PalenQ

Someone might say, 'oh, I've got my rail pass and I plan to use it to travel to Basel, then Lucerne, then Bern, then Interlaken, then south to Locarno. If I walk it, I've wasted the pass. I'll just meet up with you again in Locarno in 10 days.'>

dogeared - Q - You suggest not buying a railpass because you may on a whim go hiking for days in the Alps or sailing - I guess you would say not to buy a string of discounted tickets ahead for time for same reason - so you advise just winging it and paying walk-up fares for all transportation - that could cost a huge amount in light of steep walk-up fares.

So you have a great point about flexibility (amongst many other sage helpful comments) but I think those things happening would be very slim chance - and without a pass or pre-booked discounted tickets the person would face staggering walk-up fares and probably not travel much at all?

So you have a great point but in today's world an impractical one.

And welcome to Fodor's and your willing to take time and make very very salient points of great help to newbie travelers!

Cheers!

Dogeared

I pay walk-up fares all the time PalenQ. Either you wing it or you don't. If you do, you learn just like anything else you do enough off, how to do it as effectively as possible.

The OP has given a budget that allows him to choose to do as he pleases. He doesn't need a rail pass and he doesn't need a string of discounted fares. He only ever needs at most, one fare to his next destination if he is winging it.

The problem is that people who plan things, also assume things. Why would anyone winging it buy a 'string' of discounted fares?

If he is winging it, how do you know he will ever need to buy even one fare to anywhere? Again, there is an assumption you have to make to say that.

I'm not saying he may not end up buying a ticket to somewhere but he might also meet someone in a hostel who has a vehicle and is looking for someone to share the cost of fuel to X. I've done that quite a few times. Or have a look at BlaBlaCar for example.
https://www.blablacar.fr/
You input from where to where and see if anyone is going your way.

People who plan don't go looking for ways to wing it effectively. People who wing it do and are far more likely to know about things like ride sharing services like BlaBlaCar.

When you wing it, you are also much more aware of opportunities that present themselves and are far more likely to take advantage of them because you have no commitments to stop you doing so. That is what I was trying to suggest with my examples. If you aren't committed, you are free to take up any offer that comes your way.

He could choose to hitch rides and never pay for a fare to anywhere and still travel all around Europe. There are all kinds of ways to travel without paying a lot of money for tickets of any kind. But you have to be in a position to take advantage of those methods.

You can't check BlaBlaCar, see there is someone looking for riders on Thursday from A to B and decide to take advantage of that offer if you have a schedule to keep and insist on being in B on Wednesday. Either you are winging it or you are not.

As for 'impractical', what assumption leads you to using that word? The assumption that there is something to be practical about, like a schedule. Wednesday or Thursday, doesn't matter to me, I can always find something of interest to do for another day. Or if I really want to leave where I am right now, I buy one ticket to somewhere and if there's a seat sale on to X, why not choose X?

It is hard to get your head around 'winging it' if you keep thinking in terms of B comes after A, then C, then D, etc. Winging it means you head for Europe thinking you'll spend 3 months travelling around Europe and 5 days in to your trip, you find yourself on a plane to Australia or something. If there is no plan, there are no wrong moves! There are only opportunities that you do or do not choose to take advantage of.

I was once in Italy and met a lovely young woman from Norway. After a bit less than a week of being in each other's company, she had a ticket back to Bergen and asked me if I wanted to return with her. What do you think I did? I bought a one way to Bergen, I'm no fool. Everything isn't about saving money. LOL

Dogeared

I should have added, that although I bought a full fare ticket to Bergen, I stayed for 2 weeks with no hostel/hotel cost, no food cost, had use of a car and a lovely local tour guide obviously, all free of charge.

So would one airfare have cost me more than 2 weeks bed, meals and transportation in Norway? I think not. My 2 weeks in Norway probably cost me a lot less than the average tourist going there is likely to spend.

Dogeared

PalenQ, have you ever done any sailing? I've been messing about on sailboats since I was quite young.

Suppose you plan to spend the summer sailing in the Med. You find yourself in Marseilles harbour and ready to move on. You look at the weather forecast and find the winds are going to be out of the south for the next few days. You were thinking of heading for Corsica and Sardinia but if you do that, you're going to be heading into the wind and so you would have to tack back and forth all the way for a couple of days and have the bow of the boat banging into the waves all the way. Not an exciting prospect.

Or, you could put the wind on your port beam and slide across to the Balearics. You've been to Majorca and Minorca before but you get out the Cruising Guide for the islands and you find that there is a nice little anchorage between Es Pujols and Punta Prima, which is a perfect anchorage when the winds are from the south, off the little island of Formentera and you have never visited that particular little island before.

http://www.sailingdreams.com/en/blog...ges-formentera

So you head there instead. Sailors are well used to changing plans based on the weather and the wind. None would think twice about making such a change. Corsica will still be there all summer and when the wind shifts, you can always head that way then.

I think in the same way when on land. If the 'wind' is favourable in one direction vs. another, I go where the wind blows me. Instead of wind, it just depends on opportunities that present themselves or simply a whim.

Maybe winging it comes more naturally to sailors. LOL

PalenQ

I applaud your travel style but don't think that is what the OP has in mind- wants to travel around Europe to see lots of places and some kind of railpass or discounted tickets would save a lot on money over walk-up fares.

Dogeared

Jeez, if you wing it PalenQ, as I have said, you see travel in different ways. There is no need for a railpass OR discounted tickets in order to be able to travel all over Europe if you want to.

You keep ASSUMING if you wing it you will have to buy a lot of 'walk-up fares'. You don't have to buy ANY at all if you don't want to.

Read my lips, it is not a choice between a railpass, discount tickets or walk-up fares. You seem to see it as an either/or. It is not.

The first time I visited Europe for a summer, I did not ride on one train/bus/ferry at all. How do you think I got around? I used my thumb!!! Contrary to what many might believe, that is still doable today if you want to do that.

If you are hung up on saving money, forget passes and tickets and find ways to travel for FREE.

thursdaysd

" I used my thumb!!! Contrary to what many might believe, that is still doable today if you want to do that."

It is irresponsible to encourage people to hitch hike in this day and age. There are a few places where it is a reasonable option (I hitched on the Isle of Skye a few years back), but in more built-up areas, especially for a solo traveler and more especially for a solo female traveler it is a recipe for potential disaster. And the number of people who might pick up a hitch hiker is surely drastically lower than when I hitched back in the 60s and 70s. I used to pick people up, I would not do it today.

This is Lonely Planet's take on it for Europe:

"Hitching is never entirely safe and we cannot recommend it. Travellers who decide to hitch should understand that they are taking a small but potentially serious risk. It will be safer if they travel in pairs and let someone know where they plan to go."

It makes little sense for the OP's itinerary in any case.

PalenQ

Read my lips, it is not a choice between a railpass, discount tickets or walk-up fares. You seem to see it as an either/or. It is not.>

read my lips -the OP for his proposed itinerary is best off with a pass or a string of discounted tickets or pay tons of money for walk-up fares. You scenario is for the odd traveler who just wants to go to Europe but not for one with an itinerary like the OPs.

And yes hitchhiking I think went out long ago in Europe for the same reasons it did here.

I think you present a wholly unrealistic option for young travelers but that is your opinion - I think the OP has a different type of trip in mind.

PalenQ

If you are hung up on saving money, forget passes and tickets and find ways to travel for FREE.>

I've done that several times - by bike for weeks on end! And at times hiking.

but does not even your blabla car expect you to share in the fuel costs?

thursdaysd

"but does not even your blabla car expect you to share in the fuel costs?"

Checked the site for a UK ride from Penzance to Bristol. None of the offerings were free, only one was actually from Penzance, and the cheapest, Falmouth to Bristol, was 18 GBP.

PalenQ

18 quid - far from free- a bus would have been cheaper I would guess or even a train?

There is no free ride - except hitchhiking of course.

thursdaysd

Train is definitely more expensive, although if you add the cost of getting from Penzance to Falmouth that cuts the difference. Bus from Falmouth is about the same but takes a while. And all the other offers were higher than 18 GBP, and there were a lot of days with nothing on offer.

Dogeared

OK, let's try for some clarity.

If the OP insists on following a planned itinerary then I agree PalenQ, he might as well get a railpass. But I was saying that he has a choice of following a plan or not following a plan.

You are talking only about if he follows a plan. I am talking about if he does not follow a plan. If you are going to address your remarks to me and what I have written, then what you write has to apply to NOT following a plan.

Halfway down this page I wrote to the OP, "How to plan your travel and where will you go. The first mistake in my opinion is the assumption that you must plan it."

I then outlined some of the differences and ended with, "What matters is that you know you realize you have a choice to make and not assume you must start out with a plan."

Anything since then I have written is about what happens when you do not plan. Either you are responding to what I have written and in the context in which I wrote it or you are not. If you want to write something in the context of the OP's original post, then don't address it to me and what I have written. Make sense?

Yes, BlaBlaCar is a fuel sharing way of travel. I never suggested otherwise. It's just a cheap way to get somewhere sometimes. It's one of many possible ways to get somewhere sometimes. I'm not saying it is the way to always travel, just an option.

Regarding hitching rides, in my opinion hitching is no less safe today than it was in the past. What differs is the paranoia of people who have been influenced by the media to believe stepping out the door of their house is a huge risk. Instead of just having an opinion about hitching, try doing some research on the subject and see what you find. For example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/op...gain.html?_r=0

Again, though it is simply an option, there is no point in trying to attack it as if I presented it as an absolute. If you were a single female, you might not want to exercise that option and I can understand that. It doesn't mean it's not a viable option for someone else with less fear though.

Here's the thing. If I present any option, someone will come up with some reason why it will not work for them in a specific situation. But it is not my job or NECESSARY to come up with an answer for every individual in every individual situation in order to PROVE you can wing it.

If you have 3 months and 15,000 Euros you can manage that with a planned itinerary or without a planned itinerary.

All I wrote to the OP was that he has a choice and does not have to assume he MUST have a plan. I don't see why anyone would want to try and argue that point. To argue it, you would HAVE to insist he can't manage 3 months on 15,000 Euros without a plan. Do you really want to try and argue that he MUST have a plan?

travelallovernow

Dogeard, Janisj, PalenQ, Dreamon, Guenmai, bilboburgler & everyone – all of your input has been enormously helpful! My responses have been few and far between because I have been busy rereading each of your responses and soaking up your eye-opening experiences and suggestions. As a brand spanking new traveler, I could not have come to a better place to tap into the wisdom of the people that have travelled there there before. Thank you for passing it on!

Dogeard – you brought up a great point that sometimes the best things in life are the unexpected—because there are no expectations. This ideology travels travel much further than this trip or any trip for that matter. Spontaneity was the complete and utter opposite of my initial mindset. The fears of uncertainty, of missed opportunities, and of higher costs have weighed on my mind. Such losing time trying to figure out how to get from A to B or where to sleep (or not having a place to sleep). Also, losing the ability of to stay at the best hostels.

However, I’ve taken some of your advice and opted for more of a fluid itinerary. My plan is to set timelines and book a few hostels/attractions ahead of time that are likely to sell out (like Ann Frank House), but leave some days/weeks in between open. Perhaps I will end up spending more time in some locations than anticipated! This goes back your philosophies that “less is more.”

Thanks again for all the great advice!

Dogeared

As long as you got that you have a choice you can make travelallovernow, whatever you decide to do is fine with me.

It's funny how perceptions differ. For example, you specifically mention, "missed opportunities" in reference presumably to if you didn't get your plan right. Yet for me, based on my experience, it is planning that tends to result in people missing out on spontaneous opportunities.

But the reality is, either way you will always miss some opportunities. Do you know what the Bocca Della Verita in Rome is travelallovernow? A planner could miss it by not coming across it in their research and planning time to go there. A non-planner could miss it just as easily obviously. If either finds out later about it, they may 'beat themselves up' about it. But the fact is, they did something else with their time. No one has enough time for everything regardless of whether they plan or not.

If you missed the Bocca Della Verita but spent all your time in the Colosseum, did you miss an opportunity? Well, yes, you did in one way but on the other hand, if you used some of your time to visit the Bocca, you would have missed the opportunity to spend more time in the Colosseum or perhaps visit the Forum.

Planners tend to think as if there is a list and if you can make sure you get all the places listed, you will get it RIGHT. Non-planners aren't concerned with lists and if they really understand the philosophy of winging it, they aren't concerned with getting it RIGHT. You can't really get non-planning wrong. LOL

But opportunities will always be missed by both regardless. The secret is to not worry about it. What matters is whether you used each day you had, well.

Here's the Bocca travelallover:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6af1dAc9rXo

StCirq

There is no disconnect between planning and not planning. I'm a careful planner, as are many here (precisely because I don't want to waste time and money, and know how not to). That NEVER means I miss a chance for a detour to the unexpected. It's hardly a black and white issue.

Hitchhiking is a very poor idea these days, BTW.

PalenQ

For years I winged it -with train pass and got off train and booked hotels in station hotel desks or tourist offices and that was fine.

But now with booking your own so so easy I arrange all my accommodations before leaving home- saves a lot of time and money by being sure to get something that is affordable to you.

You can book hotels that allow cancellation up to X hours or days ahead of time too.

Guenmai

"Dogeared on Feb 27, 17 at 5:36am
A base that might interest you in the future Guenmai or may interest travelallovernow during his 3 months, can be found in Antibes in the south of France. It is a student residence for most of the year although it is a private one, not a university owned facility:

http://www.studiosperlantibes.com/?lang=en#

It is right on the main square in the town. Don't let the rate for one night put you off, the rate by the month is a lot lower, look at the student page for a monthly rate."

That's great to know and thanks a lot for the post. I will definitely save that link.

The uncle of my best friend, here in L.A., had a huge villa in Beausoleil, across from Monaco, for decades and I used to use it as one of my bases as I lived in his split-level guest house when there. He moved from L.A., into his French villa and lived there for 25 years. But, he passed away 18 years ago.

I have a long-time acquaintance who owns a big house in Antibes that her family goes to each year, and it would be nice to possibly meet up with her, at some point, in Antibes. Having a base in Antibes is good as one then could easily fly down to either Morocco or Tunisia. I was last in both Tunisia and Morocco in the early to mid 80s and flew there from both Paris and Nice and on inexpensive charter flights.

Thanks again for the link.

Happy Travels!

thursdaysd

I have well traveled friends who winged it for years all across Europe and Asia, but for their three month trip to western Europe and Morocco this year, they booked ahead.

Dogeared

St Cirq, on what evidence do you make the statement that "hitchhiking is a very poor idea these days BTW."

All the evidence I am aware of says the exact opposite. But if you can provide some links to studies that show otherwise, I am willing to read them and change my opinion. Are you willing to change yours?

https://wandrlymagazine.com/article/hitchhiking/

It is easy to find links in which someone gives their opinion that it is a 'poor idea' but they are only opinions. They never have any statistical facts to back them up. In other words, it's simply hearsay.

I particularly like the FACT that you’re far more likely to just fall and die than to be killed hitchhiking. Yes there is a risk attached to hitchhiking but it is less of a risk than many things people do every day, like crossing the street or trip and fall down some stairs. Do you avoid those activities because of the potential risk?

You can perpetuate the belief that hitchhiking is a high risk activity or you can do the research and realize that what you believe is simply not borne out by the facts. Believing something to be true does not mean it is true and in this case, it isn't.

You also wrote, "precisely because I don't want to waste time and money, and know how not to."

Again, an assumption based on no evidence. I don't want to (and don't) waste time and money either. Do you know anyone who does? But your statement implies that those who do not plan do waste time and money and that planning does save you time and money over non-planning. That may be your belief but beliefs can as easily be wrong as be right (as shown by the facts on hitchhiking) and are as often based on an opinion about something than as they are on facts.

Again, if you can provide some real evidence to support your statement, I am willing to read it and change my belief. But I have yet to see anyone in any travel forum provide evidence that planning saves time and money over non-planning.

You say you, "know how not to." (waste time and money) You are obviously referring to believing you know how not to in terms of planning. What makes you think that I do not know how not to waste time and money when not planning? As I have said before, those who do not plan do things in a different way. Ways that you learn from experience of not planning.

IF you travel for 3 months and spend $15,000 USD and I travel for 3 months and spend $15,000 USD, what's the difference? Is it like that old game show, 'Name That Tune', where contestants bid for the chance to name a tune and the one who said they could name it in 3 notes vs. the other person saying they could name it in 4 notes, got the chance to name it.

If you say you can do 3 months in W. Europe, with good planning, on $10,000 and I say I can do 3 months on $8,000 with no planning, do I win?

Consider what factors you actually believe you can get a lower price on. An airfare? Most believe that. But the first assumption is that it is to a specific place. If you find what you think is a great deal to Rome and say I couldn't just show up at an airport and get a better deal, what are you really saying?

You're saying, on a flight to Rome. I might get a better price on a flight to London. Who paid less? I did without planning. You say, 'but it wasn't to Rome!' and I say, 'but I wasn't trying to go to Rome, I was simply trying to go to Europe.' I don't have a plan to go to Rome, I'm happy to go somewhere else if it interests me.'

It doesn't matter if you say you can get a cheaper bed or a train ticket or whatever, you are always coming from there being a plan to be followed. You ASSUME that every time you believe you have got the lowest price for something.

Nor do you save time over a non-planner. If there is no plan, no time can be saved or lost! That's a hard one for most people to get their head around I think.

When I travel without a plan, everything I do and every minute I spend doing it is part of the experience. You pre-book a hotel in X. I arrive in Y and find a hotel. I spend a half hour walking around Y to find it. During that half hour, do I see nothing? Talk to no one? Learn nothing?

You might spend that half hour sitting in the hotel bar enjoying a cold beer and consider that time well spent. You are after all on vacation and time spent relaxing is part of what you want to do. I spent my half hour walking around and consider that time well spent. Is either of us wrong?

You might have dropped off your bag and went to visit a museum right away. Again, part of what you are there to do. Is it better than my half hour walking around town? I think that's the kind of thing most people think of when they say they 'save time' over the non-planner. But if we both spent our time doing something we felt was time well spent, there is no 'winner' or 'loser'. We simply did something different.

Planning does not save you time over a non-planner. You have to assume that what the non-planner does with his time is not as valuable to him as what you did with your time is to you.

PalenQ, you wrote, "saves a lot of time and money by being sure to get something that is affordable to you."

I've yet to stay in a place I couldn't afford. Tell me how anyone could do that, it defies logic. LOL

I think what you were really saying is that you hold the common belief that a non-planner is more likely to have to pay more than they wanted to pay for something. I disagree. I've never had to pay more than I was willing to pay. If something is more than I am willing to pay, I go elsewhere. You are making an assumption based on someone planning something.

If a train ticket to A is more than I am willing to pay, I go to B instead. If a hotel room is more than I am willing to pay, I go to a hostel. And please don't ask what I do when there is no room available because there is an event going on or a convention in town. If there is, I go elsewhere. If there is no plan, there is no problem. What's more, if you don't have a booking, you don't need to concern yourself with cancellation terms, so they're irrelevant to the discussion.

Guenmai, you're welcome.

Thursdaysd, of course, there is no law that says a non-planner cannot choose to plan something. I sometimes plan travel because what I want to do is something specific. If I want to go and spend a couple of weeks lying on a beach, it would be foolish to not take advantage of a package air/hotel deal. It is rarely possible for the independent traveller to pay for a flight and hotel separately and pay less than a tour company's package offer for the same flight and hotel.

On a recent trip to Europe, I pre-booked a hotel because I knew I wanted to go to that specific area, for a specific period of time. I phoned the hotel and negotiated a price for 10 nights.

It's interesting to note in such cases that checking third party booking sites first, I have always been able to negotiate a better price directly with the hotel. Disproves another belief many people have that third party sites get them the best prices.

I really don't care if people plan or not plan. What I object to is people who plan trying to say their way is better somehow than non-planning. The reasons they give for it being better like saving time and money simply don't hold water.

Those who are psychologically better suited to a planned itinerary should plan. Those who prefer spontaneity should realize it is not necessary to plan and the common beliefs that planning somehow saves time or money or is in any other way better, are false.

Planners have no shortage of people in travel forums who can help them with planning. But those considering not planning find most people in travel forums telling them it would be better to plan. I would just like to see those who prefer to plan acknowledging that not planning is equally as good if it suits the individual better.

As I wrote earlier, I have never seen anyone who undertook longer term travel write in a travel forum that next time they would 'plan more'. I have seen plenty of people write that they would 'plan less.' It is not so important for someone on a 2 week vacation as it may be important for the longer term traveller and on this thread, the OP is looking at 3 months. So the choice of whether to plan or not plan deserves more thought before deciding anything.

Time for a coffee break. LOL