Sorry, Alice, your mind-reading skills have let you down this time. I wouldn't have lived in Canberra for 20 years if I didn't love the place, and there are another 300,000 Canberrans who'll back me up on that. The only in-joke is Canberrans' huge amusement at the way so many Sydneysiders sneer at Canberra. It's worth remembering that more than half of Sydney's population lives west of Parramatta, far from the tourist-view Sydney of beaches, harbour and cafe culture and beset with a daily grind that would horrify a Canberran (and for that matter most other Australians).

I grew up and have lived most of my life in and around Sydney, incidentally. Rich is what I'd have to be to buy back into any area of the city I'd be prepared to live. By Canberra standards we'd nett a goodly amount by selling our house, but that would only buy us into somnewhere in Sydney that would represent a major deterioration in our lifestyle - the outer suburbs, or perhaps a 2-bedroom semi-detached in need of an expensive makeover in the Inner West.

Fact is, you can't double the population of a city and quadruple the number of vehicles, as has happened in Sydney over the past 40 years, without making life a lot less bearable for most of its inhabitants. It's as well that the more picturesque parts of Sydney have so far resisted the inhabitants' enthusiastic efforts to cover the city in air pollution, low-grade urban blight, architectural eyesores, pretentious and ugly "McMansions" and tollways that succeed only in shifting the bottlenecks further down the road.

Despite all that, by comparison with almost all other cities in the world, Sydney has it good. A depressing thought, that. So, if I had a lazy million or two to buy into the northern beaches, say, yes, I'd consider returning. But not otherwise. And it goes without saying that it's still a great tourist destination.

I know this discussion is short on relevance for most intending visitors, but maybe not for latitude49, who's obviously interested in getting more than a typical tourist's-eye view of Sydney.

Absolutely! Neil, the backbench here agrees with the speaker.
Alice's comment of "As for Queensland - great to visit but not to live in!!!

must be pretty one-sided because here in S.E. Queensland we are getting more than 3,000 escapees from New South Wales ( mainly Sydney) and Victoria PER WEEK!!!!!! moving here to live.
Heaven knows now that the streets of western Sydney have become like old Chicago in the Al Capone days I can understand the movement out of the place but be warned we, in Qld, are absolute red-necks, intolerent of perceived superiority by Sydneysiders as we cannot see what there is to be superior about and we do pity you all down there and really wish you all would just stay where you are as we don't want your lifestyle enforced on us!

Sydney is undergoing a crisis of confidence now that its prized reputation as Sin City being snaffled by Melbourne, which is experiencing a war for control of the city's drugs trade (body count 24 to date). And just to rub salt into the wound, corrupt cops are believed to have been involved - another proud Sydney heritage highjacked by Melbourne. Where will it all stop?

Visitors to either city need not feel alarmed, though. The sort of crime Liz is talking about is inter-gang stuff and very localised. But if you feel nervous you can always come to Canberra (or Brisbane). The worst we can offer are some feral politicians that drop in from time to time to sully the city's reputation.

Funny how this thread has now gone off on a tangent! If I may, I would like to add my two cents... from an outsider's perspective, of course.

Canberra - I once wrote a research paper on this Australian capital city. What intrigues me about this "garden city" is its thorougly planned-out design. Yes, some people might find the morphology of this city to be overtly orderly and structured - even monotonous, with lack of character, perhaps. But, there is much to be admired about the ingenuity of Canberra's design. Canberra's geometrical layout and its relation to the topography of the land is what, in my opinion, makes it strikingly different from other Australian cities. I honestly cannot wait to make a trip out to the ACT and see the Canberra that, up until now, I have only read about!

Sydney - From what I can gather so far, Sydney is what Canberra is not; i.e. chaotic, populated, congested, diverse, colourful, postmodern... Isn't this what a city is supposed to be all about? Urban life should be fun, exciting, riveting! Furthermore, in a city like Sydney, I imagine that all the conveniences of life are set just outside one's doorstep. Within a couple of blocks or more, one could probably walk to a post office and mail out a letter, then borrow a few books from a library, followed by lunch at a local Thai restaurant, and finally make a pitstop at a supermarket for groceries. Perhaps what appeals to me most about large cities is the number of distinct neighbourhoods that exist side-by-side, each with their own way-of-life and style. Then, there are the suburbs... the seemingly neverending sprawl of the suburbs. Planners are forever researching effective ways to mitigate the negative environmental impacts of sprawl! I won't go into a discussion about this... it would take much too long.

Queensland - This is one of several Australian states that I have yet to learn more about. However, from the information that I have gathered so far, it sounds to me like Queensland is the place to be for recreational enthusiasts, nature lovers, party-goers, sun-worshippers, and just about everyone else! From the glamour of the Gold Coast to the pristine tranquility of the Daintree Rainforest, Queensland has a lot to offer to people of many different lifestyles. I can see why many tourists, in addition to Australians, flock to this state. Queensland is on everybody's itinerary, and it will certainly be on mine too!

This has been an interesting discussion. Yes, indeed, I have gained more than a tourist's eyeview of Australia! It's wonderful.

One other point that latitude may have noticed is the biased viewpoint that each state ( meaning person in that said State) has about another.
On another point that Latitude said about the city is that: "Within a couple of blocks or more, one could probably walk to a post office and mail out a letter, then borrow a few books from a library, followed by lunch at a local Thai restaurant, and finally make a pitstop at a supermarket for groceries"
You know what? I can do just that on my beautiful rainforested mountain with only 6,000 residents and no traffic problems or parking fees. Furthermore I can enjoy that same lunch while I breath in clean, unpoluted air and in peace and quiet.
Sure Sydney is a lovely city as far as cities go but having lived there I can say that it sure looks better when I fly out, look back and head for Queensland.

Hi Latitude 49! I hate cold weather but you will only need jacket. Randwick, Kensington or Kingsford best for you to stay. There are travel passes for weekly, monthly, quarterly or yearly and cover bus,train and ferry system . Suggest you change your Victorian and Tasmanian holiday around..Far North Queensland will be good at that time but still very hot.Forget grocery shopping at Paddington Markets although well worth a visit..Paddys Market in the city is what you want but keep in mind new markets in Bondi Junction organic markets ..both these and also at FOX studios would be handy to you and are fresh from the farmers.Fox markets are Wednesdays, Bondi Junction Thurs, Fri and I think Sat, Paddington Sat and Paddys is Fri, Sat Sun.The dust storm was terrible but a one off.The Western Suburbs are far from being agricultural. You should be aware that Camden etc which you may have to visit are very far from the city and where you will live. I have worked at Uni of NSW ..nice campus . Enjoy and welcome .PS...I love Vancouver!

Latitude49, you're doing your research well. Canberra does lack the chaos that makes older and larger cities like Sydney interesting (and frustrating), but we're working on it. Actually the city would now be somewhat more urban in character had Walter Burley Griffin's original concept not been highjacked by the "garden city" movement, but signs of a more "city" feel are emerging. It's a beautiful city and works well for its residents, but the low population density (even by Australian standards) makes for too many cars and expensive public transport.

Nevertheless, Canberra is a great achievement. I'd like to see more Australians show some pride in their national capital rather than indulge in the puerile knocking we hear all too often.

The benefits of city life you mention tend to decrease the further you live from the city centre (and Sydney's, being near the coast, isn't the demographic centre by a long shot). Still, a lot of suburbanites are very happy with their lot and wouldn't want to live in a more built-up environment. And of course there's a world of difference between Parramatta and affluent and beautiful Palm Beach, despite their both being a good way from the city. An unfortunate development though has been the growth of the "McMansions", bloated 500-square-metre boxes that cover nearly all of the block they're built on, badly designed and built and hugely energy-inefficient. (This at a time when the average family size has never been smaller.) Perhaps too much of the planning function has been left to the multiplicity of local councils, which can easily be infiltrated by property developers.

Sydney's growth sprawl is dire, partly because it's where most immigrants settle. A scheme has been hatched for a class of immigration permit that will be conditional on not settling in Sydney.

A Brisbane friend once remarked, "You can always tell the immigrants from Melbourne - they're the ones you see working in the garden on weekends. A real Queenslander knows there's no point - it'll all grow back again in a few days, so you might as well go fishing." You can't help but like that attitude.

"Down south" is a relative term, though - when north Queenslanders use it they're just as likely to be talking about their own state capital, Brisbane. No wonder - Canberra is closer to Brisbane than Cairns is.

By the way, Sydney people like to cling to the fiction that it never gets cold in the winter. Well, it doesn't get terribly cold, but the result of this little myth is that houses may not be well heated or insulated, so don't forget your jacket. In the western suburbs temperatures are more extreme than near the coast; as the official Sydney readings are taken in the city, they tell part of the story only.

.. (continued) to live in Inner Sydney cheaply. Which is, I assume, what Latitude49 wants.

On the subject of Canberra - I was only a tourist and enjoyed the National Art Gallery and the War Museum (if 'enjoyed' is the right word) but on first arrival the place it reminded me of most was New Delhi - the OP as a town planner may recognise this too.

Alice, I can't disagree that the national buildings and surrounds in Canberra do suffer from a degree of monumentalism. You either love that or hate it. And the overall newness adds to the effect (most of what you see has been built in the last 50 years). You need to get away from those areas to appreciate the city as a place to live, but understandably very few visitors do. The Press also sends as distorted image, being fixated on political issues which the average Canberran feels no closer connection to than the people of any other city (only a minority of Canberrans are public servants, after all).

If you're going to build a capital city from scratch (unavoidable in our case, as without Canberra the colonies would never have agreed to federate in 1901) it's going to be a planned city, and it will take a few generations to develop and mature as a community. If the alternative to a plan is something like Sydney's Parramatta Road, it's a no-brainer. However, now that the residents and not the Federal Government have control of most of the city I'm sure we'll be able to create some (well-planned) chaos of our own.

Hi latitude 49...lots of Canadian students at Uni NSW live in Coogee (nearby beach suburb)and travel to Uni on bus number 370.

Hello Peteralan - thank you for your posts! I notice that you have managed to answer all my previous questions in one succinct paragraph (even the one about dust storms). That is great. I also appreciate your info re: Canadian students in Coogee. As johnj_au mentioned in his first post, UNSW has many overseas students. I'm sure I will bump into several Canadian students (or just Canadians, in general) off campus, if not on campus!

Now, I have a question about the commonly used expression, "Land of Oz." Why is this phrase used for Australia? What is its origin? Does it have a connection with the chant that goes something like, "Ozzie, Ozzie, Ozzie, Oy, Oy, Oy?" I have not been able to find any reliable sources that explain the usage of this expression.

Likewise, why is Sydney referred to as the "Emerald City?"

Just curious...

"Oz" is just a convenient contraction of "Australia", which as pronounced sounds a bit like "Oztralia" (although the Queen pronounces it something like "Awse-trell-iuh&quot. I doubt that there's any special connection with the original Land of Oz visited by Judy Garland. We're a bit short on wizards these days.

I read recently that the sporting chant "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, oi, oi, oi!" was pinched from the British, who were indeed cheering on someone named Ozzie. Unfortunately I can't quote chapter and verse for that, though.

"Emerald City" is the name of a play written by David Williamson in 1987 and filmed in 1990 starring Nicole Kidman. According to the blurb it showcased a number of typically Sydney pastimes ("money, lust, temptation, greed, power and ambition&quot. Whether Sydney had picked up the "Emerald City" appellation earlier or Williamson was the first to use it I don't know - I'd say it's used more by lazy journalists and publicists than the populace at large.

David Williamson is a prolific writer, with 26 plays and 14 films to his credit. His low point was a TV drama series called "Dog's Head Bay", about which the less said the better.