clairobscur

"And if they are using their children, hold the parents legally responsible after a 2nd offence."


The problem is, from what I heard, that they don't know who the parents are (and sometimes their parents actually aren't even in the country. The kids are sometimes "loaned&quot. The children operating in gangs are apparently drilled, and don't speak. They're handed to the child protection services and then escape.

clairobscur

"And if they cannot show other means of support besides criminal activies confiscate any *luxury* items they own (car/motorcycle, jewerly, electronics, etc)."

They don't have those. I've seen news reports and documentaries about the slums (there's no other word) where many of these people live in the suburbs of Paris...You wouldn't believe such places exist in a first world country.

Liam

Thanks for the replies. To answer a question, I live in a town that abuts the city limits of Boston and I work in a very touristy area of the city. Yes, we get inundated with busloads of tourists who get dropped off, literally, in front of my office building every day. I frequently have to cut through a crowd of camera-clad, gawking foreigners each day when I step out for a mid-day trip to the gym or to grab lunch. (I don't mean disrespect, I quite like our visitors and wish more would come to visit.)

But I still wonder about the disparity of what appears to be petty street crime in Europe v. North America. I gre up around NYC, so I remember quite a number of three card monty dealers in Times Square, but that's a different kind of theft than a pack of kids surrounding a tourist at a train station. Is it that visitors to the US don't complain about being pick pocketed? I ask this in all seriousness because I honestly have never seen nor heard of crowds of street kids surrounding tourists and lifting wallets or personal effects like you hear about Rome or certain other spots in Europe.

mnapoli

I was visiting Paris for four days three years ago and I saw 3 attempted pickpocketings, I live in a major metropolitan city in the U.S. and I haven't witnessed one in the U.S. Maybe I'm an absolutely abnormal traveller, but that was my experience. I believe that petty theft is much more rampant in Europe than in the U.S.

nytraveler

Agree. I'm been to europe more than 70 times - between vacations and business trips. And I have NEVER had any problems with pickpockets or scams.

I have heard a couple of tourists complaiing about having things stolen - but in each case they were clearly at fault.

If you choose to sleep overnight on a train sitting up in a seat and someone takes your camera when you're asleep - you're lucky they didn't take more.

And if you're standing in line to buy a ticket at a train station and set your purse on top of your suitcase while you turn back to the counter - what do you THINK will happen to it.

I know there are rings of professional pickpockets who can get things from people who are as clueless as those described above. But - they also operate in cities in the US - I've seen several reports in the news.

There are one or 2 cities where the pickpockets are more apparent - but if you know that - then just be sure you don;t fall victim. And, yes, some police are not focused on pickpockets - they're busy looking for terrorists and other major criminals.

(If you go to either Penn Station of Grand Central in NYC there are police everywhere - as well as national guard - and they are NOT looking for pickpockets. They're from the terrorism task force - and have other duties. If you're the victim of a violent crime they will help you - but if you complain about losing a wallet they'll just tell you to file a report. That's their job.)

MademoiselleFifi

I've been pick-pocketed twice, and close to home both times. Got my wallet stolen in a supermarket in completely un-touristy El Cerrito, CA over 20 years ago (must have left my bag unzipped while writing a check). More recently, my old, half-broken cell phone was stolen from the side pocket of my handbag when I was fumbling with an umbrella while exiting a subway station near Times Square. I'm a lot more careful while travelling.

Apres_Londee

I live in Toronto the Good and the management of the building where I work recently sent out an email warning people to be careful because an organized group of pickpockets are stealing credit cards from women's wallets in the food court. Apparently they pluck the wallet out of a woman's purse, take the credit cards, and then replace the wallet back into the handbag.

We also get the occasional email warning about thieves getting into the building and stealing people's unattended wallets while they are away from their desks.

And this is a highrise in the financial district with full security where you need your pass anytime you want to get through a door.

The US is unique if petty theft is as rare as the OP claims.

latedaytraveler

Hi Liam, I also live outside of Boston on the North Shore. Thankfully, I have never been robbed at home. Have been to Europe well over a dozen times and never been pickpocketed although many more saavy travelers than myself have been. I have gone mostly on tours but have also gone with friends independently, driven, on trains etc.

I have never taken public transportation in Europe so that is another matter. At my age, I am not out alone at night either. However, from my experience taking two tours in Spain (love that country!), I have heard a few horror stories about people being mugged.

Example - a few years back we were in Madrid, going to a restaurant in the early evening when we heard a great commotion. A couple sitting in an outdoor cafe had just been ripped off and the aggrieved male was swearing and chasing the culprit who had just taken his wallet from his table as he was paying his check.

I must admit, it was a bit unsettleling to observe this incident.

But don't let that stop you from enjoying Europe. Always have an extra credit card and some American dollars stasted away in your luggage.

Enjoy!

flanneruk

"But I still wonder about the disparity of what appears to be petty street crime in Europe v. North America."

Let's assume petty street crime IS more common in Europe.

The point is it's petty. And we know it.

"I have heard a few horror stories about people being mugged." refers to an incident in which a wallet was grabbed, but the only violence came from the victim. Mugging requires violence, and it's rare in Europe - at least in major city centres, though not in the ghastly low-income housing estates round cities like Manchester or Paris.

Almost every example of pickpocketing etc involves some carelessness on the victim's part. Since it's been going on in big cities for centuries, the prevailing public view is that it's your job to stop yourself being targetted. Having your wallet stolen is a bloody nuisance, but there are far more important problems - like the violence in low-income housing estates - for the police to concentrate on, or for illiberal judicial stunts like "one strike and you're out".

Except of course for Italy's machine-gun toting absurdity. The country's run by a criminal, who knows fine that the more people diverted to pointlessly looking butch, the fewer available for rooting out his cronies' real crimes. But in the rest of Europe, where governments are accountable to voters, we're forever demanding tougher police action for this or that - but we just don't take getting our briefcase nicked once a decade that seriously. And we don't want to live in a police state so people can leave their wallets on a table for an hour.

It's just not true that only tourists are targetted: how on earth in a cosmopolitan city like London can anyone - especially someone with half a second to decide whether to risk being caught - tell the difference between a tourist and a local? You have to live somewhere extraordinarily isolated even to think there IS such a thing as a "local" in a real city.

What thieves target is people making themselves vulnerable. We all do it at some time in our lives. Most sensible London parents see the first time their 10 year old gets his mobile phone stolen on the way to school rather like a vaccination: a mildly unpleasant experience that'll build resistance to real threats later.

Ultimately, it's a kind of mirror image of the health debate. Europeans regard it as the job of a stroller in a city to prevent himself from being robbed. If he gets this wrong, there's only minimal assistance or prevention available from the State, and we deeply mistrust the idea of giving the State extra resources or powers to protect the feckless from the consequences of their lack of feck.

clairobscur

"how on earth in a cosmopolitan city like London can anyone - especially someone with half a second to decide whether to risk being caught - tell the difference between a tourist and a local? You have to live somewhere extraordinarily isolated even to think there IS such a thing as a "local" in a real city."

Huh... That's easy. The tourist is wearing shorts, the local a tie. The local's belonging are in his briefcase, the tourist's in his backpack. The local is reading the paper, the tourist is reading a map. The local is using his cell phone, the tourist his camera. And finally the local is to be found around an office building, the tourist around a monument.


To paraphrase you, I would say : "You have to live somewhere extraordinarily isolated even to think there IS no way to easily find an obvious tourist in a large city"

Cowboy1968

flanneruk was probably only referring to tourists from the Continent. Europeans spend lots of time and effort to blend in with regard to proper local attire to avoid scams, as we all know from numerous threads.
I always pack my Saville Row suit and bowler hat when I head to London. Wearing expensive business attire on my way to the City is the best way to scare off thugs, since they rather steal any tourist's white trainers and 5 year old Nikon than my brand new Blackberry and 500 GBP briefcase.

Ozziez

"Don;t know where you live but pickpocketing and other minor street crimes/scams are fairly frequent in tourist areas of many large cities."

This is true, however it is not the case in all countries. We moved to Australia 14 years ago, from a very dangerous and crime-ridden part of the world. Until our move we really used our street smarts (and our revolvers and burglar alarms and rottweilers and security devices) every day because petty crime and violent crime was rife.

I have lived in three large cities in Australia, and we have a lot of tourists. Yet this is still a country where you can leave your purse on the roof of your car while distracted by a baby who does not want to be strapped into a car seat, drive off, and have your purse returned to you fully intact a few hours later. The same goes for handbags left on buses, money dropped in shopping centres, wallets left on counters in shops, sunglasses left in public toilets, etc, etc. even 14 years later, there is not a day that goes by that I don't pinch myself to make sure I'm not dreaming.

The downside to this is that tourists from countries where stealing uncommon are so trusting that they are easy prey. My children have grown up believing that everyone is honest but I know that I will have to give my children a comprehensive lesson on how to protect their belongings before our European trip in December. I am so sad that this will be necessary.

Sue_xx_yy

I would not be surprised if there was a guild of pickpockets. It's a craft that's been practiced for centuries, handed down the generations, don'tcha know.

Pickpockets don't discriminate between locals and tourists, having worked out long ago that people get as distracted reading the paper or answering their cellphones as they do snapping a photo or consulting a map (which, by the way, locals must do on occasion as well - if they go outside their ordinary routine haunts in the city.) Also, a pocket is a pocket - be it on a pair of trousers, or a pair of shorts.

flanneruk

"The tourist is wearing shorts, the local a tie"

Have you ever been to London? Or Paris? Or any other real city?

Jake1

Some places are just more prone to one type of crime than other. Factors such as opportunity, where law enforcement bodies place emphasis, and cultural/social issues enter into it.

Certainly places like Rome, Paris, Venice, etc. have masses of easily identified tourists who make relatively easy targets as opposed to locals--with less risk of prosecution even if caught. Many of these cities in Europe also have a lot of new immigrants who are economically disadvantaged--they need a source of income, like tourist wallets and purses.

I just returned from visiting family in El Paso, Texas. Pickpocketing by Mexican and Central American immigrants (legal and illegal) is not a problem, but you'd better not leave a garage door or window open as you'll lose a pickup truck full of stuff in a few minutes--even if you're sitting in your den watching TV or out in the backyard with a beer watching the barbecue turn your steak into charcoal.

People who need money are going to try to get it however they can--and that varies from place to place.

lobo_mau

I was planning to say something, but it's no need since Clairobscur said it all.

Guenmai

I've been vacationing in Europe, almost annually since 1973, and I am always more on guard as for the pickpocketing/scam situation in some European cities than I am here at home.

As for the comment to the tune of tourists walking around looking like a target with a camera out etc...well, I'm from L.A. County...over 40 years here... and this is a BIG tourists area and trust me there are PLENTY of tourists here walking around especially beach cities like Santa Monica with or without cameras out, but looking like OBVIOUS wandering tourists.

I was just in a store, last weekend, not in a beach area though and a young guy and his girlfriend were wandering around looking like real tourists and he had a big camera, with a telephoto type of lens, strapped across him. I thought to myself why would anyone be so obvious?

And as to the comment about if a person speaks various languages so they can know what the pickpockets are saying as they are planning to pickpocket them...well, I have had 9 languages in school and whenever there has been an attempted pickpocketing on me over the 30-plus years that I've been going to Europe, I didn't hear anyone talking about it. If there were two pickpocketers, they already knew what they were going to do before doing it. I watch BODY language and EYE contact as they will give each other EYE contact.

One of my best friends, who's American, and fluent in French had his passport and money ripped off of him in the metro in Paris and he had it in a pouch, around his neck and tucked in his shirt. He's been to Paris a lot and has even lived there. The pickpocketers didn't discuss what they were going to do in his presence, they just got into the metro train and did it.

He ended up the whole day at the police station and the American Embassy reporting the theft and trying to get another passport. Who would have gone to the police station and stayed for hours going through all of the bureaucracy to report it if only money had been taken? And even if it had been reported, then what are the chances of it being recorded in some statistical report on thefts?

Also, one of my closest Danish friends and a friend of hers came to visit me here in Pasadena and they didn't have to strap a camera across them to look like a tourist. They stood out like a sore thumb. I sent them out and around L.A. County, for a few days, on the Red(?) line, or one of those public transportation lines, as I had to work and couldn't drive them around. I gave them some lifeskills lessons first. They took public transportation on all of the days that I had to work and when they came back each day, they said that people were so nice and would just walk up to them, out of the blue, and ask if they needed directions somewhere. Some people even went with them all the way to their stop, on the train line, to make sure that they could find where they were going and arrive safely. They said that they were sitting outside having something to drink when yet another person, out of the blue, curiously them where they were from. They said this happened every day that they were out. They asked me if they really looked that tourist obvious and I told them that they definitely did.

And as far as to the comment of whether one sees considerable numbers of tourists in groups in the States, well there sure are here in L.A. There are large groups of Asian tourists and lots of other groups aimlessly wandering around. Happy Travels!

danon

A friend who has traveled around the world had his camera bag ( with very expensive equipment) stolen at the home town airport while checking in ( he put the bag on the floor for a few minutes only).
Thieves are everywhere looking for
victims.
It may be up to us to be mindful of that - as much as one can be.

Guenmai

correction..."curiously asked them.." Happy Travels!

clairobscur

"The tourist is wearing shorts, the local a tie"

Have you ever been to London? Or Paris? Or any other real city?"


Since a detailed explanation is apparently required

Disclaimer 1) I know there are locals who don't wear a tie. Lots of them.

Disclaimer 2) I know there are tourists who don't wear shorts. Lots of them

However, as (almost, apparently) everybody could have understood, my point was that it's not difficult to notice and find a target.. I mean a tourist... If you intend to.
But if if you really insist on stating that really, nobody could possibly notice the slightest difference between a random accountant going to my office building and a random tourist going to the major Paris museum that is situated right next door, go ahead. I won't discuss this anymore.

Someone also wrote "A pocket is a pocket, on a pair of trouser or in a pair of shorts". Right. Except that what interest the pickpocket is the *content* of the pocket. Next time you visit a museum, look at the wallet of foreign tourists buying their tickets and more specifically the amount of cash some of them are carrying around. Compare it to the average amount of money you're carrying around at home.

Finally, several posters mentioned the kid-thieves and such. Where are they to be found? Do you often see them hanging around in districts mostly devoted to housing and office buildings, or nearby major
tourism sites? If they're equally interested in tourists and locals, why aren't they found everywhere? Because they enjoy studying architecture between two thefts?