Au contraire, Lani. I think most of the respondents were deadly serious and hardly used the forum, in this situation, as a playground. Mary Beth obviously hit a very serious nerve with a lot of people. And you us injustice to say wee just playing.

Hi Helen, <BR>I hear your concerns about my post.I don't think you are being too vehement.You are just stating what you think,which is fine by me. <BR>I think to discount stereotypes is a cliche,born of the politically correct movement.There is a lot of truth in stereotypes in my opinion. <BR>What I said about gay men is true of the ones I know.I don't knowingly know a lot of gay women,so I can't comment about them in the same way. <BR>I think that if a gay man was dull witted and had no taste,he would be the exception rather than the rule. <BR>It would be great if someone gay responded to say wether they thought that I was wrong. <BR>Gays by nature would have to be more tolerant than the general population.They have experience of being persecuted for their lifestyle.Thank God that it's a lot better than it used to be.Poor Oscar Wilde.It's a scandal that such a brilliant mind should have rotted in Reading gaol. <BR> <BR>As for the troll,well I wonder why you would think that? Mischevious elf is more like it.{smile} <BR>

I thought this was a travel forum??? not the adolescents chat room. <BR>Mary Beth gave you her opinion of a place she visited, whether you agree or not. It's the rest of you self righteous people that have blown this into a cause. Some of you may make use of her information, either to visit the place or stay away. <BR>Some of you tried to take a fair approach, but there were those who were only interested in belittling someone they didn't agree with. One of you said this wasn't the place for her opinions, I disagree, this is a forum of opinions----about travel! It is the rest of you who have made this thread a battle for civil rights. <BR>Mary Beth, thank you for contributing your information, I don't need it , but thank you for trying to be helpful. <BR>Incidentally, I notice that most of the names in this thread, I haven't seen too often. The real people that make this Forum so great and helpful to those of us that need their opinions on travel, have not chosen to participate.

Dear Lani, <BR> <BR>At least, I have to give credit to Mary Beth; she had the guts to express what is in her mind -- allowing others to respond with what is in their mind too. <BR> <BR>[I am unsure though about your own position on the issue raised by MaryBeth, since you did not state whether or not you agreed with her position. So, can you be more emphatic and state what your position is on the issue raised by MaryBeth.] <BR> <BR>It is OK for you to defend MaryBeth that she has the right to speak. What is wrong is your supposition that those who disagreed with MaryBeth are a clique. To quote you: <BR> <BR>"What I find offensive is that you [i.e., Elvira] try to rally the little clique on the Europe Forum to ignore someone. "Why don't we all band together.........?", indeed!" ... Lani: 8/20/1999, 12:03 pm ET. <BR> <BR>To begin with, as Elvira pointed out, your quote of her position is inaccurate. English is not my native tongue, but if you read Elvira's first post and plea more carefully (before making your attack), you will come to the conclusion that all she was worried about is that the issue raised by MaryBeth is very controversial that could lead to acrimonius exchanges -- not appropriate for a travel forum. As you can judge from the current number of postings so far, she was partly correct in her prediction of the outcome. <BR> <BR>Having read a number of Forums (New York Times, Morningstar, etc.), I would characterize that many of those who responded in this [Fodor] forum to MaryBeth's posts were rather civil. Instead, the latest posting of yours I read made the oversimplification: <BR> <BR>"I'm afraid most of you (not all) who have responded to this thread, if in a playground fight, would continue to kick and punch somebody just for the fun of it! Mary-Beth may not be popular because of the opinion she holds, but are you guys any better, trashing her with such relish??? It's not real attractive!" ... Lani: 8/21/1999, 12:02 am ET <BR> <BR>First, I will be very offended if you think I am one of those you characterized in your latest post quoted above. Next, I challenge you [Lani] to name the names of what you call "... most of you (not all) ... trashing her with such relish???". My readings of the other posts suggests otherwise. <BR> <BR>If there were passion in some of the posts, it was partly because MaryBeth committed the same fallacy as the so-called Christian "Moral Majority' [sic]. To quote MaryBeth: <BR> <BR>"I am not at all prejudiced against such people - I just believe that the majority of Americans would not want to spend their vacations feeling embarrassed and uncomfortable." -- MaryBeth: 8/20/1999, 10:06 am ET <BR> <BR>"We live in a rural christian community where most people think the same way as us! I repeat - I am not prejudiced against these people - I feel sorry for them and I don't begrudge them their vacations." -- MaryBeth: 8/20/1999, 10:06 am ET <BR> <BR>"majority of Americans"???? Where is the reliable data or study (as claimed by MaryBeth) implicating that majority of Americans have the same position as MaryBeth on the issue about "these people" who have "certain lifestyles"? If that were true, I would not be surprised that there might have been a "Hitlerian solution" to "these people" who have "certain lifestyles". <BR> <BR>Thus, if there was a number of passionate response therefore, it was not motivated by "trashing her [i.e., MaryBeth with such relish", as you characterized it, but more to counter MaryBeth that the "majority of Americans" she claims is an illusion in her mind. And, even if it were unfortunately true, they want to have their voices heard that they are not part of the "majority". <BR> <BR>neil

<BR>I used to live in more liberal places in the USA but now live in the "Bible belt". When I first moved where I am now, my mind was filled with stereotypes of the South conjured by such generalization such as that of MaryBeth -- "We live in a rural christian community where most people think the same way as us!" [about "these people" who have "certain lifestyles"]. I was surprised therefore that in the same block where I rented a house (before I bought one); there live (in the same house) two middle age guys who I am almost certain belong to "these people" who have "certain lifestyles". And yet, they were accepted by this Christian community in the South -- where there were many families with young children, some with "impressionable teenage sons" (or daughters). <BR> <BR>If I stayed longer in the same block, it was more because of the nostalgia of sense of community I felt among these Christian loving Americans. This "common folks" neighborhood reminded me of my birthplace where the neighborhood "knew" everyone else and took care of each other. We even had a neighborhood cut. And they watched my house when I was away. <BR> <BR>Even the two guys who lived together reminded me of the two "old maid" terachers in the neighborhood of my childhood who also lived together since I can ever was aware of it -- I thought then that it was but "natural" part of things since the neighbors of my childhood never told me that there was anything wrong. These two "old maids" were well-respected grade school teachers in the school where I went. <BR> <BR>I have not lived in the "Bible belt rural America" long enough yet or in a number of places, so maybe I was just fortunate that I had always good neighbors in all the places I lived so far. I wonder therefore where the "rural christian community" of MaryBeth is. <BR> <BR> <BR>neil <BR>

Oops- <BR> <BR>Sorry, but I totally disagree with the logic that since MB is entitled to her opinion, no one should respond. It is the same as posting an opinion warning about going to a place because there are a lot of blacks, jews, hindus,latinos, buddhists or vegetarians. It's all prejudice. I believe many people feel that ignoring prejudice and bigotry only allows it to spread, as it can be misconstrued that silence implies approval. When Nazis were exterminating people and espousing disapproval of certain groups, things got progressively worse until people took a stand against it. Common sense says that you cannot post such an offensive message and not expect to be contradicted.

Time to come out! When this message was posted it was meant as a rather silly joke which has now backfired totally out of control. I have to confess that I, Mary-Beth, American, godfearing, rural homemaker, am actually a 41 year old British gay man. The original message and follow ups were supposed to be completely tongue-in-cheek and I never imagined for one moment that they would be taken so seriously. I suppose I should have realised this after the first few postings and stopped there but I was amazed at the interest this was generating. It is cheering, but hardly surprising that so many of the Fodorites hold such liberal views. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever read such a tirade of sanctimonious, self-righteous drivel in all my life and I can't believe that you are all so naive that you took this ludicrous woman seriously. How on earth did you think that this bigot on her "first trip to Europe" would possibly end up in Sitges? It's hardly on the usual tourist trail for middle-aged couples 'straight' out of Hicksville, USA or wherever! As for all the references to "these people" and "loving the sinner...", I really thought that you would have seen through me by then. <BR> <BR>I think that quite a few of you need lessons in humour and irony and I possibly need an intensive course in combatting naivety. My apologies for this episode - I certainly won't be repeating it! <BR> <BR>Oh and just for the record, I've had a couple of really brilliant holidays in Sitges!

What you failed to understand before creating the original post is that many people do act and feel like this. To me, the original post was a sad expression of the fear that resides in quite a large number of people in many parts of the world. It just wasn't far out enough not to be taken as real. If indeed you are a gay man, I would have thought that you would have been even more sensitive to this than I.

You must wrongly assume, "Mary-Beth", that everybody is as interested as you are of "seeing through" people. Speaking of drivel...

MB-- <BR> <BR>If you really are a gay guy, then you sure don't know much about life in the USA. If someone makes a comment like the initial posting in this thread--there are gay factions and supporters picketing and protesting all over the place. They sure don't think statments like that are made tongue in cheek and definitely have no sense of humor about it, yet no one calls their response sanctimonious drivel.

so you did this posting for amusement? ....yeah great joke.... <BR> <BR>Another internet desperado trying to be something they are not. The replies you received were genuine, unlike you.

M-B: <BR>1) Your ruse was not unrecognized by all, and was one-upped by Catherine's 'supra-troll' post <BR>2) Many readers enjoy this forum because it allows for expression of opinions and open discussion. Whether your post was legitimate or trolling is not really the point in many respects. <BR>3) There are millions of people in the USA who hold the opinions proffered in the initial post. It served as a springboard for discussion. If someone posts about clubbing baby seals for their pelts (which some view as ethical and a reasonable use of resources) there'll be vehement response on any forum. Whether it's real or ruse, people are in these forums to read the opinions of others and discuss. So what's your point?

My only comment is to Maira. Wake up and smell the...... This type of thing,(discrimination? which means to differentiate) will exist until the end of time! Do you really think that say, racial discrimination will no longer exist anytime soon? It is human nature to discriminate so don't hold your breath. For example, the Jews have been persecuted since at least the time of Jesus and as was evident just days back by the shooting at the Jewish daycare center here in Calif, they still are! By the way, could care less about the gay issue.

Marybeth-- <BR> <BR>I generally avoid posts such as this and let Tony handle them--but this little voice kept whispering 'we are not in Fodors forum anymore, Toto'. <BR> <BR>Two questions-- <BR> <BR>Were you ever a spokesperson for orange juice? <BR> <BR>Do you know what year it is? <BR> <BR>Now, go to your dictionary and look up politically correct and think before you post here again. <BR> <BR>I am closing my eyes, clicking my heels and whispering--'there's no place like home' hoping when I open them this post will be gone and it all will seem like a very bad, somewhat surreal dream. <BR> <BR>glenda

Paciano, may I remind you that there was a time in history when women weren't allowed to vote, blacks weren't allowed in front of the bus (among other places), "Irish need not apply", etc...etc.... Yes, I know that prejudice and, its direct consequence, discrimination, will be with us forever, but hat does not mean that we should not do something about it. Imagine where would we be if people would have just said -"Oh, well, there is always going to be some prejudice. Might as well let this one go..."- <BR> <BR>Paciano, I think you are the one who oughta wake up and smell the coffee.

Is there anyway we can send this to the bottom?

Mary-Beth, I am the churchgoing mother of teenage sons who went on record as saying that I am not afraid to have my boys be aware of homosexuality, and would not hesitate to introduce my boys to a gay acquaintenance. <BR> <BR>However, after hearing your arrogant criticism of our responses as "sanctimonious, naive drivel," I would certainly hesitate to introduce my boys to you as any kind of a man of honor.

Mary Beth. A little naughty of you to have provoked such an argument. Perhaps you should have known better after seeing how some of these threads develop. I got the joke from the beginning and was rather surprised that no-one else did. Then again the British sense of humour has always been rather perplexing to Americans! If you guys over the pond would like to learn a little of our culture from this forum, I think Mary Beth has come close to showing our 'special' sense of humour!

Mary-Beth, If you were a teenager, there would be an excuse for you, but seeing as how you're 41, there is none. I think that you knew exactly what you were doing, and knew that it wouldn't be funny in the end. I don't think your sense of humor (if you can call it that!) is typically British, it's just juvenile, and I think that you need to get a life! Have you heard of the boy who cried "Wolf?" Maybe next time, the letter from a bigot will be real, but no one will respond because they think it's just another joke! <BR> <BR>The point of my postings above, to all concerned, was not that you shouldn't respond (as someone said), but how you respond!

'Mary-Beth' or Alan or whatever your wretched name is: I really think you need to get out more instead of spending time in fodors Europe exciting yourself with the genuine replies by all these people.