're lucky - you have choice and you're lamenting progress from the fortunate position of having benefited from it. you want olden times, go to a medieval theme park. if not, jump into your a/c car, drive to your nearest hipermercado, go back home, switch on your tv etcetc...
Aug 7th, 2009, 08:07 AM
#33
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hold it, hold it....I´m just missing the way we were but not on the material side, but on the personal one, or as a country, if you wish. Spain used to be fun, used to be more anarchic, used to be an "unspoilt" country in many aspects, used to be..how can I put it not being a native English speaker...I think it used to be a less regulated country where the joy of life was more important than other things. In any case, it´s not important, things are the way they are and yes, I´m a privileged human being compared to many.
Aug 7th, 2009, 08:28 AM
#34
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Mikelg,
I liked it better before too, but prosperity comes with cost everywhere. Efficiency and production go hand in hand with a bland combination toward uniformity of both business and people. I might get shotdown to say this, but Spanairds seem to lost some of their identity in the EU, and now are now become what the EU has molded them to be.
I liked it better before too, but prosperity comes with cost everywhere. Efficiency and production go hand in hand with a bland combination toward uniformity of both business and people. I might get shotdown to say this, but Spanairds seem to lost some of their identity in the EU, and now are now become what the EU has molded them to be.
Aug 7th, 2009, 08:38 AM
#35
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I think that most posters simply don't get the point. It's not about being conservative or old-fashioned, but quite the contrary.
I doubt that mikelg wants to live in an old finca with no running water and only a handfull or local products to buy at an old mercado in the next town.
It's more that Europe has turned into Big Nanny, trying to protect its "children" from any bad in the world, so that everyone can lead a happy little standardized life in a CCTV controlled world.
That has little to do with shopping at supermarkets or having A/C in your car.
I doubt that mikelg wants to live in an old finca with no running water and only a handfull or local products to buy at an old mercado in the next town.
It's more that Europe has turned into Big Nanny, trying to protect its "children" from any bad in the world, so that everyone can lead a happy little standardized life in a CCTV controlled world.
That has little to do with shopping at supermarkets or having A/C in your car.
Aug 7th, 2009, 09:05 AM
#37
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<i>That has little to do with shopping at supermarkets or having A/C in your car.</i>
On the contrary, it has everything to do with it.
I think, at their core, most people want the same things. They want to put their head down, earn a nice living, do right by their kids, and live the easy life. I find that people are more than willing to trade uniqueness for prosperity. Spain was never going to achieve prosperity while remaining what they were.
That anarchy that Mikelg laments losing existed, in no small part, because the options available today weren't especially available to many people. That uniqueness was directly the result of a reactionary, inward-looking, protectionist world-view that was completely and utterly incompatible with Spain reaching its full potential. You simply can't be a prosperous and closed economy at the same time. And you can't be an open economy without allowing outside influences in art, fashion, cuisine, literature, film, and more to take hold.
It is a false choice to think that one can embrace the "good" of globalization, while avoiding the "bad". This would be the case, even if it were possible to objectively label any aspects as "bad". You want anarchy? There are plenty of places where globalization hasn't touched. Many are unique. And most would probably gladly trade places with Spain.
As for Europe turning Spain into the Big Nanny... I'm no fan of Brussels, but given Spain's history prior to the EU, I think that the EU must come across as surprisingly hands-off.
On the contrary, it has everything to do with it.
I think, at their core, most people want the same things. They want to put their head down, earn a nice living, do right by their kids, and live the easy life. I find that people are more than willing to trade uniqueness for prosperity. Spain was never going to achieve prosperity while remaining what they were.
That anarchy that Mikelg laments losing existed, in no small part, because the options available today weren't especially available to many people. That uniqueness was directly the result of a reactionary, inward-looking, protectionist world-view that was completely and utterly incompatible with Spain reaching its full potential. You simply can't be a prosperous and closed economy at the same time. And you can't be an open economy without allowing outside influences in art, fashion, cuisine, literature, film, and more to take hold.
It is a false choice to think that one can embrace the "good" of globalization, while avoiding the "bad". This would be the case, even if it were possible to objectively label any aspects as "bad". You want anarchy? There are plenty of places where globalization hasn't touched. Many are unique. And most would probably gladly trade places with Spain.
As for Europe turning Spain into the Big Nanny... I'm no fan of Brussels, but given Spain's history prior to the EU, I think that the EU must come across as surprisingly hands-off.
Aug 7th, 2009, 09:25 AM
#38
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Again, major misunderstanding. It is not that the EU is turning Spain into the Big Nanny, but that the EU is doing that (or trying to) in many fields of life in all Member States. It's not about pre- or post-EU, but a general change towards more "supervision" and the reign of the well-meaning nannies.
Needless to say that this can also mean a change for good in the view of many.
Needless to say that this can also mean a change for good in the view of many.
Aug 7th, 2009, 09:55 AM
#39
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No Cowboy, no misunderstanding. The point is that Spain probably had a more invasive state (particularly when you consider the state/church relationship) for most of the 20th century than it does under the EU.
Indeed, this rush to blame the EU seems a little misplaced. It isn't like most European countries were some sort of libertarian paradise prior to the expansion of the EU's powers. Most of the EU regulations, especially the silly ones, could just as easily been introduced by France or Germany, both of which have traditions of statism that pre-date the EU. Perhaps the Brits have a gripe, but certainly not the French or Germans. To the extent that Spain and Italy have a gripe, it is simply that the possibilities for rampant corruption have been greatly diminished, severely impinging upon their traditional ways of doing business.
Indeed, this rush to blame the EU seems a little misplaced. It isn't like most European countries were some sort of libertarian paradise prior to the expansion of the EU's powers. Most of the EU regulations, especially the silly ones, could just as easily been introduced by France or Germany, both of which have traditions of statism that pre-date the EU. Perhaps the Brits have a gripe, but certainly not the French or Germans. To the extent that Spain and Italy have a gripe, it is simply that the possibilities for rampant corruption have been greatly diminished, severely impinging upon their traditional ways of doing business.
