AARP Article on Smart Cards with Chips in Europe - reason for concern?
Aug 10th, 2007, 04:39 AM
#41
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..their reasons for this policy I noted above....
Getting your credit card compromised is a bit disconcerting but it is easy to handle...a phone call or two and a letter will quickly lead to all the fraudulent charges be taken off your credit card account.
Identity theft is another story. The goal of identity thieves is to gain as much information about you as possible to get your credit report and get even more information including such things as changing your addresses on your credit card accounts so you don't know what's happening until a couple of years down the line when the credit company comes knocking.
Having said that, one of the ways identity thieves steal information is through wretched human beings who serve as clerks in the most upscale of establishments. They have devised means of stealing credit card numbers with little readers that take the informatin off the card...they then memorize the silly 3 digit ccv on thesignature panel. If in addition, they now find out your driver's license number and date of birth, well you can be in trouble. While I'm not sahying this happens regularly, it can happen. That is why I refuse to show additional id when using a credit card.
Most credit card fraud in this day and age is not being done in the local grocery....it's being done when a number an dinformation is stolen over the internet or in merchants thousands of miles away from home. Even chip and pin cards must make provisions for their use outside countries which have chip and pin so a merchant who steals the number can transmit the number to the vermin running these credit card rings and the card can be used over the net or a clone produced for use in a "backward" country which doesn't use chip and pin (I can think of a very large one).
I have nothing against going with chip and pin and do think it should be standardized throughout the world (the eu is attempting to standardize it within its 27 member states) but as noted, it will be a long time, if ever, before this technology reaches the United States.
Getting your credit card compromised is a bit disconcerting but it is easy to handle...a phone call or two and a letter will quickly lead to all the fraudulent charges be taken off your credit card account.
Identity theft is another story. The goal of identity thieves is to gain as much information about you as possible to get your credit report and get even more information including such things as changing your addresses on your credit card accounts so you don't know what's happening until a couple of years down the line when the credit company comes knocking.
Having said that, one of the ways identity thieves steal information is through wretched human beings who serve as clerks in the most upscale of establishments. They have devised means of stealing credit card numbers with little readers that take the informatin off the card...they then memorize the silly 3 digit ccv on thesignature panel. If in addition, they now find out your driver's license number and date of birth, well you can be in trouble. While I'm not sahying this happens regularly, it can happen. That is why I refuse to show additional id when using a credit card.
Most credit card fraud in this day and age is not being done in the local grocery....it's being done when a number an dinformation is stolen over the internet or in merchants thousands of miles away from home. Even chip and pin cards must make provisions for their use outside countries which have chip and pin so a merchant who steals the number can transmit the number to the vermin running these credit card rings and the card can be used over the net or a clone produced for use in a "backward" country which doesn't use chip and pin (I can think of a very large one).
I have nothing against going with chip and pin and do think it should be standardized throughout the world (the eu is attempting to standardize it within its 27 member states) but as noted, it will be a long time, if ever, before this technology reaches the United States.
Aug 10th, 2007, 04:45 AM
#42
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Precisely, Ira.
I agree about the minimum charge rules. You absolutely do have to accept a charge for a penny if a CC is presented for payment & I will report any in our area who try to put a minimum charge on their terms of sale. However, I stand by requesting ID as does the owner of our company who is an attorney.
I'm also appalled at the number of people who do not sign their credit cards. Whenever mine is reissued the card has a warning to sign the card immediately.
I agree about the minimum charge rules. You absolutely do have to accept a charge for a penny if a CC is presented for payment & I will report any in our area who try to put a minimum charge on their terms of sale. However, I stand by requesting ID as does the owner of our company who is an attorney.
I'm also appalled at the number of people who do not sign their credit cards. Whenever mine is reissued the card has a warning to sign the card immediately.
Aug 10th, 2007, 04:46 AM
#43
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"unenlightened countries" - perhaps, xyx, if you looked into the use of PIN chip cards vs signature cards, the reason for asking for ID and the cost to the merchant for each cc use and therefore minimum requirements you would revise your evaluation of who is actually "unenlightened" in this matter.
Merchants are charged a "per use" cc charge plus a % and (sometimes) a charge by their bank for depositing the money each time directly into the bank. A small charged purchase can render a sale unprofitable. Not your worry, I realize, but important for a small margin business.
Merchants are charged a "per use" cc charge plus a % and (sometimes) a charge by their bank for depositing the money each time directly into the bank. A small charged purchase can render a sale unprofitable. Not your worry, I realize, but important for a small margin business.
Aug 10th, 2007, 04:59 AM
#44
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My cc merchant agreement does not have a per use charge..only a % charge so it's whatever the percentage is whether it's a $500 charge or a charge for $1.23....
As far as the id is concerned, I made my point above. Again, the vast majority of credit card fraud is now done via the internet. Besides, to the best of my knowledge, if a valid credit card is presented and the signature matches and the merchant gets authorization, the merchant is protected. Am I correct in that?
Some merchants on the internet have run into trouble with fraudulent charges and be left holding the bill when they accept cards without its being present (which of course is impossible with an internet transaction)....I recently had on my own account a call from my bank that somebody had just charged $8.000 or thereabouts having probably had the number stolen in a restaurant (in many restaurants in the USA, they don't have the little cc machines they have in Europe where they bring the terminal to your table...the waiter disappears with your credit card and you know what can happen while he is away)...what I didn't understand is how they could ship the merchandise to an address different than the card's address...cc companies if truly interested in protecting consumers should make it an iron clad rule that internet merchants may not ship merchandise to any address other than the cardholder's billing address or at least give the cardholder the opportunity to stipulate it.
As far as chip and pin, quite frankly I do think the USA should adopt it but as I n oted I am sure our banks have done studies and have decided that it would cost them more to embrace the technology for the millions of payment cards outstanding in the USA as well as having to change all the pos terminals then the losses for fraud.
But I do respect your right to disagree...but if you were an American merchant and you did any of these no nos I would report you to the credit card company. After all, nobody forced you to sign and accept the merchant's agreement which you should live up to.
As far as the id is concerned, I made my point above. Again, the vast majority of credit card fraud is now done via the internet. Besides, to the best of my knowledge, if a valid credit card is presented and the signature matches and the merchant gets authorization, the merchant is protected. Am I correct in that?
Some merchants on the internet have run into trouble with fraudulent charges and be left holding the bill when they accept cards without its being present (which of course is impossible with an internet transaction)....I recently had on my own account a call from my bank that somebody had just charged $8.000 or thereabouts having probably had the number stolen in a restaurant (in many restaurants in the USA, they don't have the little cc machines they have in Europe where they bring the terminal to your table...the waiter disappears with your credit card and you know what can happen while he is away)...what I didn't understand is how they could ship the merchandise to an address different than the card's address...cc companies if truly interested in protecting consumers should make it an iron clad rule that internet merchants may not ship merchandise to any address other than the cardholder's billing address or at least give the cardholder the opportunity to stipulate it.
As far as chip and pin, quite frankly I do think the USA should adopt it but as I n oted I am sure our banks have done studies and have decided that it would cost them more to embrace the technology for the millions of payment cards outstanding in the USA as well as having to change all the pos terminals then the losses for fraud.
But I do respect your right to disagree...but if you were an American merchant and you did any of these no nos I would report you to the credit card company. After all, nobody forced you to sign and accept the merchant's agreement which you should live up to.
Aug 10th, 2007, 05:10 AM
#45
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<i>"Besides, to the best of my knowledge, if a valid credit card is presented and the signature matches and the merchant gets authorization, the merchant is protected. Am I correct in that?"</i>
If a valid cc is NOT signed by the authorized cc holder which, as I said above is getting to be the majority of cc's we see in my stores, what is to prevent a thief who gets hold of that cc, signing it & using it?
Naturally then the signatures would match BUT a photo id would prevent that charge from being made.
If a valid cc is NOT signed by the authorized cc holder which, as I said above is getting to be the majority of cc's we see in my stores, what is to prevent a thief who gets hold of that cc, signing it & using it?
Naturally then the signatures would match BUT a photo id would prevent that charge from being made.
Aug 10th, 2007, 05:53 AM
#46
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I did have repeated problems using my Capital One card in Europe during my recent trip to Vienna and Budapest. It would inexplicably work in some swipe machines and not in others. I think this does have something to do with the smart chip and/or the age of the swipe machine being used.
I wish the US credit card companies would get with it and give us the cards with the smart chips.
I wish the US credit card companies would get with it and give us the cards with the smart chips.
Aug 10th, 2007, 06:07 AM
#47
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>what is to prevent a thief who gets hold of that cc, signing it & using it?
I write "SEE IDENTIFICATION" in the box for signature.
I think that my signature is more easily copied than my 12 digit driver's license number.
Besides, hardly anyone asks to see my ID anyway, nor do they check signatures. Which is why the man who mugged my mother was able to use her CC.
I write "SEE IDENTIFICATION" in the box for signature.
I think that my signature is more easily copied than my 12 digit driver's license number.
Besides, hardly anyone asks to see my ID anyway, nor do they check signatures. Which is why the man who mugged my mother was able to use her CC.
Aug 10th, 2007, 06:53 AM
#48
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My partner and I have picture Citibank credit cards. On this past trip (with his Alzheimer's) I carry both cards and often use his card and sign it with his name. I can't tell you how many people look at the picture and then look at me and OK it. Do they really not see that I'm not the one in the picture? Do they care?
I remember the 60 Minutes where they would have a big black guy use a picture ID for Cho Mi Low, clearly not him. Many clerks would look at it, look at him and then OK. What's the point of ID????
I remember the 60 Minutes where they would have a big black guy use a picture ID for Cho Mi Low, clearly not him. Many clerks would look at it, look at him and then OK. What's the point of ID????
Aug 10th, 2007, 07:51 AM
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>Many clerks would look at it, look at him and then OK. What's the point of ID????
By the same token what's the point of matching signatures?
If the clerks don't care, the banks have problems.
By the same token what's the point of matching signatures?
If the clerks don't care, the banks have problems.
Aug 10th, 2007, 08:07 AM
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Actually Ira..in the USA, they rarely if ever look at signatures on credit cards anymore.
In fast food places, in many cases, you are not even asked to sign the receipt. At self service gas stations, you swipe the card and are not ask for ID (many pumps do ask for a US zip code and foreigners are told to enter 00000 or see the clerk)..in most retail outlets in the USA today, they use swipe terminals (most groceries, drug stores, 7-11's), I swipe the card, put it in my wallet and 99% of the time no request for id or any checking of the signature.
Only in department stores do you hand the credit card to a clerk and guess what, it was in many of the top department stores in the world that crooked crooks (no pun intended) working as salesclerks used these little card readers to steal numbers (in one instant I believe it was at Lord & Taylor that an eagle eyed Greek tourist saw a clerk doing just that, alerted store security and the clerk was arrested with the little device with dozens of credit card numbers all ready to give to the vermin running these credit card rings in Eastern Europe or Nigeria)...in restaurants in the USA the normal procedure is to hand the credit card to the waiter when the bill is presented and the waiter disapears to some back room and returns with the receipt ready for you to sign (with a space for the tip of course)...is your signature checked there?
Contrast that with my trips to the UK where on every transaction the clerk checks the signature. In Paris, in almost every restaurant, when l'addition arrives and you present your credit card, they bring the little terminal to you (the same terminal they use for locals)..locals insert their cards and punch in their pin (chip and pin),those of us from third world countries such as the USA see them swipe the card right in front of us, they give us the receipt to sign and we get our receipt (usually no room for tips but then again you don't tip in a French restaurant, service compris).....
Again I suppose this is in realization of the fact that the vast majority of credit card fraud in this day and age does not occur over a €85 charge in a restaurant or a $40 charge to fill your gas tank but rather thousands and thousands over the web.
In fast food places, in many cases, you are not even asked to sign the receipt. At self service gas stations, you swipe the card and are not ask for ID (many pumps do ask for a US zip code and foreigners are told to enter 00000 or see the clerk)..in most retail outlets in the USA today, they use swipe terminals (most groceries, drug stores, 7-11's), I swipe the card, put it in my wallet and 99% of the time no request for id or any checking of the signature.
Only in department stores do you hand the credit card to a clerk and guess what, it was in many of the top department stores in the world that crooked crooks (no pun intended) working as salesclerks used these little card readers to steal numbers (in one instant I believe it was at Lord & Taylor that an eagle eyed Greek tourist saw a clerk doing just that, alerted store security and the clerk was arrested with the little device with dozens of credit card numbers all ready to give to the vermin running these credit card rings in Eastern Europe or Nigeria)...in restaurants in the USA the normal procedure is to hand the credit card to the waiter when the bill is presented and the waiter disapears to some back room and returns with the receipt ready for you to sign (with a space for the tip of course)...is your signature checked there?
Contrast that with my trips to the UK where on every transaction the clerk checks the signature. In Paris, in almost every restaurant, when l'addition arrives and you present your credit card, they bring the little terminal to you (the same terminal they use for locals)..locals insert their cards and punch in their pin (chip and pin),those of us from third world countries such as the USA see them swipe the card right in front of us, they give us the receipt to sign and we get our receipt (usually no room for tips but then again you don't tip in a French restaurant, service compris).....
Again I suppose this is in realization of the fact that the vast majority of credit card fraud in this day and age does not occur over a €85 charge in a restaurant or a $40 charge to fill your gas tank but rather thousands and thousands over the web.
Aug 10th, 2007, 08:27 AM
#52
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<<< I write "SEE IDENTIFICATION" in the box for signature.
I think that my signature is more easily copied than my 12 digit driver's license number. >>>
How does your 12 digit driver's license number prove that you are legal user of the credit card? - at best all it'll show is that licence & CC have the same name on them
I think that my signature is more easily copied than my 12 digit driver's license number. >>>
How does your 12 digit driver's license number prove that you are legal user of the credit card? - at best all it'll show is that licence & CC have the same name on them
Aug 10th, 2007, 08:35 AM
#53
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...and of course by showing id you open yourself for the possibility, remote as it might be, for the person to memorize your 12 digit driver's license number and pass that info along to organized identity theft rings.
Again, by itself, fraudulent use of your credit card while I know it can be a small problem if it occurs at a time when you're on a trip (carry 2) or temporarily mean youcan't amass frequent flyer miles on your favorite airline or mean you have to notify those with whom you have automatic payment agreements with a new credit card number, by itself it is not a big problem....all fraudulent charges will be removed and you will be out no money and that will be the end of it.
If your identity is stolen, well then you have a real problem clearing your good name. Anything that enhances the chances of identity theft, even remotely, is something you're better off avoiding.
Again, by itself, fraudulent use of your credit card while I know it can be a small problem if it occurs at a time when you're on a trip (carry 2) or temporarily mean youcan't amass frequent flyer miles on your favorite airline or mean you have to notify those with whom you have automatic payment agreements with a new credit card number, by itself it is not a big problem....all fraudulent charges will be removed and you will be out no money and that will be the end of it.
If your identity is stolen, well then you have a real problem clearing your good name. Anything that enhances the chances of identity theft, even remotely, is something you're better off avoiding.
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