What's the better place to live for two professionals and one preschooler: Auckland or Canberra? Assume that residency issues are not a problem.

Here's some background. We are from the US and currently live in Auckland. It's really too big for us and we hate the traffic. The homes are terrible - no central heat or air, moldy and cold in the winters, no screens on the windows, so if you open them up, you get tons of flies and spiders. I know this might sound like nit-picking, but your entire winter is ruined if you have a frigid, moldy house with no real way to heat it. (It rains most of the winter so you are indoors a lot of time, especially with a preschooler.) The homes are also very expensive. Pay is low and organizations are not particularly professional. On the plus side, you don't have to drive far to enjoy the outdoors, and it's very green and dramatic scenery. Child care is inexpensive compared to the US and it's very high quality. We've made some good friends, but almost none of them are Kiwis - they are almost all expats. We've found Kiwis to be somewhat standoffish, although with some very noticable exceptions.

Canberra, on the other hand, seems like the perfect city. Where in the US can you get a town of 350,000 with three universities, the capital, embassies, culture, and museums? I understand there is little traffic. The homes seem to be much higher quality - when we look online, all the homes for rent have central heat. My Australian friends have expressed shock that NZ homes don't have fly screens on the windows, so I am assuming screens are normal in Australia. This is especially important when you consider one of the big downsides of Australia/Canberra: lots of crawly things that can kill or hurt you. I love being able to sit in the grass in Auckland and not worry about fire ants, but apparently they are a problem in Canberra. Cost of living may be a lot higher (although my pay would be about 25% more for the same job). I understand high quality day care is in great demand in Canberra, and that is an absolute must for us. Another positive in Canberra is that the population is supposedly more educated. We currently have problems with drunken loud neighbors in Auckland - the police come out here quite a bit. Of course in part that's our neighborhood, but finding a home to rent with insulation and heat pump is almost impossible, so we couldn't be that picky with neighborhoods.

What am I missing? Any ideas, thoughts, advice would be greatly appreciated!

Here is a site re Fire Ants which says that they are confined to Queensland only BUT I do not know when the article was written, you would be able to find out more I am sure. http://www.tams.act.gov.au/play/pcl/...ds/redfireants

Canberra is a beautifully set out city but it does get a tad cold in winter, though the sun would most probably be shining. Google a demographic study of the city for interesting facts about the place.
Most certainly in all modern houses in Australia there are screens in the houses and I am sure that Canberra houses would have adequate heating and most probably cooling. There is probably a local law about having to have insulation in the houses anyway as is the case in other colder areas of Australia.
I would doubt very much that the cost of living would be anywhere near 25% higher than Auckland in fact it could be lower but not having been in either city for a while I cannot be sure of that.
Canberra would not be as lovely and green most of the time like Auckland but on the other hand it is near some very lovely areas which you could visit and although its not close to the sea I think Canberra is only about 1.5 hr drive away from the ocean anyway. They you have access to Sydney which is good.
Cannot help you with day care but if any place would have good day care Canberra would as its our Nation's Capital and the politicians have to stay there.

Canberra would be the better option especially for a 25% pay hike, but remember it is very much a Public Service town and the inhabitants need a good education and qualifications to get a job. A bit like a smaller Washington DC in the country. I have a nephew living there with a small family ( 2 kids) and they love it, but he has a good job. Batemans Bay on the coast is a big Canberra holiday town and Sydney is not far away. Melbourne is less than an hour by plane. The Australian economy is one of the best in the world and in a much better shape than NZ. I would not worry about creepy crawlies as the majority of the population has probably never seen them. They have to make sensational documentaries and TV shows about something!
It does get cold in Winter, down to -6 celsius sometimes, but nothing compared to Northern American winters and the houses are heated.
The American Embassy is a great place and with Aussies from all over Australia working in Canberra, I am sure you would soon make friends. Kids and their activities always a good starting point.

If you happened to like a house without screens, they are not prohibitive to install. My niece recently had them put in a house she is renting.

I have friends with young kids there and they love it, too. One is with War Vetrans and the other a journalist and they've lived all around the world. They had their choice of several postings when they returned from the Middle East last year, and chose to go back to Canberra.

Given your comments about your housing in Auckland, a reconnoitre of the area at night as well as with the Agent, would be a good idea. It's difficult to judge an area on a flying visit with an enthusiastic Property Manager alone.

Good advice above and have a look at these previous Canberra threads, particularly the contributions of the late and much missed Neil_Oz -

http://www.fodors.com/community/aust...-australia.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/aust...rra-please.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/aust...-september.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/aust...n-canberra.cfm

Perhaps you might put a bit of effort into finding a different neighborhood and house in Auckland. A change in realtor sounds like a good idea.

We are Americans who lived in Canberra for several years in the '00's with our 2 school-aged children. Our house had central heat and screens on the windows and everyone I know had the same. Unlike some of our friends and neighbors, our house also had evaporative cooling, but we hardly ever used it in the summer. We spent a lot of time outside in the yard and never experienced any creepy crawlies, especially fire ants. (And we know about fire ants coming from Texas!)
We loved the climate. My kids never wore anything heavier than a jumper (sweatshirt) in the winter and I think I wore my lightweight coat once the whole time we lived there. Australians often claim that Canberra is cold, but for someone who now lives on the East Coast of the U.S., Canberra ain't cold! The summers are warm, but not oppressively hot and humidity the year round is low.
I can't help much with preschool, but our kids went to the government schools (both primary school and high school) and I thought they got an excellent education. (They each were top students in their U.S. high school upon our return.) I'm glad we didn't shell out the big bucks for private school as most of the Americans there seem to do.
There's lots to see and do around Canberra. First, there's the great museums, most of which are free. There is an admission charge for Questacon, the hands-on science museum and it's well worth it! In fact, you'll probably end up buying an annual membership like we did because our kids always wanted to go there. There's lots of outdoor activities too, including hiking, picnicking and animal viewing at Tidbinbilla Nature Reserve. We also did a lot of hiking and camping at Namadgi National Park. There's lots of swimming pools, both indoor and outdoor, so you can swim year-round. The mountains are about a 2-hour drive from Canberra. We enjoyed going to Threadbo and Selwyn Snowfields was the best place for our kids to learn to ski. The beaches (Bateman's Bay et al.) are about 2 hours away as well. Sydney is an easy 3-hour drive.
We found the Canberrans to be a very friendly lot. The friends of my kids were all either Australian or other nationalities from the various embassies. (Since my kids didn't go to school with Americans, they didn't have any American friends.) I became friends with parents from the schools and my next-door neighbor, a life-long Canberran, became a very close friend.
I think you could have a nice lifestyle in Canberra. In fact, I'm getting homesick for there now!

Thank you for the fantastic advice! So far it sounds like all the votes are for Canberra. I'm glad to know that fire ants have not made it to Canberra (and in fact that they are strictly contained), and that most people don't have to worry about deadly spiders killing them or their children every day.

I did find some threads by Neil_Oz in my search but I didn't get all of those. Thank you so much for sharing them. You refer to him as late - I'm sorry to hear that!

In terms of Auckland real estate, we probably know the market better than most rental agents. We have personally toured 100+ homes in most of the major areas in the city, and I've viewed 5000+ on trademe. The fact is, rental properties suck in Auckland, and if you want a warm, dry home without mold that is still within 30+ minutes of the city, you have to fight for them. One property we found had 200+ applicants - the owner chose only 4 people to view the house. We loved it but they chose someone else because we had a child and they had white carpets in the house. Completely understandable, but that gives you a sense of how hard it is to find a decent rental home in Auckland.

I forgot to say, thanks for the perspective from Americans! That is reassuring to know that you felt you fit in, and the public schools were good.

If anyone has other advice or comments, I would love to hear them.

You may well find the Canberra rental market pretty tight, too.

If you're planning on coming this year, you probably need to be looking at the rental properties "Yesterday", with all the Uni students & staff to be accommodated for the new year. First term starts end of Jan/beginning of February for schools and, I think, beginning of March for ANU.

This link may be of some use: http://www.domain.com.au/Search/rent...hterm=Canberra

Teklinika - I appreciate you are mainly concerned about ants and spiders, but in the interests of full disclosure I should also report that each year local government rangers here in Canberra receive 'numerous calls concerning snake sightings in the urban areas in and around Canberra' -

http://www.tams.act.gov.au/__data/as...ake_advice.pdf

and that in the last year or so at our suburban Canberra home we have had a visit from the most frequently seen variety, the brown snake (the first snake we've been aware of in nearly 20 years) -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_brown_snake

So, yes, snakes are a background fact of life here and in many parts of Australia, but please be assured that most residents and visitors rarely if ever encounter them and that the overwhelming concerns of those enjoying our great outdoors are barbeque carcinogens and UV radiation.

Of course, snakes are not the only wildlife here - we recently had a kangaroo in the front yard from the mob of 60 or so in the nature park up the street and have to deal with pesky possums, raucous cockatoos and demanding magpies.

What with those and the sharks, box jellyfish and blue ringed octopus, it's a wonder any of us survive. How on earth did we get to 20m+?

Hang on - have to get some milk for our resident blue tongue lizard. He's just waddled into the kitchen.


http://www.outback-australia-travel-...ue-lizard.html

Is Canberra colder than Melbourne in the winter?

I'm an American living in Melb for the last year, and visited in winter several times before moving here and I've never worn more than a simple zip up jacket during the worst of it.

I've never seen a single snake or a particularly nasty looking spider during this year or the visits before and we take bush walks and live across from a large nature park. We do have screens though. Flies I've seen plenty of.

hi Teklinika, Another American ex-pat chiming in here.... We've lived in Sydney for over three years now and have lived both with and without heat/AC. The majority of units we looked at did not have any sort of air handling systems at all. As for screens, most places did not have screens either. But we have not had any trouble with insects whatsoever. Not near the bugs we would encounter back int the upper Midwest at dusk in the summertime.

We've also done a ton of hiking all over the country and have had no issues with wildlife. Animal Planet channel would have you thinking that there is a snake around every corner....not so. But with that being said, it's still important to be careful about those kind of things.

You may be interested in additional opinions. A site that I found helpful when considering a move here to Australia is http://yanksdownunder.net , a forum for Americans living in Australia.

Good luck with your decision!

<Is Canberra colder than Melbourne in the winter?>

Clifton - yes, but nothing that would concern most North Americans. I've found that winter living in Canberra can be more comfortable than in some parts of Sydney because homes here have better heating. However, double glazing is rare and good roof, wall and floor insulation is still not as common as it should be so power bills take a hit. For clothing outdoors nothing too heavy is required - the layer approach works well, topped off with say, a light Kathmandu polartec type jacket. Summer clothing can be more problematic, particularly with young children, because of the high diurnal temperature range. And the sun's rays appear to be noticeably stronger here than on the coast, presumably because of the higher elevation and clearer skies (can't have everything).

<i>However, double glazing is rare and good roof, wall and floor insulation is still not as common as it should be so power bills take a hit.</i>

farrermog, that sounds similar to what I've seen at our rentals and at my wife's family member's homes around the city. The insulating factor is pretty poor in our current rental, but it seems to be par for the course.

I hadn't even considered elevation with my question, but that would make perfect sense. When it reached 40 degrees here a few weeks ago, a visit to my mother in law in the Dandenongs, with a 6 degree difference up there, was an unusually welcome idea.

Not sure what childcare costs in Canberra but in Sydney you pay in the vicinity of $100 a day for the really little ones (all food included, bring your own nappies) - that should give you a benchmark. I would imagine Canberra to be similar or cheaper than this.

Lavandula

I have lived in both cities and its really difficult to decide which is 'better'. I lived in a modern home in Auckland near one tree hill with fly screens and air conditioning. So it can be the house you select that makes auckland a problem. Of the two, the most outstanding problems would be traffic in Auckland (not a problem in Canberra) and weather in Canberra (Auckland is wonderful). Canberra can range from -6 in winter to 40 in summer. Child care facilities in Canberra are top rate but I would advise going on a waiting list in the area you want to move to. Depending on what age your child is, many schools have after school care programs in canberra. Canberra is fairly dull if you are single but excellent if you are a couple with a growing family.