Peter_S_Aus

I’m surprised that anyone would see our food prices as outrageous.

We live, like it or not, in a private enterprise system, a free market system, and so businesses will charge what the market will stand, or will charge what they think the market will stand. No Vietnamese café will attempt to charge $20 for a bowl of pho soup – the market norm is about $8.50. The Flower Drum restaurant in Melbourne can charge $30 for a plate of dim-sum that any other Chinese restaurant will sell for about ten bucks. The Flower Drum is not going broke – the market will bear that charge.

Businesses that get it wrong – either because they charge too much, or offer food that people don’t want much to buy – quickly find themselves without patrons. The late, and totally unlamented, Krispy Kreme found themselves in this position, and is broke, as people could buy better doughnuts elsewhere for less.

Starbucks misread the Australian market, and came up with this coffee lounge business model, encouraging people to buy a lousy coffee after making a choice from twenty different types of coffee (I’ll have a grande decaf half soy half yak milk latte with cinnamon on top, please). After buying the coffee for three or four bucks, served in a cardboard cup, the patron would then recline on a Starbucks sofa (free), read a newspaper (free), and surf the internet (free), all costing Starbucks a packet. But if you wanted decent coffee or did not care for a Starbucks cookie, then you went elsewhere. So Starbucks doesn’t work in Aus, but in America it is most successful.

The fact is that in Aus, we do eating out differently to the USA. Portions are smaller, doggie bags are unknown, and the price on the menu is the price. We don’t have ten different servers.

Hi, I’m Karen, I’ll take your coat.
Good evening, I’m Eddie, I’ll be your water boy this evening.
Great to see you, I’m Jack, I’m in charge of bread. Charlie will see to your butter needs.
Hey guys, I’m Chas. Unsalted, salted, goats milk, elephant milk or cows milk butter for the table? Robert will make with some ghee should it be needed.
Bon soir, I’m Robert, the head waiter. I don’t wait tables; I just keep the other folks in line, and give stern looks to anyone who looks like being stingy with the tips. Oh, and I do ghee.
Woof, I’m Fido. I will attend to the doggie bag needs of the table, and provide a bucket for that stupidly large spaghetti dish that we’ve given you, so that you think that you’ve received good value.

We don’t have so many chain restaurants as are found in the States, and very few “all you can eat” places – in fact I can’t think of one. We don’t do bottomless cups of lousy coffee – if you want a decent coffee then you buy each coffee, and it will cost you about $3.20.

Different – yes.
Outrageous – I don’t think so.

Melnq8

<“all you can eat” places – in fact I can’t think of one">

I know of just one here in Perth - Miss Maud's Swedish Smorgasbord - $39.95 for lunch.

margo_oz

Mel

"I'd much prefer if businesses paid their staff better, and just included a service charge and tax in the price quoted. "

Spoken like a true Australian!

Maybe there is some hope for us - if Krispy Kreme is going broke, as much an offence to the English language as to waistlines!

Clifton

After a year of living in Melbourne, and 10 years before that living in Memphis, I'd compare the two by saying that at the current 1:1 exchange (or earning in Aussie dollars), that eating out costs maybe 50% more.

Yes, there are exceptions. My favorite Vietnamese place is $7.80 for a bowl of pho and that's about what I paid in Memphis. But on average, what I'd pay for a chicken sandwich at a small cafe near the suburban grocery is more than it would be if you bought it from O'Charleys or Chilis. Now to me, that makes perfect sense. Most places that are isolated cost more... and big corporations - which is 90% or more of what is available in the suburban US - have ways to cut costs. Often that cost cutting shows, by the way. But not always. Lazy Moe's down the street here is cheaper too and it shows there as well.

I agree that one shouldn't come looking to match either foods or experiences when traveling. Don't go looking for the Olive Garden to avoid the top end Italian place. Don't get sucked in because they have ribs ont he menu and something familiar just sounds good right now. That way lies heartbreak (or heartburn). Go Greek family-run joint. Poke into a bakery and while sorting out whether they've got the perfect bagel (likes mine w/ butter, but otherwise, don't give up on 'em) - instead maybe turn to the warm case at the end and try a meat pie or sausage roll. That's the Aussie stuff. Yes... the cheese situation here is a bit dire, IMO. So's pizza in my opinion - that's my old sawhorse. But then, the fish and chips are horrendous in the US and a fair bit of Europe as well.

IMO, I think there's a lot of proof that the "how do we get what we want cheaper" approach to running a country has it's pitfalls. For what that's worth. I too like the idea that when a person is working because of me, that they're being paid like anyone else doing an honest day's work. Said as an American...

And - living here, you soon realize it's not only your own country that can produce loud, self-centered louts. Yours are just more likely to cause a cringe when they surface next to you in some far away place.

Libretto

Clifford, as always you're the voice of reason. Your calm and fair responses are always interesting and totally lacking in the knee jerk "American exceptionalism" defensiveness often exhibited on this forum.

Clifton

Well thanks Libretto. I can assure you, it's not "always".. and depending on the subject, I can be very unreasonable. But this one seems clear that the entire country isn't charging $24 for a hamburger... nor is someone completely crazy to notice that the prices in the sort of restaurants they would be walking into in many of their travels are higher than they're used to. But in comparing two large countries, one with millions of acres of corn and wheat and grazing fields... and the other with an interior of deserts... surely it can't be a huge surprise that the one with less food charges somewhat more for it.

pat_woolford

I cannot believe this thread has gone to over 100 responses until someone pointed out the bleeding obvious. Thank you Clifton!

wlzmatilida

Hi,

Other Mel: re: "Why should the waiter who brings you a steak get a bigger tip than the waiter who brings you a salad?" Er...usually the same person's doing both. Have you been gone that long? Nah....you might have a bus boy bringing you water and taking empty plates, but it's usually the waiter who takes the order, brings each course, and gives you the check.

Pat - you've made my whole day re: Krispy Kreme -- I know about Starbucks - a whole bunch of them went under; I think there's something like 4 of them in Sydney now? Is that right Sydneysiders? (vs. Seattle with

Peter: HYSTERICAL! I think I've met Robert the Head Waiter (but I didn't order the ghee).

Clifton - yes, the voice of reason...can we all agree that Australia is not the Land of the $24 Hamburger? (that would be TAHITI -- just thought I'd stir up new trouble with that!) Well pointed out Pat!

Melodie

Melnq8

You misunderstood me Melodie, I was referring to the percentage system, the 'norm' you refer to. Generally, the less expensive the purchase, the smaller the tip, although the service is the same. A waiter serving a salad isn't working any less than a waiter serving a steak, yet the waiter with the steak gets the higher tip, due to the price difference and percentage system. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

shandy

Clifton, thanks for your well reasoned comments, a voice of sanity amongst some of the over the top posts. I wouldn't expect anything less from you.

I am curious though about your comments on the dire cheese situation here. One of the other posters mentioned it as well. I really don't know much about cheese in the States (my experience has been limited to cheese in a McDonalds burger or Wendy'sm neither of which I considered 'real' cheese) so have no idea what they have to offer but with the plethora of Australian and imported cheeses at the local good deli or market (as against the supermarket) what are we missing that you look for. As someone who loves cheese, is there a whole world of chesses out there that I haven't been exposed to yet.

Clifton

shandy, I guess on the cheese front, the difference for me would just be the availability and price. I understand both issues, of course, but was used to being able to have a fairly wide selection of styles and sources for cheese at a relatively low cost right at the supermarket. Whereas one might have to go around a bit and pay quite a lot for, say, a nice French cheese of some sort. Anything that says "imported" here I think, by necessity, goes through a gauntlet that's far more severe - and costly - than that of imported items in most of the developed world.

And a lot of times, I'm not the sort that is really looking for the fussy, special occasion cheeses. I'd just like to be able to pick up a little Monterey Jack or Queso Blanco, etc to go with a dinner dish while I'm shopping at times. Even the variety of cheddars are less abundant, which with the British heritage, surprised me a bit. But so you plan around that sort of thing and come up with something else. Cheese isn't exactly kind to your waistline anyway... Not an issue at all really, it's little things you miss at times.

Melnq8

<my experience has been limited to cheese in a McDonalds burger or Wendy's neither of which I considered 'real' cheese>

That's not cheese, shandy, it's processed orange goo that goes by the insulting name of American cheese. Awful stuff and right up there with Bush when it comes to national embarrassments.

stormbird

I am not a cheese eater at all but I think I see what you might be saying Clifton. When we were in Tours in France we were at a local supermarket and honestly they practically had an entire aisle devoted to nothing but cheese! I couldn't believe it.

My DH loves cheese (to go with his red wine and his darn tinned oysters in BBQ sauce - yuk yuk and double yuk)anyway, I often have his cheese on my shopping list and really there isn't a large VARIETY in the supermarket that I can see. There may be a lot of different brands in the same style of cheese but variety seems to be fairly basic I would say. I'm always hoping to find something different to take home for him but there isn't a lot really is there?

Having lived overseas myself for 4 years, some time ago, I perfectly understand that <<it's the little things you miss>>.
One place didn't even have fresh milk - oh man we really missed that and od'd on milkshakes when we got back. But my DH will still have milk with flavouring with his dinner sometimes. Mmm I'm rambling sorry!

ivenotbeeneverywhere

Tasmanian cheese, and to be absolutely correct, King Island cheese is as close as anyone can get to French cheese - that is if we are talking about real cheese and not the stuff that tastes and looks like cardboard.
The process and the making of really good cheese takes a lot of time, money and expertise and that is why good cheese costs quite a bit but then again so does the bottle of good wine that goes with it. Its not out of range price wise and is a wonderful snack any time of the day.

Clifton

I understand stormbird. Next time I go back to visit in the US, once I get past the scanners ... I am probably going to live on slow cooked ribs and Mexican food until it's time to come home. I cook... or try to cook... Mexican food from time to time, and it's there that the cheeses I use for cooking are missed most. And - every time I hear "milkshake" here, I perk up a bit.. until I realize you all mean flavoured milk. Which I like, as one would.. but for me, the term means what you call "thick shakes" here.

Btw, I had the same response you had to the cheese aisle the first time I walked down the aisle at Coles with the baked beans and tinned spaghetti!

I do notice here around Melbourne the influence of Greece and Holland. Seems our supermarket alternatives to "tasty" (a variety of Cheddar, yes?) are frequently Aussie made Gouda and Edam, along with some feta cheeses.

Good tip on the Tasmanian King Island cheese, thanks. I'll keep an eye out for that.

Trav_Eller

Clifton, a tip for cheeses. I love good cheeses - blue, camembert, brie - you name it - and ours are some of the best (I've also eaten cheeses all over Europe). Especially Tassie and King Island cheeses, but there are several others on the east coast.

Yes, they can be expensive.

But our bureaucrats, bless their hearts, have decreed that all perishable foods must have a use-by date and cannot be sold after that date. For some reason the use-by dates are often at the peak ripening time for those lovely softer cheeses. A couple of days before the use-by they send junior clerks around the supermarket shelves reducing the prices by incredible amounts to make sure they aren't on the shelves after the use-by date when they become legally unsellable.

Watch for those cheeses with discount stickers in Coles, Woolies and IGA. I have a constant supply in my fridge of wonderful King Island, Tassie and South-coast NSW cheeses at less than half-price at the peak of flavour and texture.

If you want international cheeses and other deli items look for the suburban ethnic suburbs. I don't know about Sydney, but the Coburg shopping centre on Sydney Road, Melbourne, a 15-20 minute #19 tram ride from the CBD, has a wonderful array of international foods at excellent prices.

stormbird

<<Btw, I had the same response you had to the cheese aisle the first time I walked down the aisle at Coles with the baked beans and tinned spaghetti!>>

That's a real crack up Clifton. LOL but I have to confess that baked beans are the shopping list for DH as well - personally I can't stand them - and now my sons partner lives with us she eats a lot of baked beans as well. Oh but she mixes them up with melted cheese and HP sauce - eek.They two of them compare baked bean notes and the many ways they can be eaten. Mmmm you want baked beans - you get your own.

I'm glad your experiences here are entertaining for you Clifton - it stops you from getting bored.

nelsonian

Interesting about the cheeses. My daughter who has been living in the US, misses NZ cheese, and says you cannot buy a block of tasty cheddar in the US like you can here. She has been back visiting for a couple of weeks and can't get enough of the cheese. She is also enjoying camembert and other soft cheeses.

By the way why is cheese orange in the US and yellow in NZ. Sorry for veering off the topic.

Bokhara2

Clifton, "And - every time I hear "milkshake" here, I perk up a bit.. until I realize you all mean flavoured milk. Which I like, as one would.. but for me, the term means what you call "thick shakes" here."

Did you really mean the thick slushy drink we call "thickshakes" or do you mean the old style milkshakes?

Greek cafes generally. A scoop or two of icecream in a tall metal beaker, filled 3/4 with milk (flavouring or vanilla added) and then whizzed up to a frothy heaven. Then out it would come with a soda glass and with great dexterity & ceremony, half would be poured into the glass from about a foot above. Two straws. One for you & one for your mate/brother/sister. I liked vanilla or caramel & malt (caramel malted); Vicki's favourite was chocolate or strawberry, so we'd take turns in ordering. It wasn't that our folks were mean - we just couldn't drink a whole one each. The froth stayed on the top and settled around the rim as you drank the milk. Straws used to scoop up the last morsel of froth.

AlanJG

Bokhara, the best milkshakes were served in Clifton on the Darling Downs in Queensland. They used fresh whole milk (with a little extra cream, I think) until that was stopped and all milk had to be processed.

Yes buy cheese when they go on special. I called into my supermarket for a few items this morning after birding. Just happen to walk past the chocolate aisle where my favourite regular dark chocolate, 78%, was almost half price and they just jumped into my basket!