Patty

Just FYI for anyone planning to stay at Half Moon Resort in Montego Bay. They are currently developing a dolphin attraction to be open Feb 1st. We will NOT be considering this property for any future stays.

John

Patty,<BR><BR>It's obvious that you are very against the idea of Swim w/ the dolphins programs, which is totally fine as we are all entitled to our opinions. But why would you direct your post towards a specific resort? Just because they are going to do something you don't believe in, should someone not stay there for other reasons? Not quite sure I understand the point of your post. If you have an opinion about the dolphin swim programs fine, but why try and deter others from a potentially nice resort?

Nancy

Thanks, Patty, for the heads up. I do not even consider staying at places that have a SWTD program. It saves me research time when pointed out to me.<BR>John, I think Patty's post was intended to give people info (that's what this board is all about, after all).<BR>The headline of her post made it just as easy for people who ARE wanting a SWTD attraction to get more info as people who ARE NOT.<BR>She made her view on it clear (as do I), and people make up their own minds as to what is right and what is wrong.<BR><BR>

Brian

To John:<BR>As a consumer you have the ability to shape your world. You vote with your wallet every time you make any type of purchase.<BR>I could not be more supportive of Patty's position on this.<BR>Those dolphin programs are about as cruel as any animal welfare issue I can think of in the industrialized world.<BR><BR>Go ahead and support them if you wish.<BR>That's definitely your right.<BR><BR>But if you KNEW what was going on in those programs, I doubt you'd feel the same as you do now, unless you're just not put off by cruelty in general.

Patty

John,<BR>I posted this so others can make an informed decision regarding whether to stay at Half Moon. I was considering Half Moon myself a few months ago but ultimately decided to stay elsewhere (before I found out about the dolphin program). Had I already booked a future stay at Half Moon, I would be very unhappy at this time. So for those who may feel the same way that I do regarding these programs, I wanted to get the word out so that no one is surprised. I just heard about it this morning and doing a quick search of Half Moon's own site I could not find any mention of a dolphin program. The news article is located here for anyone wishing to read it:<BR><BR>http://www.twcrossroads.com/news/newswrapper.asp?ArticleID=35650&amp;Keyword=Hotel< BR><BR>Don't you think everyone is entitled to make a decision based on any new information that's available? I mentioned my own opinion because 1.) I personally would have been quite disappointed if I had already booked Half Moon and 2.)sooner or later someone would have asked.

John

I think a few of you may of missed my point. I did not post in favor of the dolphin encounters. I guess I'm curious as to whether or not any resort that offeres this program should be put out of business? Harming or potentially harming an entire resort based on whether or not they offer a certain activity, is what I'm questioning. Should any and all resorts that offer this activity be banned or put out of business? Shouldn't the fight against this practice be fought against this practice, and not the entire resort? Just seems as if innocent people could be hurt without even knowing it.

Nancy

John,<BR>Many/most resorts get along quite well without offering a SWTD program. <BR>Patty, Brian and I do what little we can to help by not going to places that have them, and by giving the info to anyone else who might want to avoid them.<BR>Until companies are sent a message that it's not an acceptable practice, and people will actually avoid their property because it is offered there, the SWTD practice will continue.<BR>Most people do not realize how horrific this is for the animals, and you will hear over and over again, &quot;but they seemed happy to me.&quot; It's what goes on behind the scenes of ALL of these places that makes them so bad.<BR>The tourists never see this part of it.<BR>

Patty

&lt;Shouldn't the fight against this practice be fought against this practice, and not the entire resort?&gt; <BR><BR>Isn't it the decision of the owners and/or management of the resort to implement this program? I can fight this practice by writing to the resort management to express my views and choosing not to spend my money there. How would you choose to fight this practice if, hypothetically speaking, you were against it (without affecting the resort)?

John

Patty,<BR><BR>I'm not sure how'd I'd fight that battle. I would however try and make sure those who are not involved directly, are not affected. Targeting the owners would certainly seem like a logical start. I guess I'm thinking about the people who work at the resort who would be out of work should the resort go under. Certainly not fair in my eyes. <BR><BR>I'd honestly like to read more about the subject of dolhin swims. Are there any suggestions for good reading based on facts, and NOT opinions? I don't know what really happens behind the scenes, but would love to know more. Most of what I read here about it seems to be based more on opinion, hence my request for factual reading material. Thanks in advance for any help.

Nancy

John,<BR>Thanks for your interest in educating yourself on this topic...<BR><BR>http://dolphinproject.org/ <BR><BR>http://www.hsus.org/ace/11727<BR><BR>(The second site is the Humane Society of the United States' position on SWTD programs.)<BR>

Patty

Here is another site that has information on captive dolphin programs:<BR><BR>http://www.pacificwhale.org/alerts/dolphin_info.html<BR><BR>Of course, even scientific facts are subject to interpretation so ultimately, we each have to make our own decisions.

John

Patty,Nancy,<BR>I read a lot of the info on those websites that were provided by Nancy. Interesting reading, but certainly predictable from the dolphin-project.org folks. This is a group against the practice of dolphins in captivity. I'm not bashing them at all, just saying, that I wasn't expecting any pro's other than cons from this website. I would be interested in some unbiased opinions on the subject.<BR><BR>I am also curious as to the opinions of others who are against the SWTD programs on other animals in captivity. Such as circus animals, zoo animals, and even domestic pets like horses, dogs, etc. Should all of these animals be set free as well? Should we ban the circus? Close all the zoos? Again, not trying to start a war, just very curious as to what others think about these issues. I'm guessing if you oppose SWTD programs, than you would also oppose the circus, zoos, and other domestic animals? Please don't turn this thread nasty, I am truely curious as to why people feel the way they do on this subject. <BR><BR>Nancy,<BR>Thankyou for the websites you provided, but like I said before, those site are biased, which is okay. I am just interested in reading more of an unbiased opinion, that might have other facts. There's always the other side, and I'd like to be educated about both.

Nancy

Hi again John,<BR>It might be hard to find unbiased opinions about this topic. I thought the Humane Society came about as close as possible to that. I feel both sites give a lot of easily-substantiated facts and figures. <BR>It's up to the individual to determine whether or not participating in them is offensive. <BR>I'm embarassed to say I did an open ocean dive with a captive dolphin, and the experience was degrading and horrible. I'd never do anything like it again, and I'm vocal about telling people that.<BR>It's all about choices, and living with them.<BR>If after learning more, you (or anyone) still wants to do it, that's your decision.

Patty

John,<BR>If you go to the site I listed, there's a link to a Frontline report that does have arguments from both sides. I think it's almost impossible to find any person, organization, or other source which is totally unbiased and objective. I'm not trying to start a war either and as far as my views on other animals in captivity, the ones I find most unsettling are the totally for-profit ventures such as dolphin swim programs and circuses. I do not go as far as some of these organizations that believe ALL currently captive animals should be set free, but I don't believe any new capture should take place. There are certainly some problems with returning them to the wild as most visibly seen with Keiko. Next are the quasi-research/conservation organizations such as zoos and aquariums. While I think there are some zoos that have excellent conservation/rehabilitation/re-introduction programs, there are probably far more that are for amusement purposes only. I'm really torn as far as domestic animals/pets. I have pets and again you can't just set them loose once they have become dependent on you. I've purchased one pet from a pet store before and will never do that again. My other pets are all rescues, strays, or from shelters. This is a tough one for me as what do you do with them since we've essentially taken away many of their natural survival skills and made them dependent on us (although there are some theories that say dogs and cats 'domesticated' themselves for mutual benefit). I honestly don't know the solution to that one.

mrs kravitz

I have never been to a SWTD program, nor am I a marine biologist, so my thoughts on this are just guesses. I understand that the &quot;antis&quot; are against dolphins being in captivity, which does seem a cruel fate for intelligent creatures. It seems to me that dolphins already in captivity (professionals, correct me if I'm wrong) are now dependent and can't be set free to fend for themselves. <BR><BR>I have a hard time believing that the staff members of these types of programs don't love the animals and do all in their power to stimulate the mental activity of them. I also have to wonder how many people that would not have otherwise given a second thought to dolphin welfare have been awakened to a love of them as a result of having swum with them. What do you think, people?

Brian

Mrs Kravits: You could not be more wrong.<BR>Where you'll tend (usually...not always) to find caring animal handlers and humane treatment is in well funded zoos and such. I know of some sad exceptions, but those are usually professional animal caretakers.<BR><BR>The resorts are only after maximum $$, and since no one really watches over their shoulders (unlike at a city zoo where public funds support the facility, giving overseers right to access and scrutiny) they have no compelling reason to provide quality care or well trained caretakers for their animals.<BR>Use 'em and lose 'em is the rule.

mrs kravitz

Wow -- how sad. It had seemed to me such an innocent thing. I was thinking of going down to Orlando just to go to Discovery Cove and swim with dolphins. Now I don't think so.<BR><BR>Nancy at beeziltwink, I would really like to hear more from you since you said you did an open ocean dive with a dolphin and it was &quot;horrible and degrading&quot;. Maybe you could elaborate for us. And what about aquariums? Is that as bad? For the record, have always thought the circus was just awful, but zoos were ok. Double standard? Maybe. For anyone who's counting responses, I believe in keeping domestic animals. All of my dogs are former [strays] free spirits that can leave any time they want but don't. Cats -- I hate cats. If there were a resort with a swim with the cats program I would not hesitate to give them my tourist dollar.

xxxx

thinking that most zoos and facilities similiar have an interest in preserving or at least educating people and are often repositories for injured or wounded wild animals and are seldom for profit. Some zoos are reknown for their birth records for endangered species and maintaining an environment that is a replica or close to the native environment. They normally do not not withhold food until the animal performs and then give it a treat to reinforce a conditioned behavior. Nor do they pocket the proceeds in the name of profit. A dolphin goes for about $40,000 untrained I hear and is captured for the sole amusement of the fee payers notwithstanding those programs that say they are &quot;educational&quot; or &quot;research&quot; organizations. The exhibits such as the white tiger which was caged in Aruba and others including the dolphin parks and circuses are nothing short of animal abuse imo. I have been fortunate enough to have be in the water with dolphin in the wild and would not trade that experience for one where an animal is exploited to please the paying guests for any amount of money. <BR>It is not well known but dolphin can and do become aggressive and there have been serious injury not only when swimming with them in the wild but because they are contained in what is usually slightly larger than a pool and not much deeper, seperated from their pod with those paying guests. I do not have any pets. Animals are living things and not toys put on the earth for convience of humans. <BR>

Nancy

Mrs. Kravitz,<BR>To answer your question, for several years, I had wanted to do a dolphin swim, but my conscience kept telling me not to. I too looked at the Dolphin Discovery in the Fl. Keys as a possibility because they touted it as so &quot;educational.&quot; Then I found out what kind of habitat they live in and decided against it.<BR>In about 1993 or 1994, we went to the Bahamas as newly certified divers excited to try our newfound skills.<BR>A world-reknowned outfit called UNEXSO is who we chose to dive with, and one of the dives was the $150 pp dolphin dive. I picked it because it was in the open ocean, and we were told the &quot;dolphins could leave anytime they chose.&quot;<BR>The dolphins were kept in teeny tiny pens in brackish water, and one was let loose to follow us to the dive site.<BR>Well, they crammed about 35 of us on this boat, and we sat in a circle on the bottom in 40' of water while the dolphin was directed to do embarassing tricks for and with us. By embarassing, I mean &quot;kiss&quot; us, and turn us around in a circle using the end of his nose. For each of these tricks, the dolphin was fed frozen fish, and it was obviously VERY hungry. <BR>I was eye to eye with this animal, and closely observed it, and it did not appear to be interested in anything but the food. <BR>I could hardly wait for the experience to end, and would never do it again. We have a videotape of the dive, and I cringe when family or friends say they want to see it.<BR>We just got back from Provo, where we were fortunate enough to see the resident dolphin Jojo. He swam directly up to the catamaran we were on and came up out of the water to look at us. He swam under us, leaped into the air and disappeared.<BR>That 10 seconds was worth far more to me than the 45 minutes I spent to degrade what should be a wild animal.<BR>I've got more stories of the things I've personally seen at these programs should anyone be interested...<BR>

Deborah

I too did a dolphin swim at Discovery Cove in Fl. For 20 years I had dreamed of this experience. I now totally regret that I did it. I agree with Nancy, it was all about food for the dolphin and $$$$ for Discovery Cove. <BR><BR>After we left Orlando we went to Sanibel where we had several encounters with true wild dolphins. That was so much more exciting. Swimming in the gulf with them feeding a few feet away. Being on the boat and they would jump the waves! There were just being themselves then and I'd have to say those experiences have been a highlight for me. While I look back at the hours I spent in Discovery Cove with much regret.