1 Year in Europe with Family
Jul 12th, 2016, 12:03 AM
#21
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One of the conditions of a long-term Schengen visa - be it 6 or 12 months - is that everyone must be covered by comprehensive health insurance which includes repatriation benefits. Ex-pat insurance varies in price and coverage, but there are a lot of choices on the internet.
Second, (assuming you'll choose France) when you apply to the regional French consulate, you must provide proof in the form of bank statements that you can support yourself and your family during the time you'll be in France. This means you must already have enough money in your accounts before you leave.
There are many other conditions which must be met before you arrive for your interview. Check the official government website for accurate information.
Third, You will have to provide proof to the Consulate (in the form of a paid rental contract) of residence in France. Renting long-term will require you to open a French bank account. Due to FATCA regulations, many banks refuse to do business with US citizens. You will need to research banks which deal with international clients.
A long-term lease might entail acquiring a "garantie" from a French bank, which agrees to set aside a year's rent in the event you don't pay the rent. This is not always accepted by rental agencies or individuals. Some people have succeeded in personally giving a year's rent to the agency or individual up front, but there are a number of problems with this, since it violates several laws.
You might search for housing options such as home swaps, if you would be open to someone else living in your home.
Otherwise, you can expect slim pickings, small spaces and high prices for housing your family, unless you settle in the suburbs.
Fourth, I'm not sold on the idea of home-schooling, since the idea of bringing your children to a foreign country is to immerse them in the culture. Getting your American children into a French public school is not a simple task - you'll have to apply long before you arrive. Investigate this on some ex-pat forums, or ask at an international school in your area.
Fifth, your wife will not be allowed to work legally in Europe unless she has a work permit before she arrives, which is nearly impossible to acquire. If she works in Europe, the money she earns will be taxed both in France and in the US, so she won't end up with much.
Sixth, get started in immersion classes as soon as you can, and stick with them. You won't speak perfect French when you arrive, and probably won't understand a lot of what you hear, but it will be the best option.
Second, (assuming you'll choose France) when you apply to the regional French consulate, you must provide proof in the form of bank statements that you can support yourself and your family during the time you'll be in France. This means you must already have enough money in your accounts before you leave.
There are many other conditions which must be met before you arrive for your interview. Check the official government website for accurate information.
Third, You will have to provide proof to the Consulate (in the form of a paid rental contract) of residence in France. Renting long-term will require you to open a French bank account. Due to FATCA regulations, many banks refuse to do business with US citizens. You will need to research banks which deal with international clients.
A long-term lease might entail acquiring a "garantie" from a French bank, which agrees to set aside a year's rent in the event you don't pay the rent. This is not always accepted by rental agencies or individuals. Some people have succeeded in personally giving a year's rent to the agency or individual up front, but there are a number of problems with this, since it violates several laws.
You might search for housing options such as home swaps, if you would be open to someone else living in your home.
Otherwise, you can expect slim pickings, small spaces and high prices for housing your family, unless you settle in the suburbs.
Fourth, I'm not sold on the idea of home-schooling, since the idea of bringing your children to a foreign country is to immerse them in the culture. Getting your American children into a French public school is not a simple task - you'll have to apply long before you arrive. Investigate this on some ex-pat forums, or ask at an international school in your area.
Fifth, your wife will not be allowed to work legally in Europe unless she has a work permit before she arrives, which is nearly impossible to acquire. If she works in Europe, the money she earns will be taxed both in France and in the US, so she won't end up with much.
Sixth, get started in immersion classes as soon as you can, and stick with them. You won't speak perfect French when you arrive, and probably won't understand a lot of what you hear, but it will be the best option.
Jul 12th, 2016, 12:27 AM
#22
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Visa issues aside, you definitely need to look into the legality of home schooling. For example, it is illegal in Germany but it looks like home schooling is legal in France but look into the T&C of it: https://www.angloinfo.com/france/how...home-schooling International schools are an option but they are EXPENSIVE.
Another not insignificant hurdle is opening a bank account. That is sure to be a massive PITA thanks to anti-money laundering laws and the US meddling in the banking affairs of other countries.
<i>If she works in Europe, the money she earns will be taxed both in France and in the US, so she won't end up with much.</i>
Not just her, but he may also be on the hook for paying taxes in both countries. You'll definitely want to hire someone like PWC to do your taxes.
Another not insignificant hurdle is opening a bank account. That is sure to be a massive PITA thanks to anti-money laundering laws and the US meddling in the banking affairs of other countries.
<i>If she works in Europe, the money she earns will be taxed both in France and in the US, so she won't end up with much.</i>
Not just her, but he may also be on the hook for paying taxes in both countries. You'll definitely want to hire someone like PWC to do your taxes.
Jul 12th, 2016, 01:00 AM
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Why not just stay 30 days in three different countries and treat it like a holiday.
Your 12 year old will be on the verge of high school - a very unsettling time anyway - and do you want her being schooled in another country with a completely different curriculum - only to come home and find she may have missed critical subjects or worse, have fallen behind.
If you do the 90 days during their summer vacation they may miss minimal school and you will save yourselves a bunch of money and endless paperwork.
Your 12 year old will be on the verge of high school - a very unsettling time anyway - and do you want her being schooled in another country with a completely different curriculum - only to come home and find she may have missed critical subjects or worse, have fallen behind.
If you do the 90 days during their summer vacation they may miss minimal school and you will save yourselves a bunch of money and endless paperwork.
Jul 12th, 2016, 01:02 AM
#25
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What I mean is - 30 x days in France, 30 days in Spain, 30 days in Italy - as an example. You still get the cultural immersion but don't have to deal with the laborious paperwork or spend a fortune.
Jul 12th, 2016, 01:20 AM
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Blueeyedcod presents a good suggestion.
This would avoid the paperwork and headaches, though I would definitely advise getting some health insurance before you leave.
You could presumably find lodging for 30 days (might be able to pay by credit card or bank draft) - worst case scenario, you could move every 2 weeks or so to another apartment - and if you take your children out of school for a few extra weeks, you could conceivably make an arrangement with the administration.
Check first regarding the regulations on short-term vacation rentals in any city you are considering. There are restrictions in Paris and Barcelona, for example, though you could definitely find vacation rentals more easily in the nearby suburbs.
This would avoid the paperwork and headaches, though I would definitely advise getting some health insurance before you leave.
You could presumably find lodging for 30 days (might be able to pay by credit card or bank draft) - worst case scenario, you could move every 2 weeks or so to another apartment - and if you take your children out of school for a few extra weeks, you could conceivably make an arrangement with the administration.
Check first regarding the regulations on short-term vacation rentals in any city you are considering. There are restrictions in Paris and Barcelona, for example, though you could definitely find vacation rentals more easily in the nearby suburbs.
Jul 12th, 2016, 01:41 AM
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Frankly, the administrative hullabaloo you'll need to go through for a mere 1-year stay in Europe would never, IMO, be worth it. We've been here way longer than a year, and we already owned a house in France and I have an Irish passport/citizenship that entitles me and my husband to be here, and we are STILL working through the paperwork. Oh, and we speak French, which has streamlined the process as much as it can be. Without that, I fear we'd be looking at about 5 years to complete everything.
Fuzzbucket has outlined most of the hurdles in detail. and others have added cogent details, but here's another one: almost every piece of paperwork (and trust me there will be dozens and dozens and dozens) will have to be translated and apostillé by a certified French translator. Every single one of them, even if only a page or so, will cost you a minimum of 60 euros. Every single one of them will likely entail waiting a few weeks for the translator to deliver. They will then have to be presented to your préfecture (or your notaire will have to handle them for you). Getting an appointment with the préfecture (or any number of the other administrative organizations you'll have to deal with), or waiting in line to see someone on the right days at the right time, can take several weeks. And each time you go, depending on whom you see, even if you have ticked off all the requirements the last person you saw gave you, something will be missing and you'll have to get it and go back.
Will you want to have a car? There's a whole new set of hurdles, which I won't explain here, but your options are essentially either rent/lease one at great expense for a year, or buy one and enter a whole new netherworld of documentation. If you won't have one, you have an entire lifetime's worth of learning about public transportation, train discounts, frequent flyer options on small airlines, and the often severe limitations on local bus service.
I could go on, but suffice it to say I think the suggestion to move around and make use of your exception visa (the 90-day rule) is a good one, with maybe another 30 days outside Schengen. Of course, that poses schooling problems. And renting problems. But it will still minimize to some extent your interactions with the French bureaucracy (or any other).
We don't, by the way, regret for a second our decision to move here. We knew it was a permanent move, however.I just cannot imagine making it anything less than a multi-year choice.
One last suggestion: sign up on the AngloInfo website. It's very heavily geared toward British subscribers, who have their own set of issues, particularly now. But follow some of the discussions and you'll soon see a litany of challenges, particularly from a population that rarely speaks fluent French. And keep in mind that Brits have historically had to deal with a good deal less expatriate documentation that you as Americans will.
Bon courage.
Fuzzbucket has outlined most of the hurdles in detail. and others have added cogent details, but here's another one: almost every piece of paperwork (and trust me there will be dozens and dozens and dozens) will have to be translated and apostillé by a certified French translator. Every single one of them, even if only a page or so, will cost you a minimum of 60 euros. Every single one of them will likely entail waiting a few weeks for the translator to deliver. They will then have to be presented to your préfecture (or your notaire will have to handle them for you). Getting an appointment with the préfecture (or any number of the other administrative organizations you'll have to deal with), or waiting in line to see someone on the right days at the right time, can take several weeks. And each time you go, depending on whom you see, even if you have ticked off all the requirements the last person you saw gave you, something will be missing and you'll have to get it and go back.
Will you want to have a car? There's a whole new set of hurdles, which I won't explain here, but your options are essentially either rent/lease one at great expense for a year, or buy one and enter a whole new netherworld of documentation. If you won't have one, you have an entire lifetime's worth of learning about public transportation, train discounts, frequent flyer options on small airlines, and the often severe limitations on local bus service.
I could go on, but suffice it to say I think the suggestion to move around and make use of your exception visa (the 90-day rule) is a good one, with maybe another 30 days outside Schengen. Of course, that poses schooling problems. And renting problems. But it will still minimize to some extent your interactions with the French bureaucracy (or any other).
We don't, by the way, regret for a second our decision to move here. We knew it was a permanent move, however.I just cannot imagine making it anything less than a multi-year choice.
One last suggestion: sign up on the AngloInfo website. It's very heavily geared toward British subscribers, who have their own set of issues, particularly now. But follow some of the discussions and you'll soon see a litany of challenges, particularly from a population that rarely speaks fluent French. And keep in mind that Brits have historically had to deal with a good deal less expatriate documentation that you as Americans will.
Bon courage.
Jul 12th, 2016, 05:12 AM
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<i> 1 Year in Europe with Family
Posted by: db613 on Jul 11, 16 at 3:08pm</i>
There is plenty of excellent seasoned advice in this thread. Here is more in a nutshell http://www.enjoy-europe.com/hte/chap22/moving.htm.
In your circumstances you would be better off to delay your move until you have the kids packed off to university. Then you and wife can go. This would give you another ten years to prepare for the daunting tasks ahead. But do pursue your dream. It is worth all the effort.
You can lessen the tribulations by getting a job with a company which will transfer you to Europe. But transfers typically are multi-year with a three year minimum. It doesn't pay to go for only one year. As mentioned above several times, your wife will not get a job in Europe.
Posted by: db613 on Jul 11, 16 at 3:08pm</i>
There is plenty of excellent seasoned advice in this thread. Here is more in a nutshell http://www.enjoy-europe.com/hte/chap22/moving.htm.
In your circumstances you would be better off to delay your move until you have the kids packed off to university. Then you and wife can go. This would give you another ten years to prepare for the daunting tasks ahead. But do pursue your dream. It is worth all the effort.
You can lessen the tribulations by getting a job with a company which will transfer you to Europe. But transfers typically are multi-year with a three year minimum. It doesn't pay to go for only one year. As mentioned above several times, your wife will not get a job in Europe.
Jul 12th, 2016, 06:08 AM
#30
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If you are employed maybe your employer can help you work out some long term work Visa.
My SIL (along eith his family, my DD and two kids - ages 7 and 11) worked for a year through a Fuulbright scholarship and then stayed an additional year for his sabbatical year.
They lived in Bergen, Norway. The cost of living is high but the quality of life is good especially for families. Public Education is free and the schools educate kids in both English and Norwegian. You can receive free medical care, it is a relatively safe place, clean, lots of outdoor activities, etc.
My SIL (along eith his family, my DD and two kids - ages 7 and 11) worked for a year through a Fuulbright scholarship and then stayed an additional year for his sabbatical year.
They lived in Bergen, Norway. The cost of living is high but the quality of life is good especially for families. Public Education is free and the schools educate kids in both English and Norwegian. You can receive free medical care, it is a relatively safe place, clean, lots of outdoor activities, etc.
Jul 12th, 2016, 06:15 AM
#31
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<i>If you are employed maybe your employer can help you work out some long term work Visa</i>
If his company doesn't have a presence in Europe, I don't see how that would even be possible. Besides, that could open the company up to all sorts of unintended expenditures.
If his company doesn't have a presence in Europe, I don't see how that would even be possible. Besides, that could open the company up to all sorts of unintended expenditures.
Jul 12th, 2016, 06:33 AM
#32
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Sparkchase is right. U.S. companies that do not have European branches will not normally approve of employees working in Europe; even if the employee was approved to work 'remotely' (out of their own home in the USA). If the employee worked out of their own home in Europe for the U.S. company or client, this would require the U.S. company to adhere to many different European corporate employment laws, including social security and tax registration.
I think the dream is a great one, but having moved to France and dealt with several different Visa applications - first being in 2001 when things were relatively simple, compared to now - second one being a Visa regroupement familial (due to VISA laws changing in France), I can tell you the hoops are enormous. That is just the VISA issue itself. It isn't impossible, but it isn't easy now.
The bank, health insurance, tax declaration, obtaining a rental as a foreigner and last but not least the education issues are major hurdles.
I agree that if you can put this off until your children are heading to University, you 'might' find it easier. Who knows as laws change along the way and no one can predict the future.
For now, I would recommend researching the bank regulations for non-EU individuals in France, tax regulations for same, get a price for family health insurance to give you an idea of what to expect as you'll have to prove you all have insurance, and get the details on renting in France as a non-EU. This will take you some time to get the facts, but it should be very eye opening, which, I think, is what you're after.
Good luck !
Oh and the spending 3 months in France prior to making such a big decision (long term), is an excellent one.
I think the dream is a great one, but having moved to France and dealt with several different Visa applications - first being in 2001 when things were relatively simple, compared to now - second one being a Visa regroupement familial (due to VISA laws changing in France), I can tell you the hoops are enormous. That is just the VISA issue itself. It isn't impossible, but it isn't easy now.
The bank, health insurance, tax declaration, obtaining a rental as a foreigner and last but not least the education issues are major hurdles.
I agree that if you can put this off until your children are heading to University, you 'might' find it easier. Who knows as laws change along the way and no one can predict the future.
For now, I would recommend researching the bank regulations for non-EU individuals in France, tax regulations for same, get a price for family health insurance to give you an idea of what to expect as you'll have to prove you all have insurance, and get the details on renting in France as a non-EU. This will take you some time to get the facts, but it should be very eye opening, which, I think, is what you're after.
Good luck !
Oh and the spending 3 months in France prior to making such a big decision (long term), is an excellent one.
Jul 12th, 2016, 07:25 AM
#33
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What you are interpreting as hostility by our fellow posters is actually the presentation of a realistic picture of all that is involved to move your family to Europe. It will cost you more money than you plan and will be much more involved, though not impossible, than you anticipate.
We moved to Paris from the US about 4 years ago with our school aged daughter. Here are several observation which may be of help.
1. Your wife will not be able to find legal work.
2. Your children will be accepted into the French school system. Some schools, in larger cities, will have some classes in English. The most difficult situation will be that of a 12 year old who will be entering into 6eme or basically jr high school both socially and academically. It will be very challenging if not a sizeable burden for him/her not being fluent in French. There are a number of private English schools available but only in larger cities.
3. I would plan on prepaying a year's rent for housing. To be able to open a bank account, you will need a signed housing contract and a long stay visa in your passport.
4. The first year using a long stay visa requires a number of visits to the OFII. Being very far away from Paris or a larger city will mean a number of trips for administrative purposes. It might be very difficult to obtain a long stay visa without some definitive address where you plan on staying. The consulate may not approve a plan of being a month here and a month somewhere else of a plan of constantly changing addresses.
5. Your driver's license will only be good for 3 months after which you must obtain a French license. France has a reciprocity agreement with a few US states. Otherwise, obtaining a French license is a costly and complicated procedure.
6. You might have health insurance already that will reimburse foreign medical expenses. If you do, you will need a statement from your insurer, in French, that explains this coverage. Otherwise you will need to purchase coverage.
7. You will also need to carry liability insurance both as a renter and as a parent with children in school. The school will ask for proof of liability insurance for any potential damage which may be caused by your children.
8. I don't think that your working in the US will be as big a problem as others have suggested, particularly if you can prove to the consulate that you have sufficient funds to cover basic expenses from savings. As long as you receive no money via any French company, your work remains basically US based, and your income accounts all remain in the USA, you should not have a income liability in France.
I worked for a period of time in the US after I had moved to France without ever paying French income taxes. All income taxes where paid in the USA where I worked.
Overall, living in a foreign country is a very enriching experience and well worth the effort in overcoming the numerous obstacles which you will certainly encounter. Most people let their employers handle the myriad requirements. If you attempt it on your own, you probably will need help and you'll definitely need help if you are not yourself a capable French speaker.
We moved to Paris from the US about 4 years ago with our school aged daughter. Here are several observation which may be of help.
1. Your wife will not be able to find legal work.
2. Your children will be accepted into the French school system. Some schools, in larger cities, will have some classes in English. The most difficult situation will be that of a 12 year old who will be entering into 6eme or basically jr high school both socially and academically. It will be very challenging if not a sizeable burden for him/her not being fluent in French. There are a number of private English schools available but only in larger cities.
3. I would plan on prepaying a year's rent for housing. To be able to open a bank account, you will need a signed housing contract and a long stay visa in your passport.
4. The first year using a long stay visa requires a number of visits to the OFII. Being very far away from Paris or a larger city will mean a number of trips for administrative purposes. It might be very difficult to obtain a long stay visa without some definitive address where you plan on staying. The consulate may not approve a plan of being a month here and a month somewhere else of a plan of constantly changing addresses.
5. Your driver's license will only be good for 3 months after which you must obtain a French license. France has a reciprocity agreement with a few US states. Otherwise, obtaining a French license is a costly and complicated procedure.
6. You might have health insurance already that will reimburse foreign medical expenses. If you do, you will need a statement from your insurer, in French, that explains this coverage. Otherwise you will need to purchase coverage.
7. You will also need to carry liability insurance both as a renter and as a parent with children in school. The school will ask for proof of liability insurance for any potential damage which may be caused by your children.
8. I don't think that your working in the US will be as big a problem as others have suggested, particularly if you can prove to the consulate that you have sufficient funds to cover basic expenses from savings. As long as you receive no money via any French company, your work remains basically US based, and your income accounts all remain in the USA, you should not have a income liability in France.
I worked for a period of time in the US after I had moved to France without ever paying French income taxes. All income taxes where paid in the USA where I worked.
Overall, living in a foreign country is a very enriching experience and well worth the effort in overcoming the numerous obstacles which you will certainly encounter. Most people let their employers handle the myriad requirements. If you attempt it on your own, you probably will need help and you'll definitely need help if you are not yourself a capable French speaker.
Jul 12th, 2016, 08:05 AM
#34
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Yup, however this thead looks like all the reasons needed to not do it.
As Yazoo said it : Don't go !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLTGs4fqxBk
So my advice would be for Db to play the deaf frog.
http://michel.buze.perso.neuf.fr/bea...lle_sourde.htm
The translation is marginally better than googletranslate.
As Yazoo said it : Don't go !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLTGs4fqxBk
So my advice would be for Db to play the deaf frog.
http://michel.buze.perso.neuf.fr/bea...lle_sourde.htm
The translation is marginally better than googletranslate.
Jul 12th, 2016, 09:12 AM
#35
<do not understand is the negativity in some of these responses as if I've committed a crime or something. It is bizarre.>
I think you are misreading the replies. It's just that your dream of living in Europe for a year as originally presented was missing basically ALL reality checks.
Now with the information provided here, you have an outline of what it would take (legal paperwork, visas, health insurance, schooling, finances and banking, taxes, etc.), what likely won't happen (your wife being allowed to work/find a job), what you could and should do in advance (language intensives), etc.
I think you are misreading the replies. It's just that your dream of living in Europe for a year as originally presented was missing basically ALL reality checks.
Now with the information provided here, you have an outline of what it would take (legal paperwork, visas, health insurance, schooling, finances and banking, taxes, etc.), what likely won't happen (your wife being allowed to work/find a job), what you could and should do in advance (language intensives), etc.
Jul 12th, 2016, 09:45 AM
#37
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If you opt to try and pull this off as a perpetual tourist (90 days in Schengen, 180 days in UK, 90 days in Schengen), you should know that the countries will take a dim view of you working full time in their country without authorization, regardless of whether your work is "there" or in the "U.S.". I had an acquaintance get into trouble for that.
Jul 12th, 2016, 09:57 AM
#39
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Also, if you plan to work (in any capacity) while in France, be sure to read the rules of a long stay Visa. With the application for a Long Stay Visa, we were required to sign an Attestation stating we would not work in France for a certain period of time. We were also asked to sign an Attestation stating we would not attempt to collect any governmental aid.
We had to provide the same Attestations to the OFII upon arrival to France. This in addition to a bucket load of other 'stuff.' If you end up staying longer than one year, do not throw away any of your officially translated documents (birth certificates, marriage certificates, vaccination/health certificates); you will be asked to present those annually for a certain period of time - before you can apply for a 10 year residency card.
We had to provide the same Attestations to the OFII upon arrival to France. This in addition to a bucket load of other 'stuff.' If you end up staying longer than one year, do not throw away any of your officially translated documents (birth certificates, marriage certificates, vaccination/health certificates); you will be asked to present those annually for a certain period of time - before you can apply for a 10 year residency card.
Jul 12th, 2016, 11:03 AM
#40
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As most of the previous posters have said, it is a very difficult process and there are lots of hurdles/challenges to consider.
A couple of suggestions/thoughts
Look for a US expat forum. like www.expatforum.com I am sure there are other forums out there.
Does your company have a European office? If so, perhaps talk to your company about overseas opportunities.
Do you or your wife qualify for any type of EU citizenship through familiy members? Research the requirements for citizenship through descent if either your wifes or your family immigrated from an EU country in the last generation or so. Each country has their own requirements for citizenship by descent. Most involving a ton of paperwork. If you qualify and get citizenship from a EU member state, you would bypass the 90 day limit. But there will be other implications, like mandatory military registration/service in some countries. You'll need to research that as well.
I wouldn't limit yourself to French speaking destinations because you live near and visit Montreal. You can get along in Montreal speaking English just fine.
A couple of suggestions/thoughts
Look for a US expat forum. like www.expatforum.com I am sure there are other forums out there.
Does your company have a European office? If so, perhaps talk to your company about overseas opportunities.
Do you or your wife qualify for any type of EU citizenship through familiy members? Research the requirements for citizenship through descent if either your wifes or your family immigrated from an EU country in the last generation or so. Each country has their own requirements for citizenship by descent. Most involving a ton of paperwork. If you qualify and get citizenship from a EU member state, you would bypass the 90 day limit. But there will be other implications, like mandatory military registration/service in some countries. You'll need to research that as well.
I wouldn't limit yourself to French speaking destinations because you live near and visit Montreal. You can get along in Montreal speaking English just fine.
