PalenQ

Why would friends Andreu's make up something like that? I've seen no indication of any reason for doing so and in interviews they said they were just saying what they heard.

why lie? give me one theory - i've heard none.

And i think if so he should be kicked off the broadcast team as a liar trying to cast allegations against Lance.

he should be kicked off anyway for the way he purposefully butchers the word DE as DAY - seemingly saying a stronger longer DAY everytime he says it. Just makes me cringe.

Not sure if Lance doped but the circumstantial (and in Andreu's instance to me credible) evidence he did.

One recent book pointed to Lance's team before his sring of wins was finishing out of the money so long that they all decided to dope as a team - Lance was there.

OJ indeed has more claims to innocence to me as do Lance and the new champ, already being accused of at least past doping.

PalenQ

Oh well we'll never know and back to other stuff:

Like why are the French so dismal - 27th place best and i think haven't won the Tour in centuries it seems.

I've biked all around France myself and see many teams out on Sunday mornings riding so the sport is big.

But how come they never seriously challenge for the tour win anymore?

Celticharper

Hi Tod,

I'd be glad to help you plan your trip with any advice I can offer.

The route is announced in October and once you know the towns in the Alpine & Pyrenean stages you can trace the routes fairly easily because there are limited routes that the riders can take. For other areas it’s a bit harder but you can get a general idea. We get the final turn by turn route in June so we make our final plans then.

We rent a car and my husband brings his bike along. We take camping gear in the form of a tent, sleeping bags, mat, 2 small chairs, sunshelter and tiny stove. With the tent we are able to camp along the route anywhere we want so we don’t have any problem of finding accommodations, which is the main problem in following the tour.

We’ve camped in Farmers fields, on the roadside (literally on the pavement) and on the tops of mountains. The police are very understanding and I’ve never seen them give anyone a hard time, in fact many times they’ll point out where to camp safely. The farmers hay their fields before the tour comes through and post signs that camping is available free in the field. The townspeople and shopkeepers decorate with cycling themes and artwork and all celebrate the tour together.

Camping alongside the French and International fans is a wonderful experience, we've met the nicest people and our love and respect for the tour endeared us to the French families we camped with. The French were very warm and welcoming.

The newspaper L’equipe has wonderful coverage of each tour stage for each day including times the riders are due at each point along the course and when the roads will be closed so it’s relatively easy to follow along (this may even be available on the web ahead of time I can’t remember). We made sure to pick up L’equipe each morning for the current standings and to read the interviews and to make our plans for the day. Many times we hopscotch over stages to see every other stage to arrive a day ahead and camp to await the riders. That way we can take a more relaxed trip.

It’s not that difficult, and I encourage anyone who loves the tour to try it. We’ve been hooked since our first stage in 2001. I’ve convinced so many people that they have to try it, and had everyone say it was the best experience ever, even those who have never traveled outside the US on their own.

If you need any other assistance, I’d be glad to help, just email be privately and I’ll help you plan. Or keep me in your reference and we can help you plan in October when the race route is announced.

Amitiés

basingstoke2

Rarely if ever, has any athlete been as closely studied as Armstrong. Aside form the usual testing required of all cyclists, he was closely studied by the Human Performance Laboratory at the University of Texas throughout his ENTIRE cycling career both before and after his bout with cancer. The studies were both non-invasive and invasive including regular tissue samples. The results of this testing were published in Journal of Applied Physiology, a respected peer reviewed academic publication. Nothing, repeat nothing, in that study suggests doping. Rather there are a number of inherent physical qualities that he has that put him a few percentage points above the rest. In a highly competitive sport like cycling, a few percentage points will do the trick.

OJ with more claims of innocence? Give me a break. Armstrong's claim of innocence is backed by science through rigourous studies over time, not some foolish jury ignoring DNA evidence swayed by a rhyming lawyer.

Celticharper

Just for the record PalenQ, the Andreu's both worked for Lance for a while before they had a falling out. There is a lot of bad blood between the three of them with Andreu's wife leading the charge. Frankie has taken a very low profile about this after the court case and rarely if ever mentions it.

It's not that uncommon for former friends to say the nastiest things they can think of to hurt someone they think has wronged them in some way.

PalenQ

Well no my saying that about OJ was hyperbole and i should not have said. Irresponsible as is continuing any debate about Lance - i really don't think anyone but him can know for sure. I like Lance and he did a great thing for spreading cycling interest to US as did Greg Lemond, who ironically takes my thinking in this about Lance doping i believe, before him.

Celticharper

Well said Basingstoke2. It's infuriating that people would rather believe rumor and inuendo rather than the absolute scientific test results.
But then again gossip is so much more fun.

He rode better than I did so he must be doping, not he beat me because he trained harder and understood the course better because he reconed it and my team didn't. They'd rather believe he cheated than to accept the fact that he was just plain better than they were?

Did the other teams all recon the routes? No! Did they train in a wind tunnel? Only a few have done this training. Did they work with nutritionists to guage the perfect diet year round not just during their few training months. Did they prepare with sports psychologists? Did they make a true commitment to winning or was this as Ullrich often said just a job.

So if you don't put in the work using whatever scientific training methods you can think of, don't whine when someone who uses these techniques beats you.

PalenQ

OK we want to keep discussing doping and Lance - fine.

Why does fellow Texan and Tour winner Greg Lemond suspect the same. Jealous - don't think a three-time Tour winner would be jealous.

What about the documented team meeting where they were fed up with being second banana and according to a team member decided to dope and did much better.
Yes just rumor, etc. but so much of it that where there's smoke there's fire.
Again i don't know but i'm not ready to give him a 100% pass like you all.

Celticharper

Lemond was a great cyclist in his day, and did wonders for the sport, but the last few years he has come across as a very bitter man.

Funny isn't it that he supported Lance until Lance overshadowed him, then he started to get suspicious, how convenient is that.

Now Lemond insists that every rider is doped. This attitude in not healthy for cycling in general and it insults the majority of racers who are racing clean.

He can't face that he was fading because of his hunting accident, his age and the disease that he has that saps energy, it was because everyone else was doping but him.

Has anyone ever questioned what was in those B12 shots he got that improved his racing so significantly?? If one wants to resort to rumor that would be a good a topic to examine.

Nothing done now compares to his accomplishments because all the riders are cheats, and everyone after him has been doping.

It's sad to see a champion reduced to jumping on every scandal for personal publicity. But that's what I think Lemond is doing now, how pathetic is that.

PalenQ

I really don't know about lemond, andreu and their personal agendas or Lance. But to give him a 105% pass is rather naive in today's cycling climate i believe. That's how i feel - and i like Lance and Greg - just that Frankie that gets under my skin.

basingstoke2

Actually, I don't want to keep discussing doping and Lance other than to say when I have a choice between good scientific evidence vs rumor, innuendo and gossip I'll take the former. If Lance had never won the tour, his Livestrong Foundation would still make him a hero for me. There are athletes like him, George Foreman, Roberto Clemente and many others who have done positive things with their fame and others like Tyson who have not. I salute those who have.

With everything happening, the tour was still a great event to watch - the scenery was a feast for the eyes. I sort of wished though that they made a race of the last day - that would have been some interesting watching.

montysc

I have heard some speculation that the conversation "overheard" about products that Lance used could have been about the things he was taking to recover from Chemo and cancer...He did have to take EPO and other products to get better. Certainly that is a known fact.

On the other hand - IF he was as clean as he claims, and the test results have shown over the years, he did have many teammates that later tested positive, or even admited to using doping products during his winning years - so the question might be is it cheating if your teammates are doping and assisting you to victory, even if you are clean?

I think that the sport is far ahead of the drug testing still and that many are doping still. I am looking forward to a cleaner sport, but I think it will take some time.

Take a look at Slipstream Sports - they are trying harder to be a clean team and move up the ladder - they just announced they have hired Christian Vandevelde, David Zabriskie & David Millar - so next year they are hoping to make it into the 2008 tour. They have a ton of young talented Americans who hopefully can step up and learn from the new big boys they signed.

PalenQ

The Chevreuse Valley (sp?) as usual on every last day it seems was stunning. Though i have ridden a bike over it myself before, many years ago, i didn't remember the stunning parade of chateaus and stately mansions lining this lovely, lovely valley of which you hear very little

For folks looking to drive south from paris to places like Loire this would be a great low-key but gorgeous escape route - ditto for bikers of course.

I've got to get out my Michelin atlas and track the valley again and read up on places like Dampierre (sp?)

This is why i've watched the tour as much as possible - the bucolic French countryside - the most pleasing in Europe IMO

Celticharper

I also love the tour and watching the French countryside is one of the best parts.

My hobby is photography so while my husband rides his bike around France I stalk the countryside and the villages of France for the secret great views and special vistas. I've been lucky enough to have some great shots framed to remember my special times in France.

I was so sorry not to be there this year, so next year for sure.

It's not that I believe Lance or any racer 105%, and I certainly don't believe there is not doping in cycling, but I hate the taint that seems to hover over the tour in particular and I would love for that to end. So it's just my feeling that using the testing & scientific means to determine this should be the best meansof determining the cheaters, not rumor and inuendo. Prove Lance or anyone else doped and I'll be the first to say strip them of their records and ban them permanently from the sport. No second chances, just out.

Oh does anybody want an CSC jersey autographed by Tyler Hamilton, it's going real cheap? No? I guess I'm stuck with that one then

PalenQ

I agree. And why is there never a serious French rider in contention - or team i should say?

seems weird as cycling is so popular here - spectatorwise and cycling itself.

Celticharper

That is sad, and I can't understand it, riding in France is wonderful. I would think that training there would be ideal.

I though it would be Thomas Voekler (I know he's not technically French)who would be the next great French rider, but reading an interview in L'equipe he admitted that he wasn't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to win the tour. I thought that was very honest of him, but still a little disheartening, that the tour wasn't as important to him as a career goal.

It seems as if the French riders are all second tier and just don't quite make it. I can't understand that at all.

PalenQ

who would have been the last great French rider - at least in terms of Tour de France type races?

Hinault was French but from Belgium i think. ditto Eddie Merkx (sp?) who Phil in front of Lance called the greatest Tour racer of all time.

Celticharper

Yes Eddie Mercks is universally considered the greatest cyclist of all time. Lance as great as his accomplishments are can't hold a candle to Mercks. And Lance is the first one to say that himself.

fnarf999

Eddie "The Cannibal" Merckx was a beast. He didn't win races like Armstrong; he demolished them. And he won hundreds of other races too, unlike Armstrong who focused exclusively on the Tour de France. He didn't have the luxury of that recuperation.

Check out some of these records: most victories, 525. Most victories in ONE SEASON: 54. Tour de France stage victories: 34. Days wearing yellow in the TdF: 96.

He did all this on what by today's standards were primitive bikes and no scientific training (diet, wind tunnel testing, blood analysis, etc.)

He tested positive for doping twice in his career.

BTW, Pal, it's Bob Roll who does the exaggerated "tooer day frannce", and he does it just to wind up the critics. He's actually fluent in French and lived there for a long time.

PalenQ

Oops - i've been saying Frankie all this time. Moi = idiot - id--e-oh

I thought it had to be exaggerated. Interesting. So Merckx is the all time King of the cycling. by acclamation it seems.