Airb2b in Paris

Feb 23rd, 2015, 07:57 AM
  #21  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,552
Sojountraveler - No one said there are no legal short term rentals in France. As I stated:

"In cities in France with a population of 200,000 or more and also in the départements that surround Paris apartments can't be rented for less than one year, or 9 months to students, unless it is the owners main residence in which case it can be rented for up to 4 months of the year. There are other ways to get around this (buying an equivalent amount of commercial space and converting it to residential space) but it makes it virtually economically unfeasible."

So if you live in a city/town/village with a population of under 200,000 and aren't in one of the départements adjacent to Paris then you can legally rent short term.

Can you explain what licenses you are talking about
FrenchMystiqueTours is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 08:00 AM
  #22  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,552
Darn, I got cut off before finishing:

Can you explain what licenses you are talking about and what legal document can you reference to verify this? Other than what Sarastro has mentioned (which can't be accurately verified as shown by manouche) as far as I am aware there is no license for short term rentals and you are either in compliance with the law or you are not.
FrenchMystiqueTours is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 09:52 AM
  #23  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 428
I think something has been lost in translation - or maybe wishful thinking.

Since it was raining and I didn't have anything better to do today, I spent a couple of hours poring through the entire DDEES website - multiple pages of reports on studies (which were commissioned by the City of Paris) on short-term rentals (people needing housing while looking for employment or during a work assignment, families in transition during a divorce, owners having work done on their property that prohibits their moving in until that's finished, tourists renting for a period of one month or less).

The information did include the steps that must be taken before someone may apply for authorization to rent a furnished apartment for a short term - less than 9 months to a student or 1 year, otherwise. They include, but are not limited to:
* all the residents in the building must agree to change their personal tax status from residential to the much higher commercial level
* the person(s) wishing to rent short-term must construct or provide an existing lodging of equal size to the rental property somewhere in Paris (to replace the rental that is "lost" to the general public)
* the rental income and a room tax (set by the City) must be collected and declared to the proper tax authorities
* the co-op board must vote to allow short-term rentals in the building.

There was an explanation of the steps the Mayor's Task Force follows in finding and investigating vacation rentals:
* searches are conducted following complaints by other residents in the building and/or neighborhood. Investigations begin via an internet search of the property, then are followed by a physical investigation.
* the Task Force does have the authority to enter the rental premises, with or without the knowledge or presence of the owner, his representative, or the tenants. The inspectors may question the building's gardiennes, neighbors, as well as anyone staying in the apartment.
* when enough evidence is compiled and submitted to the City, any and all sanctions and fines will be levied against the owner. At this time, no further rentals may be honored and the property listings must be removed from the websites. An owner may appeal the sanction, but will not be permitted to rent during the appeal.
* There was a list of all vacation rental companies having an internet presence - I believe there were about 300 of them, many listing multiple properties.

There is no guarantee that authorization will be granted by the City of Paris, even if someone jumps through all the hoops and does exactly what is requested. It appears to be very difficult, if not impossible, to comply with all the regulations. The co-op board has the final authority, since the quality of life of the building's residents is viewed as more important than the City's housing shortage.

There is no "short-term rental license" - as there is for official Bed and Breakfasts, gites, hotels or other lodgings that are registered by the City and inspected on a yearly basis. I did not find a mention of any list.

There is apparently some confusion over short-term rentals which advertise on the Official Paris Tourist Bureau website. Though this would seem to imply that these listings are approved by the City, it is important to realize that this is simply paid advertising, which is available to anyone who has the means to pay for it. It is misleading, but this tactic is common in many cities, not just Paris.
manouche is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 10:00 AM
  #24  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 428
I forgot one more thing -
Ground floor apartments - and sometimes certain upper floors - which are already considered commercial spaces are usually approved by the City as legal short-term rentals - though the owners must still apply for a "change of use order".
These spaces were used for law offices, doctor's offices, other commercial ventures. However, the rule about the co-op approving short-term rentals still applies.
The report stated that there are an estimated 20,000 short-term rentals listed on the internet. Only an estimated 2% of these are considered legal rentals.
manouche is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 11:37 AM
  #25  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,931
manouche - what you have found is basically what I have found, with exceptions in italics as follows:

There are certain arrondissements, such as the 4th, 5th, and 6th, which require the person(s) wishing to rent short-term must construct or provide an existing lodging of double the size to the rental property in the same arrondissement as is found the short term rental.

I believe that these more stringent requirements were passed by the legislature late last year.

What this means, as I review the situation, is that the vacation apartment business in Paris, or in any city in France with more than 200,000 inhabitants, is basically over or soon will be. Available vacation apartments will diminish as more and more owners either convert short term properties to leased properties of at least 1 year duration or they sell their apartments.

What will remain to those interested in renting apartments for their visits to Pairs will be the few legally sanctioned apartments, apartment/hotels such as Citadine or Adagio, or apartments offered by their primary residents for a period not to exceed 4 months per year.

There is a big change underway in the short term rental market in Paris.
Sarastro is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 01:47 PM
  #26  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 16,614
norahe; We will be in Paris in July and I have no problem using Airb&b to secure our rental for 4 nights.

When you consider the millions of people who use this company, there is always a few problems.

But it does seem like a hotel would be a better option for you.

My wife and I are taking my sister, her friend, my GD and her boyfriend to Paris and needed 3 bedrooms.

This was the best option for us.
iris1745 is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 01:55 PM
  #27  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 64,236
>> We will be in Paris in July and I have no problem using Airb&b to secure our rental for 4 nights.

When you consider the millions of people who use this company, there is always a few problems.<<

iris: The thing is the rules are now being enforced.. Many (MANY) Fodorites have successfully rented apartments in Paris (I've rented 5 or 6) . . . but them's then, this is now . . . it is a different situation today.
janisj is online now  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 02:16 PM
  #28  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 16,614
How many have been displaced?

How many have been displaced in Paris? That's what people need to know, otherwise

It's a scare tactic. IMO.

Airb&b has had a number of problems in different cities and I believe they are trying to adjust to current regulations.
iris1745 is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 02:23 PM
  #29  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 64,236
>>Airb&b has had a number of problems in different cities and I believe they are trying to adjust to current regulations.<<

The situation in Paris isn't anything airbnb can 'adjust' to really . . . It is like NYC. essentially most private short term rentals are simply illegal.
janisj is online now  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 02:28 PM
  #30  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 16,614
Fine; we are going.

I still want to know how many people renting with these agencies, be it VBRO, Airb&nb, Paris Perfect and many others have been displaced when they do short term rentals.

Just asking!
iris1745 is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 02:40 PM
  #31  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,051
'the person(s) wishing to rent short-term must construct or provide an existing lodging of equal size to the rental property somewhere in Paris (to replace the rental that is "lost" to the general public)'

The point about Airbnb is that it ISN'T a letting agency for people with property portfolios - it is about people letting out their own home THAT THEY LIVE IN FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME on an occasional basis - so no property has been 'lost' to the rental market and it doesn't need replacing.

It's quite clear that regulations designed to ensure private property rentals as main homes or businesses are let legally are being erroneously applied here. I would bet Paris (and probably many other countries) will soon come up with similar legislation to London which recognises the difference between someone letting to the residential or year round holiday market vs occasional use of an owner-occupied residence.
RM67 is offline  
Feb 23rd, 2015, 05:27 PM
  #32  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,552
As I mentioned, it is legal to rent out your residence for up to 4 months a year if it is your main residence (not a second residence), even in Paris (which is a city with a population of over 200,000). If you don't live in a city with a population of over 200,000 or in the départements that are adjacent to Paris then these rules don't apply and you are free to rent for whatever length of time you wish.

The basic idea behind AirBnB is for people who live a residence (being their primary residence) to rent it out, which actually is allowed even in Paris (following the 4 months out of a year rule) but some people on AirBnB are listing multiple units, which means they are investors rather than home owners.

BTW - Thanks to Sarastro and manouche who have gone way above and beyond the call of duty to diligently research the situation and provide relevant info on just about every aspect of the legalities of short term rentals in France.
FrenchMystiqueTours is offline  
Feb 24th, 2015, 12:06 AM
  #33  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 428
Renting from AirBnB in Paris is like renting from Craig's List.

The majority of people living in Paris full-time would not allow strangers in their residence. Imagine what it would take to secure your valuables, paperwork, make room for someone's belongings in an already-overcrowded closet and apartment. Many years ago in the US, I rented my home through VRBO - never again. I can't fathom trying to do this in Paris.

When you see listings featuring pristine apartments, with no evidence that someone actually lives there - this is a guarantee that this is an illegal short-term rental masquerading as a "real" apartment. Of course, people will believe that fantasy - especially if they can save money.

The majority of people listing on AirBnB are tenants who are trying to make a fast buck. The majority of long-term leases forbid sub-leasing the property. The problem arises when the owner discovers the tenant is sub-leasing. The tenant may be threatened with eviction, so the rental will be cancelled, often at the last minute. You'll get your money back from AirBnB, but will have to find another place to stay without anyone's help.
manouche is offline  
Feb 25th, 2015, 07:55 AM
  #34  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 660
FrenchMystique, any gite found here is legal:
http://en.gites-de-france.com/list.h...ence&lnoident=

Manouche wrote, "There is no "short-term rental license" - as there is for official Bed and Breakfasts, gites, hotels or other lodgings that are registered by the City and inspected on a yearly basis. I did not find a mention of any list."

That is contradictory manouche. A 'gite' IS a short-term rental and is licensed. That's the point, a list of licensed GITES exist. The list of gites is THE list of legal short-term rentals.

Iris1745, let's tell it like it is. Have you determined if the apartment you plan to rent is a legal rental or not? If not, what are you then saying? That you don't care if it is legal or not, as long as you get away with it? Stand up and say outright that your selfish interests outweigh any moral responsibility for aiding and abetting illegal activity.

RM67, how could you possibly conclude, "The point about Airbnb is that it ISN'T a letting agency for people with property portfolios - it is about people letting out their own home THAT THEY LIVE IN FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME on an occasional basis - so no property has been 'lost' to the rental market and it doesn't need replacing."

Where is the evidence to support that statement? The evidence overwhelmingly supports the opposite. While only 6% of NYC listers are multiple listers, they account for 37% of all revenue. While some listers do only list a single property for a place 'they live in for the majority of the time', there are also many single property listers who do not live in the property at all and rent it out as many nights per year as they can. What's more, most of those aren't even owners of the property. They are renting the property on a yearly lease and then sub-renting it by the night! An exploiter with just one property is no better than the exploiter with 272 properties listed.

The real 'point' about Airbnb is that they KNOWINGLY list these properties and do not want to remove them. They make money by listing and collecting their percentage, not by doing what is right.

Let's be honest. People who rent the apartment for their vacation are interested on only one thing. Money. That is what is driving it all. Sadly, we live today in a society where selfishness outweighs morality.

It is one thing to not know about a situation and therefore unknowingly contribute to something that is wrong. It is another thing to be told about it and then try to find a way to justify selfish behaviour. There is a term for that, it's called 'situational morality'. People have no problem convincing themselves that they are doing nothing wrong if the outcome is in their favour. Screw everyboby else.
Sojourntraveller is offline  
Feb 25th, 2015, 08:20 AM
  #35  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,659
-FrenchMystique, any gite found here is legal:
http://en.gites-de-france.com/list.h...ence&lnoident= -

For sure? Have you stayed in one of these gites in Paris? Some nice looking places there.
rialtogrl is offline  
Feb 25th, 2015, 08:39 AM
  #36  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,435
bookmarking.
dwdvagamundo is offline  
Feb 25th, 2015, 09:45 AM
  #37  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 64,236
>>Let's be honest. People who rent the apartment for their vacation are interested on only one thing. Money.<<

So untrue to be laughable. And apartment might cost less . . . or might cost more. But a flat has many advantages regardless of cost -- will generally have much more space, a kitchen/ette, washer dryer, etc. I've rented many apartments when I could have got a hotel room for less.
janisj is online now  
Feb 25th, 2015, 03:43 PM
  #38  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 16,614
Interesting comments and for one of the most disrespectful people on this thread, I know the answer to your first question.

B
iris1745 is offline  
Feb 25th, 2015, 03:49 PM
  #39  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 16,614
But then you go on a rant and I now have no inclination to answer the question.

I also used Airb&b to find a villa in Nice.

www.niceholidayvilla.com

P.S. I feel so sorry for you and your attitude.

Learn a lesson from janisj, direst, pointed, but attempting to help.

ST; You have a good day.
iris1745 is offline  
Feb 25th, 2015, 05:48 PM
  #40  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,957
Back to the OP - I will second Sarastro and suggest you look at the 'Citadines' hotel chain whihch offers legal studios in a 'hotel' context in various locations in Paris for short stays, including stays of only 2 days, starting at around € 130. The apartments are generally studios with the odd 1 bedroom (the 1BR usually can sleep more than 2 people.) The kitchens are very compact, but will work for light meals.

There is breakfast offered on site for a small extra fee, and usually some kind of laundry area.

Because this is a reputable commercial chain, you can be sure of reasonable quality (and safety) standards. Also, again because it is in a 'hotel' context you will find contacting the place easy, plus you can arrive and drop bags virtually any time.

I am grateful to the other posters for their spirited debate about Airbnb, I learned quite a bit. Including why it is called airbnb (I had originally thought somehow it offered airfare in conjunction with a Bnb !!)
Sue_xx_yy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy -

FODOR'S VIDEO

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:18 PM.