SirRocko711

Aloha. A couple of friends and I are planning a backpacking trip in lovely Europe (I haven't been outside the US yet, unless Tijuana counts) this summer, and I was wondering if anyone could give me feedback on our general itinerary-thing. Whether there's a town nearby a place we're visting that we must see, if the stays in the cities should be longer/shorter, etc. We were thinking of getting the 15 day Eurail Flexi pass, and maybe a swiss card to help with the $ for mountain trains there. We're hoping to keep the overall cost down to $3,500 if possible, airfares included. Here's the basic, if rather long outline (with random questions mixed in):

-Fly from LAX to Berlin
-4 days in Berlin
-Overnight train to Munich
-Munich>Fussen train, and spend the day at Neuschwanstein & Fussen. Then take a train from Munich>Salzburg
-3 days in Salzburg, with a day trip to Hallstatt
-Train to Vienna, 4 days there
-Overnight train to Zurich
-A half day in Zurich, then a train to Geneva. 2nd half of the day in Geneva, then an overnight train to Venice
-3 days in Venice
-2 days in Florence
-A stop in Pisa enroute to Rome
-4 days in Rome
-Overnight train to Luzern
-Half day in Luzern, then onwards to Lauterbrunnen
-2 days, 3 nights in Lauterbrunnen. Is the Jungfraujoch worth the splurge for its ticket?
-Train to Luxembourg, half day stop in Bern
-1 day, 2 nights in Luxembourg
-Quick stop in Cologne for the cathedral, 4ish hours in Dusseldorf, then on to Brussels
-3 days in Brussels, with a day trip to Antwerp
-Train to Paris, then an immediate overnight train to Nice
-Day trip from Nice to Avignon
-Day trip from Nice to Grasse & Monte Carlo
-Day trip to St Tropez (by bus or train?)
-1 day in actual Nice
-Overnight train back to Paris
-Day trip from Paris to either Rouen or Dijon
-4.5 days devoted to Paris, then a train to Amsterdam
-4 days in Amsterdam, including a daytrip to Gouda
-Back to Berlin for our return flight

Also, we were debating whether to have Lauterbrunnen or Zermatt be our main Switzerland stay. Zermatt has the friggin Matterhorn, but Lauterbrunnen seems cozier, prettier, and more cultural,and perhaps easier to get to. (beautiful as it may be, the 8hr Glacier Express ride sounds too... long...)

Anyways, I realize that city list was rather epic, but does anything seem wrong with it? too crammed? Thanks for any advice, tis greatly appreciated!

SirRocko711

oh, one other thing... one of the friends going on the trip is still going to be a minor (17), will that be an issue as far as hosteling goes?

Jubes2681

I can really only help with the Italy part of your itinerary...

Venice for 3 days might be a bit long, unless you plan on doing a lot (and I mean a LOT) of shopping. Venice can easily be done in 2 days - see St. Mark's, Murano island, tour the Doge's Palace and generally walk around the city. It's a fun place and easy to get lost in. I would think 3 days might be just a little long.

Same with Rome. 3 days for Rome would be plenty, I think. Unless you want to see every museum they have, then yeah 4 days would be good. You can see St Peter's, the Sistine Chapel, the Colloseum, Pantheon, Spanish Steps, Trevi fountain and a few more places in 3 days easily. The Pantheon, Spanish Steps and Trevi fountain are extremely close to one another - you can do all three in an hour or so. The Colloseum is close to those three, as well, so you could do all four in one day. St Peters and the Sistine Chapel can be done in one day as they are next to each other. Then you'd have another day to visit any other museums/churches/sites.

Stopping in Pisa is a good idea - I think I stayed in Pisa for about 2 hours when I went. It's an easy stop and definitely worth a visit.

Florence in 2 days might be tight - I would recommend taking a day from Venice or Rome and giving it to Florence. So then you would have 3 days/Italian city or so, depending if you cut out a Venice day. You can hit the major churches (there are about 4 that are worth a visit besides the Duomo) - I would spread them out so you don't get "churched out" in Italy, as happens easily. I would skip the Bargello - it's overrated, unless you are really interested in scupltures. The Uffizi is a pain to go to but it has some nice art - there's always a long line unless you get there around 730am. The Duomo museum and the Academia are definitely worth a visit, though. Also, there are some great bars in Florence, if that's something you're interested in.

Also, you seem to skip Munich, except as a point of transfer. Munich is definitely worth a night's stay. The Hauffbrau house is a fun place to visit at night, if you are interested in having a liter of beer and some good German sausages.

As for the age (17), it shouldn't be a problem for the hostels. I've seen young teenagers staying in them in Switzerland. I would recommend you get an international student ID. There are some good discounts for people looking to do things on the cheaper side. Here's the webpage: http://www.istc.org/sisp/index.htm

RufusTFirefly

There's plenty to do in Venice for 4 or 5 days without doing any shopping. Your only problem with 3 days will be to figure out what to leave out of your sightseeing.

We spent 4-1/2 days on our first trip to Venice and didn't even have time to visit the Accademia and Guggenheim museums or any of the other lagoon islands. And we are not shoppers.

RufusTFirefly

Oh, and lonelyplanet.com and its Thorn Tree Forum target backpackers.

tattoojunky

One bit of advice that I can pass along is to spend the extra cash to get a first class eurorail pass. The first class cars are always less crowded, so if you are backpacking with a group you have a much better chance of finding an empty compartment to hold all of your party. My first time backpacking Europe I didn't know that little tidbit, and my friends and I were split up more often than not on the trains just so we could have seats. Once or twice we actually ended up getting off of the train because all of the second class compartments were full. I rectified that situation on the next backpacking trip by getting the first class eurorail pass ---- big difference. Two extra perks that go along with the first class pass are: better class of people are in first class (never had anyone try to pickpocket or steal luggage while we were sleeping in first class -- can't say the same for second class) and the second thing is that unlike the second class pass, the first class pass can be used in either first or second class (if first class fills up,as unlikely as that is, you still have the option of taking a second class seat, or if you make friends in your travels and choose to keep each other company you can sit together regardless of which pass they have).

LoveItaly

Hello SirRocko, you or someone might want to check out the legal requirements for the 17 year old friend of yours regarding travelling from the US to Europe without a parent(s) . Perhaps start with asking the airline you will be using. And go on our government website. There are rules and regulations for minors, which anyone under the age of 18 is considered to be. Have a wonderful trip.

SirRocko711

Thanks for all the tips! We'll chop a day off Venice and give it to Florence, methinks, depending on how the sightseeing list turns out. Reducing Rome though... ack, dunno about that.

We'd also rather spend time in Munich, but to spend the night there would use up a nonexistant 16th day on the train pass, though I suppose we could just buy a seperate ticket if it's not much. If not, oh well.

That 1st class pass is $200 more, but I'll bring it up to the group. Sounds like it would be worth it.

The legal issues for the 17 year old friend shouldn't be too bad, after doing some research. We're not sure which airline we'll be using yet, but as far as government regulations go it doesn't seem to be much more than needing official permission documents signed by both parents, which will have to be presented each time the passport is checked, or somesuch. The general idea being to make sure we're not trying to kidnap him. The really strict legal stuff only seems to be for 14 and under.

That's all for now I guess. Thanks again!

suze

I would research seriously 9as mentioned above) on The Lonely Planet's website bulletin board called The Thorn Tree. While there are loads of experienced travelers here on Fodors many or most don't have current backpacking and hosteling experience.

For instance, a decision like 1st or 2nd class rail passes, I would think the general opinions on TT might be more in line with your own age, finances, needs. www.lonelyplanet.com

StCirq

<<We're hoping to keep the overall cost down to $3,500 if possible, airfares included>>

That's for each of you, right? Even so, let's say airefare is going to be around $700 (and it's probably going to be more in summer, from LAX) - that leaves you $2800. That's only $400 per week, or just a little over $57.00 per day. Have you thought about how you're going to manage that?

Don't mean to be a downer, but now might be the time to do a detailed budget and/or figure out a way to make some extra money between now and summer.

It sounds like a great trip, though!

Edward2005

The most important change you need to make is to alter your plane ticket plans. You need an open-jaws ticket (different arrival and departure cities) for this itinerary to avoid a lot of time-consuming backtracking. I suggest flying into Berlin as planned and then out of Nice. This will free up a lot of itinerary time. Seriously, do this. If you don't I will hunt you down and take your passport.

On other ideas, I'm puzzled why you would go from Vienna to Zurich to Geneva to Venice. Scratch Zurich and Geneva entirely and spend the extra time in either Vienna or Venice. There's probably an overnight train from Vienna to Venice.

I would stay in Lauterbrunnen instead of Zermatt. More to do especially if the weather is poor and a wider array of cheap accomodations. Jungfraujoch is only worth it if the weather is perfect (and even then I wasn't sold on it; I would have enjoyed a good hike more).

You probably will not be in Switzerland long enough to make any kind of Swiss rail pass economical. Just suck it up and pay point-to-point prices. A half-fare card might possibly save you some money, but I'm doubting it.

With airfare, I'm not sure you can do this trip for $3500 unless you stay in hostels for a good chunk of it. Check out the "Let's Go" guidebook series for a good listing of hostels in each town. My all-time favorite hostel is near Lauterbrunnen in Gimmelwald. It's called the Mountain Hostel and has better views than any 5-star hotel in the world. And its only $16 a night.

Edward2005

Another thought on your budget. Figuring that your plane ticket+ Eurail pass will cost $1500, that leaves $2000 for 49 days in Europe. That's $40 a day. Even a hostel will cost you $20 a day, leaving $20 for food and sightseeing.

You can't do this trip for $3500 unless you're getting free airfare or something. Even if you're a miser, you'll end up spending $100 a day. You should rethink either the length of your trip or how much you are willing to spend.

LLindaC

Listen to Edward. Skip Zurich and Switzerland. Gimmelwald is awesome. In fact, the small towns and villages are what Switzerland is all about, and you will save money that way.

starsgoblue

Edward is right that $40 a day would be a tight budget to stick to, but there's no way that you have to spend at least $100 a day....thats not a backpackers budget!

suze

Three things that jump out at me:

1. Fly open-jaw rather than having to return all the way to Berlin. This ticket should not cost much (if any) more money and will be way more convenient.

2. Remeber that $40USD per day budget is only 33 euro (which I believe is too low to be reasonable).

3. Rail passes are basically a math problem, make sure you need one at all, and purchase the best value for your itinerary if you do.

Edward2005

starsgoblue, I think you're right in that a barebones plan can still be done under $100. Figure $20 for a bed at a hostel, $25 for food, $15 for sightseeing, and $15 for miscellaneous and we get $75 a day. $75 times 49 days yields $3675, plus air and rail pass.

SirRocko711

ok, update:

- LonelyPlanet shall be my next stop. I think I skimmed it before, but it looked like none of the threads where getting replies. I think I was just looking on the wrong board though.

- We're changing our plans to do that open-jaw thing, departing from either Paris or Amsterdam. The only reason for Amsterdam would be that we want to "save the best for last," and Amsterdam seemed like the highlight. Will probably wind up being Pars though. Flying out of Nice is a bit pricier, sadly.

- The Zurich/Geneva schtick is because we're trying to maximize the overnight trains to save on accommodations, and there isnt one between Vienna and Venice. Maybe one of the two cities will just be reduced to a simple transfer, to get the most out of the other.

- Yeah, $3,500 is probably unrealistic, but whatever. We're each planning on having $4,500-5,000ish saved up for the trip by the time it comes along anyway (3,500 is just the figure we're aiming for) Though... at least one of the friends will be getting "free" airfare via frequent flyer miles. Not me though, drat.

SirRocko711

Oh, and we are in fact planning on staying in hostels virtually the entire time, and cooking our own food wherever possible (a few "splurges" on Italian pizza, Nice ice cream, etc aside, hee), so that should help save money.

Ashlynn

As a backpacker myself, always travelling on a tight budget, here are some things that I would suggest:

- I would not pay the extra money for a first class Eurail pass. I have taken trains throughtout Western Europe, including several night trains, and I have found them to be more than adequate. I am a young female solo traveller and have never had any problems with security on trains.

- I always stay in hostels, not only because it is the cheapest option, but also because it enable you to meet so many great people from all over the world. I have stayed in some great hostels and others I would rather forget. All in all, I really enjoy staying in hostels, but I am a no frills kind of girl. Check out www.hostelworld.com or www.hostelz.com for lists of hostels and reviews. Some hostels that I can recommend in the cities that you will be visting are Yoho Youth Hostel in Salzburg, Ruthensteiner Hostel in Vienna, Archi Rossi in Florence, Hostal Ottaviano in Rome. It has been awhile since I stayed in a few of these hostels so you might want to look for some current reviews.

- I also dont understand your trip to Zurich and then Geneva. I did a quick check and found that there are night trains running from Vienna to Venice. Zurich and Geneva are almost 3 hours a part by train, so it would not leave you much time to see much of either city. And since you are planning on spending time in Switzerland later on in your trip, I would eliminate these two cities. I would spend my time in Lauterbrunnen, it is a beautiful area to explore.

-In Nice, you should take the train to Villefranche sur Mer on the way to or from Monte Carlo. There is a gorgeous walking path along the Mediterranean. Or get off the train at Cap d'Ail and walk along the coast to Monaco.

- I would budget for a minimum of 50 dollars a day. That is usually what I get by on, some days spending more and others less. One of the costs that I find really adds up quickly is admission, so remember to keep that in mind.

My style of travelling is not for everyone, but I love it and wouldn't want to do it any other way at this point in my life. If you have any other questions I can try to help you out. Sounds like you are planning a great trip.

jaclynpoulson

I backpacked for 9 weeks a couple years ago, and while your budget might be tight - it is doable. Also, I agree with the previous poster that you really don't need the first class railpass. Have a great time!