Hello---I am starting to plan a trip to Italy for next year (June, 2010). This will be a graduation present to our two daughters, who will then be 18 and 22. I want to make it a fun and relaxing trip for them, mixing up city sights and museums with lake and seaside relaxation and hiking. I'm tentatively planning 3 nights each on Lake Como, on the Ligurian coast, and in Tuscany, plus two in Milan and a few others here and there depending on where we fly into (Zurich or Milan).

I would like some help with Tuscany. We do not want to stay in Florence, but will visit for a day. We will be travelling by train, so I am looking at smaller towns with good train access. That seems to point to Lucca, Pistoia, or Montecatini. (I can't seem to find a town south of Florence with good train access, presumably because the nice towns are all perched up on hills.) We would like a place that offers pleasant walking in the evenings---to and from dinner---and a hotel that offers a warm welcome. We all appreciate good food.

I've never been to these places (but have been to Florence) so all I know is what I read and the photos I see on the web. Montecatini seems to have some greenery---parks and palm trees---and a higly regarded hotel with a swimming pool (La Torretta), which my husband and daughters would love. Lucca seems to offer old-world charm, but I've read it feels stark at night when the shops close and pull down their shutters. I know nothing of Pistoia except the location looks good.

So what would you suggest? Any particular hotels you would recommend? We like the smaller, family-run places; don't need luxury but a swimming pool is attractive for this part of the trip. Balconies are always a plus for me. We will need either two double rooms or a quad, and I'd like to keep the total under 400 euro if possible. 300 would be better!

Thanks for your help.

I'm not sure I agree with that description of Lucca -- and I am not a fan of Lucca! But you can walk around the walls, where you might even catch a breeze, and Lucca has a quite lively passegiata,. It also has several truly charming piazze. I'd be surprised if you can find a swimming pool hotel inside the walls -- and you would want to stay inside the walls.

Pistoia is probably not what you're looking for unless you are delibertely seeking an undertouristed, off the beaten track destination. It's got quirky charms, but not enough to put it in the league of making it a base. And I would suspect it shuts up more at night than Lucca does, and I doubt there is a hotel with a swimming pool. Maybe not even a 3 star hotel.

I've not been to Montecatini Terme. But if you think you're daughters and husband would love it -- gee, why not?

I would also suggest you consider Pisa, which away from the isolated area of its beautiful monuments is a university town with lots of life.

And consider Fiesole, which would be cooler than almost everyplace you are considering. And consider Prato.

Thanks! I did wonder about Fiesole. I remember being up there on that terrace overloking the town when I was in Florence as a college student. Does it have a small-town feel and evening passegiata? Nice hotels?

And Pisa---I wasn't aware it is a university town. Shows how litle I know of this area (although I have been there too, way back in college). If there is more to it than th etouristy area around the Leaning Tower I can look into that too.

I know you want walking access to dinner, but just throwing this out there...have you considered doing an agriturismo vs. hotel if you're looking to stay in Tuscany? In my humble opinion, it's the way to go! My husband and I stayed in Greve in Chianti, a charming small town 1 hour south of Florence, on a vineyard. We had a car and did day trips to Lucca/Pisa, Siena, and Volterra and also did a couple of vineyard tours and wandering in the nearby small towns. And side note - we LOVED Lucca. We were only there a 1/2 day, but I thought it was gorgeous. Of course, we were "within the walls" the whole time, so I don't know much about the rest of the city...

The agriturismo idea is very appealing, but we are trying very hard not to rent a car. It would do us no good at all for visiting Florence for the day, and the last time we drove in Italy (in the Veneto) we found it way too stressful.

I may have found a nice compromise (a country estate very near Siena), but then I'll have to figure out how to avoid Palio week.

I think the main draw of staying in Fiesole is easy, constant access to Firenze while having the benefit of olive trees and vinyards. There are some agriturismi up there and a few hotels. Try google searches. It is a small town, and I would expect the evening activities to be limited.

There is a great deal more to Pisa than the Campo dei Miracoli, but it is a small city. If you have an appetite to live among the Italians without a lot of tourist interface, it works. But other towns are more atmospheric.

If you go for a country estate near Siena, are you sure you won't need a car?

No, I'm not sure, but it is only 1 km from the train station and 2 km from town. We would take a taxi there with our luggage from the train station, and after that we would be happy walking. But I'm still just exploring options, and open to all suggestions!

Are your daughters interested in staying in quiet, relaxing places? I'm one of a small minority (DH too), but I didn't find Lake Como very appealing. We were visiting in September, so it was somewhat after the season, but it was a little too quiet for us (as in, it felt dead). If I was the age of your daughters, I would probably choose to spend more time in a city like Florence, where there a lot of young people and a lot more going on at night.

On Montecatini Terme, maybe I'm thinking of another town entirely, but I seem to remember it as a long town, stretched out along a busy main road, with lots of big somewhat-characterless hotels (and yes, palm trees). Big spa town, but more for the healing waters type of spa rather than pampering and relaxation. Others who are more familiar with Tuscany can probably provide more info on this town.

Also, I know that you want to avoid driving, and you've experienced driving in Italy, but you might want to reconsider, especially if you want to stay in a smaller town in Tuscany. I assume you have four potential drivers; would it be less stressful know the 4 of you could trade off the driving and navigating duties? Would a GPS system be helpful? Just seems like it would offer so much more flexibility with the small locations you're interested in. Also, from what I've heard (I've never priced train tickets for 4 adults), you may find that train tickets for 4 are more expensive than a car rental.

Also, from what I've heard, Siena offers the best choice for train connections south of Florence; I think there's a bus from there to San Gimignano.

For a trip in Tuscany that is aimed at visiting Firenze but not staying there, I think a car would be a nuisance. And places like Lucca and Siena mean leaving the car outside the walls. Also, if you found driving in the Veneto stressful, in and of Firenze is no fun. And four round trip tickets from Lucca to Firenze are not going to more expensive than car rental and parking.

Train connections from Siena can be problematic for destinations other than Firenze.

enzian, I'm concerned that if you stay 2km from Siena, your evening options will be limited, and I'm not even talking about nightlife as much as I am talking about ease of having dinner and doing some strolling around. After a day of sightseeing elsewhere and going back to the hotel to change clothes, I'm not sure you'll want to negotiate the 2km into hilly Siena with anything other than a taxi, likewise coming back. Buses in Italy seldom run late into the night.

What really matters is whether your daughters are marathon walkers or what kind of urban ambience they will tolerate or even enjoy. The core of Lucca and Siena are well-preserved if heavily touristed towns which offer atmospheric strolls at night through ancient streets. Pisa and Firenze are workhorse cities, with antique corners, but are filled with Italian life, especially Pisa. Pistoia or Fiesole have village-like qualities and in the case of Pistoia, a real sense of life in Italy away from mass tourism, but their smallness means a limit to how much there is there to discover.

Hope the four of you can find the right spot!

Thank you for your comments, Zeppole. I appreciate what you are saying about staying 2 km outside of Siena. The girls are good walkers (we usually go hiking in Switzerland, and one of them runs half-marathons). But we would like to enjoy the "atmospheric strolls through ancient streets" too---after all, that is one reason we are going to Italy. Are the historic centers of Siena and Lucca free of traffic? That would be a nice plus (we loved Venice for that reason among others).

I will present the choices to the rest of the family---medieval city with historic center (Siena or Lucca) versus smaller village (Fiesole or Pistoia). It will be interesting to see what they say. They have been to London and Paris; loved London but Paris not so much. They also like Luzern and love the small carfree villages in Switzerland. But in Italy we are going for something different---more history, more discovering a different culture. And a little "dolce far niente" if that doesn't sound trite.

As for Pistoia----it was a close friend who recommended that town. They spent a week there, staying in Pistoia for a base and visiting Tuscany from there. The aspect of being away from "mass tourism" is appealing to us. My husband and I both understand enough Italian to get by where no one speaks English (although we can't say much in Italian.)

A few things to consider with your 3 nights here, 3 nights there plan:

The train journey from Varenna on Lake Como to Riomaggiore (for example) on the CT is 4.5 hours. Unless you get a very early start, you'll pretty much lose a day in transit.

The train journey from Riomaggiore to Siena (for example) in Tuscany is 4 hours.

The train journey from Siena to Milan takes more than 4 hours, and you change in Florence.

So, you're going to spend a lot of time on trains in those nine days.

People have mentioned all the other lovely places you could visit from Siena (and you mentioned Pistoia). But with only 3 nights and the wish to day-trip to Florence one day, you won't be seeing much beyond Florence and your base town. You might consider moving to Florence for that 3rd night, seeing the city the next day and then moving on to Milan in the evening.

Or add more days to Tuscany.

Jean--thank you for your comments.

As long as we can keep the train journeys to 4 hours or so, we count it as "quality time" for the family---talking, playing cards, reading or maybe napping.

I think that Lucca makes the most sense for our base in Tuscany, as it is 4 hours by train from Milan, and provides goo train connections to other places. So our route would be Varenna -- Milan (one night or 2)-- Lucca --- Cinque Terre --- Milan (or back to Züich) for flight home.

Until I actually book the tickets, I don't know for sure how long the whole trip will be; if there is extra time I can add it to Tuscany.

Montacatinni, Volterra. San Giminano, Lucca , Multipulciani, Pienzz small and wonderful
Sienna larger and wonderful

I think Fiesole would be a great pick if you do not want a car. It is a beautiful little town with a good number of resturants and a lot of places to hike in the vicinity some good hotels and one great hotel and you are a short bus ride into florence - what could be better

Although you do not mention the name of the place you are considering near the train station in Sienna, I am wondering if it is the place we stayed a couple of years ago. I found it through searches on Fodor's. It was formerly an olive farm. Despite a major attempt to retrieve the name of the place, my brain can't come up with it. Maybe later. Anyway, it was lovely. Granted it was not out in the country, but it certainly had a country feel. The grounds were lovely and the rooms large. Sorry to be vague, but if you have the name of the place, send another reply. I am sure I would recognize the name if I saw it. I highly recommend the place we stayed if only I could think of the name!! PJK

How about Piccolo Oliveto ?

just realized I slaughtered the spellings of my favorite towns San G, Pienza.......oh well

Not to mention Multipulciani

The villa near Sienna's train station which I could not think of earlier is called Borgo Grondaie. If you decide to stay there, get good directions as it is was a little hard to find. As mentioned above, however, it is very nice and convenient for train travelers. I will keep up with this thread because we are headed back to Tuscany this fall for a more leisurely visit. I am interested in the recommendations of a central place to stay for several days. We will have a car, but we may stay at Borgo the first night and pick up the car in Sienna.

If, instead of daytripping by trains, you use buses, then you can do more from Siena. Siena is lovely, dark and medieval at night. Fiesole is good for Florence, but anything beyond requires a 2-step journey. Lucca is nice. But neither Siena or Lucca is a small town; they have small centers, but spread out beyond.

I, too, think Lake Como, beautiful as it is, might be a bit slow for your daughters. However, if you fly into Milan and use Lake Como to get over jet lag, it might work well.