suec1

I think Italy is calling for an immigration conference of the EU countries to help them address this complex and really, threatening problem. IMDone here makes a good summarizing comment about what a complicated situation this is. I'm wondering really, how many are refugees from the various conflicts and how many are economic migrants.

I believe that ISIS / Al_Queda has made statements to the effect that they hope to conquer the Vatican. No matter how big hearted the people of Italy may be, that must be a frightening statement.

bvlenci

I only brought the Holocaust into this to note that those who criticised the behavior of other countries during the Holocaust should stop and think about this new disaster and ask what their countries were doing. I wasn't talking about Nazi persecution, but about other countries who did (or mostly didn't) assist refugees.

The UK has certainly been heavily criticised for refusing visas to Jews trying to escape Germany. The Kindertransport allowed in only unaccompanied children. Some of them were children in orphanages, but many left parents behind and never saw them again. Think of the desperation of parents who had to decide whether to keep the family together or send their children to safety.

Something like half a million people tried to get visas for the UK during the 1930s. 10,000 unaccompanied children were allowed in, and something like 70,000 people in all during the 1930s. The US continued to allow Jews to enter under their normal immigrations procedures, but they didn't increase the quotas in the face of the demand. Neither country has anything to congratulate itself about.

I think the entire island of Lampedusa should be given the Nobel Peace Prize. The refugee crisis has brought the island's resources to the breaking point, and had a deleterious effect on the tourism industry (although I've read that the areas tourists visit are totally unaffected). And yet there has been no refusal to help the boat people, just pleas for other places to help. The churches of Lampedusa have struggled to give decent burials to unnamed corpses. The people of the island have protested when they observed guards (from other parts of Italy) at the refugee center mistreating the refugees. The other night, the mayor was up in the middle of the night coordinating the resources to accept the new wave of people who had been saved from the sea. She looked as though she hadn't had a decent nights sleep in months. And yet she has never said, "Send them back!" She does say that it's time for someone else to lend a hand.

IMDonehere

Palenq-

Number one-Someone else brought up the Jews. And number two it goes to the long standing prejudice of European countries.

Of course, you find facts and logic self-righteous.

IMDonehere

Sue writes:

I believe that ISIS / Al_Queda has made statements to the effect that they hope to conquer the Vatican. No matter how big hearted the people of Italy may be, that must be a frightening statement.
_______

That is basis of terrorism, to strike irrational fear in others. It is incumbent upon people not only to be aware of this but not to allow politicians pray upon these fears.

Michael

<i>not to allow politicians pray upon these fears.</i>

An appropriate slip when it come to the Vatican.

suec1

I can agree that terrorists hope to strike irrational fear BUT in light of events happening every day, there is plenty of evidence to believe ISIS is a credible threat. After all some of those Muslim migrants attempting to land on Italian soil were tossing Christian migrants into the sea. Politicians and elected officials are responsible to protect their citizens. I believe we have arrived back to the statement that it is a very complicated issue.

IMDonehere

You are correct Michael, it should be pray and prey.

IMDonehere

There is no credible threat by ISIS to the existence of the Vatican.

I worked three blocks from the Trade Center and saw the second plane crash into the South Tower. Our building was engulfed twice by dust and human remains. As late as November we got headaches and other symptoms from the particles in the air.

I resolved never to be frightened, to stand tall and not be intimidated or manipulated whether it be terrorists or our own politicians.

You can justify fear any way you want, but that is exact response terrorists want.

PalenQ

IMD - what would you do - welcome all the refugees that want to come - a short term solution since you know any solution to the root of the problem will be a long way off.

Italy says they don't even have room in Sicilian cemeteries for all the bodies and that all facilities for survivors are packed to the gills.

Should not countries like the U.S. step up too and help with the refugee problem - it ain't just a European problem.

suec1

PalenQ - there is a US resettlement program - we currently take some of these boat migrants that land in Malta. There is much talk about taking Syrians, tho not necessarily those that land in Italy, but there are (legitimate?) security concerns that are making the processing (out of Turkey and a few other countries) very slow. We do have conversations with EU countries about the refugee situation and as I noted above, we do provide resettlement to about 70,000 individuals per year - a fair number from African and Middle Eastern countries.

Pepper_von_snoot

In the nightmare of the dark
All the dogs of Europe bark,
And the living nations wait,
Each sequestered in its hate;

WH Auden, In Memory of WB Yeats.



Thin

bvlenci

Not many boats land in Malta, because Malta won't let them.

thursdaysd

Of course, this is a tragic situation. Of course, if I were Syrian or Libyan I would want to get out.

But, it is not clear what Europeans are supposed to do about this situation - hardly of their own making. Should all the non-combatants move to Europe? If not all, how many and where to? Population density in Europe in general is much higher than in the US. While Europe as a whole is diverse, individual countries are less so. Why should they be expected to take in large numbers of people who don't speak the local language, don't practice the local religion (or lack thereof) and have very different attitudes to, for example, the position of women.

It took the Spaniards hundreds of years to get rid of the Moorish invaders, why should they be expected to welcome a new invasion, albeit unarmed?

Michael

<i>Why should they be expected to take in large numbers of people who don't speak the local language, don't practice the local religion (or lack thereof) and have very different attitudes to, for example, the position of women.</i>

The same could be said of the U.S. or any other country whose culture, customs, and politics are radically different from the refugees'.

PalenQ

and if no one took them in there would be no refugees but then many of them would die or be killed back home?

a conundrum for sure.

thursdaysd

@Michael. Yes, it could. Taking in a few hundred or a few thousand refugees is one thing. Taking in tens or hundreds of thousands is another.

Michael

We do take in refugees; they are called undocumented workers:

"About 300,000 illegal immigrants entered the U.S. each year from 2007 to 2009, down from the roughly 850,000 that entered annually from 2000 to 2005, according to the Pew report."

PalenQ

How many refugees has Israel taken in - none I would guess.

BritishCaicos

Libya
Syria
Lebanon
Israel
Iran
Iraq
Turkey
Syria

There's the list of Middle Eastern countries whose current political boundaries make little sense in terms of history, culture or religion.

Add to that list Libya that has no government and is controlled by local factions then clearly the whole region is in a mess.

The BBC's recent series "Kill Christians" does a pretty good job of summarising the mess. It's little surprise so many are trying the get out. It is on iPlayer if anyone is interested.

thursdaysd

@Michael - and maybe Europeans don't want to go that route.