MmePerdu

I'm in Mexico. I feel safe. Should I not be here? Or just India.

kja

Cultural norms about women make a huge difference -- as do norms about sex, violence, power, etc. Feeling safe and being safe are very different things. Knowing what cues to use to evaluate safety is a critical element, and actually paying attention to and evaluating those cues is also critical. I don't presume to know enough about the relevant cultural norms to suggest whether India's norms are currently like or unlike those of any other culture. But whether in India or anywhere else, our beliefs that we can avoid danger are just that -- self-protective beliefs, and there is a substantial body of research on such beliefs. They function in ways that are similar to blaming a victim, in that they preserve our sense that "it couldn't happen to us" -- even though it could. Self-protective beliefs are necessary (or we could never go anywhere!), but they are always at least in part a bit of a delusion. The key questions are how much those beliefs converge with / diverge from reality; the extent to which we monitor and correctly interpret safety cues; and the extent of risk we, as individuals, are willing to assume.

thursdaysd

Very well said, kja. The cultural norms towards women obviously vary tremendously, as do attitudes to western women. The young boy (early teens at most) who attempted to grab my breasts on a quiet street in Syria had obviously been acculturated to regard western women, or maybe just women not shrouded in black, as sex objects, available to anyone. (One reason I am opposed to Europe accepting hundreds of thousands of Syrian economic migrants). The attitude towards women in India is, if anything, worse, with high rates of female abortion, dowry deaths, gang rape as a punishment, eve teasing, etc. etc. As Indian women are starting to develop independent lives, some mens' reaction to the changes has turned violent.

I have no opinion on the situation in Mexico.

kja

@ thursdaysd -- I honestly can not imagine how I would react if a young man tried to grab my breasts. IMO, that you are able to place his action in a broader cultural context speaks to your compassionate cultural sophistication.

But as you note, getting to a place where gender is a less decisive cultural factor will be very hard. The greater the freedoms and options that women gain, the more threatened some men will be, and the more men feel at risk, the more they are likely to seek to retaliate in any way they can -- whether they understand all their motivations or not, and whether rational or not. IMO, that's especially sad, since at least some evidence suggests that EVERYONE will do better if women gain greater power....

julies

Do you people honestly think these types of incidents happen only in India and not in the US (or Europe)?

Ill bred, crass, uncouth, young men are all over the world. Several decades ago, in the middle of the afternoon, I was in a canoe in a fairly small creek in a very nice upscale area with another female friend. Two young men approached and tried to grab my breasts.

dgunbug

Julie - the difference is that in our country this is unacceptable behavior, while until recently, in India nothing was done to these perpetrators. We can hope that public opinion and outcry throughout the world will force the Indian government to take action against these horrendous acts of violence against women.

MmePerdu

Again, I agree with julies. This behavior is no respector of supposed civilization or culture, it's everywhere in various guises. I don't believe for a second that surface unacceptability makes it go away. It's genetic, not cultural and will be with us as long as the species breeds. I'm all for consequences but to believe that "in our country this is unacceptable behavior" across the board is, I think, naive and julies' statement regarding some men everywhere, and I'll add violent to the list of traits, is the actual truth. I include our own society where violence against women goes unreported routinely for exactly the same reasons as in India. Maybe not as visibly in educated white America that most of us live in but just because we don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

MmePerdu

And btw, my question about Mexico was not an actual solicitation for opinion. I'm as safe here as in the places I go anywhere. Not to say anywhere, anytime...everywhere.

Kathie

Julies, I have no illusions that these incidents happen only in India. (And I know we could all tell similar stories) But the difference is how the larger culture sees these incidents and responds to them. I do not believe that these behaviors are "genetic" but are culturally conditioned. And I know well that violence against women continues to be a issue in the US, Canada and Western Europe. But things can change and have changed. I first worked on projects to reduce the incidence of sexual violence when I was in college (and that was a long time ago!) and I have continued to be active in this area. Is there still violence against women? Yes. But the incidence in the US has actually declined and how it is seen by the culture at large has changed a lot.

Let me give a trivial example: When we were in the airport in Kolkata, we had just put our cases into the X-ray machine when an Indian man rushed to the head of the line, grabbed our cases out of the machine and stuck his own in there ahead of us. No one said a word. The security guys didn't blink. Had that happened in the US there would have been an uproar from other customers in line as well as a swift reaction from security.

MmePerdu

Regarding a man getting service before a woman, have you ever been in Home Depot?

MmePerdu

It occurs to me that the man at the x-ray machine would have been in the same hurry had you been a man.

Kathie

MmePerdu, it wasn't a matter of a man getting service before me, it was him removing my cases from the x-ray machine, setting them on thee floor, putting his own in, etc. Had I been a man, I expect he wouldn't have barged in ahead of me or would have asked or said something ("excuse me, I'm in danger of missing my flight").

Yes, I've certainly had times when a man was served ahead of me, and here in the US I don't hesitate to speak up... and if I was obviously there first, the man will often speak up, pointing out that I was there first so should be served first. The atmosphere is simply different.

Haven't you had experiences in India or elsewhere where the message was really clear that as a woman you were not worthy of respect?

Yes, there is bad behavior everywhere, but how the culture treats it can encourage bad behavior or discourage it.

jacketwatch

I can't deny Kathies experience but I can say that even as a male who has been to India 7 times I have been cut in front of many times. Once I was next in line at a bank and some guy just thrust his arm into the little half moon opening at the tellers window. I pulled it out and blocked the slot until I was served. However I have also experienced that too and many times.

jacketwatch

And closer to your experience Kathie the first time in India for me we were waiting on one of many lines to show our passports and were next. Some guy who worked at the airport (Palam, way before they built IGI) just cut in front of us with passports of some friends of his. My wife shouted at him in Hindi and then in English and when I understood what he was trying to do I went ballistic. Just say we did not let him do this and that he was dismayed about my language. . However no one who worked there even tried to stop him.

crosscheck

I agree that the line cutting culture in India is not gender specific. When we were changing planes in Delhi on our way to Varanasi from Udaipur, our travel company provided a 'handler' for us in the Delhi airport. He led us to the front of all the long lines as if we were royalty. Nobody seemed to mind or be surprised. At the time we thought he had a special pass, but later we realized he was just cutting in with an air of authority.

jacketwatch

Actually on that very flight we stopped in London for a day and I recall some Indian guys in line trying to cut in front of some Japanese men who of course were patiently waiting their turn in line. It got a little tense but no cutting and no scene.

Once on a KLM flight an Indian man tried to cut in front of 5 others waiting in line to use the bathroom. Lets just say that too failed.

crosscheck

This is an interesting thread, but we really are discussing several different topics at once. Yes, sadly there is a rape culture as well as overt misogyny here in the US, as there is in Europe. But I agree with Kathie that violent rape in our culture would never be viewed the way it is in India -- there it is routinely covered up, ignored...or even condoned.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...g-9494981.html

thursdaysd

This is getting off track. Let's agree that Indians do not queue like, for instance, Brits. You only have to try to buy a train ticket in a regular train station (not one of the "foreigners only" offices in the four big cities) to understand that. And guess what? That's a cultural difference.

I find it astounding that well-traveled people are actually claiming that cultural differences do not exist, and that the situation for Indian women is no worse than for western. Of course, there are bad actors in all societies, of course there are rapists in all societies, of course the situation on US campuses (especially those that host the bizarre - to non-Americans - "Greek" societies) is bad, but we are talking about a completely different attitude to women, and a completely different existence for women.

Find me a European or North American country where female fetuses are aborted at anything approaching the rate in India (see: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/women-p...ry?id=15103950 and http://www.ibtimes.com/abortions-fem...e-india-790122 )

Find me a European or North American country where arranged marriages are still the norm, and bride(groom) wanted ads, sorted by caste and sub-caste, listing things like "wheat" complexion and educational attainment, replace dating ads. Brides are expected to bring significant dowries. If the dowry payment is in arrears, or subsequently deemed too little, the bride is likely to have a "kitchen accident" and burn to death. Where else does that happen?

Find me a European or North American country where village elders will sentence a female family member to gang rape (by them) as punishment for something a male member of the family has done, to shame the family. See: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...boyfriend?lite - http://jezebel.com/two-indian-women-...ape-1727447153

Find me another country where a widow was expected to throw herself on her dead husband's funeral pyre. The practice was banned by the British during the Raj, much to the annoyance of their Indian subjects, but the practice still occasionally turns up - there was a case a few years back and the young woman became a local heroine - and still seems to be revered. Even today surviving widows become almost non-people.

If you are a woman, be thankful you were born in the west. Be very thankful.

julies

If you have not read this, it is a must read!

Half the Sky: Turning Oppression into Opportunity for Women Worldwide

http://www.amazon.com/Half-Sky-Oppre...f+half+the+sky

jacketwatch

I can't disagree with much of what you say as I too know about bride burning (it happened to my BIL's daughter, dowries, the sometimes evil practices of villagers and the elders who hold sway.

However arranged marriages is an accepted way in this country and we know many couples who got married and have stayed married this way and they ar very happy. It's so different for us but I can't argue with it as it is a cultural difference and can't be taken out of context with the society as a whole. It works for milions and frankly the divorce rate is very low vs. ours in the US.

I too have seen marriage ads along caste lines. It's part of traditional society though I do think it's slowly changing. Any society has its practices and I have always felt that the caste system which locks one into a role from birth is something that needs to change. Of course people should be allowed to peruse per their ability whatever they choose to do. However this change will take generations I think. People in shall we say higher castes have protested Indias version of affirmative action where positions are reserved for lower caste people so they are trying to change things but of course big reversals of common cultural practices always take time and persistent effort and changes in the law. Change of heart is another thing.

I think to say surviving widows in villages are like non-people is quite a supposition. I don't know how one can prove that.

Clearly India has to treat women as equals but so do many other countries too, like Nigeria, many of the Gulf countries, Pakistan, many countries in Latin and South America and in the US too.