kja

Personally, I have no trouble with the expression of opinions about travel, though I readily admit that I have trouble with the expression of opinions about other posters. And I don't think credentials are required, but I appreciate it when people show respect for the expertise that comes with credentials. I also appreciate it when people give posters the benefit of the doubt by assuming that their motivations are positive and doing one's best to read their words in that light, even when other interpretations are possible. JMO.

KML28

We just came back from a private Silk Road tour with Travel China Guide last week, from 9/15 to 9/28: 14 Days "Luxury China Tour" to Lanzhou - Xiahe - Tongren - Xining - Zhangye - Jiayuguan - Dunhuang - Turpan - Urumqi. Since the tour company did not recommend flying a domestic flight and an international flight on the same day, we flew from Urumqi to Beijing on 9/28, spent a night and then back to the U.S. on 9/29. Since we had been to Xian in 2005, we skipped Xian and started with Lanzhou. We are Chinese American, we speak Cantonese and English at home, my husband can speak Mandarin, and I can speak very simple Mandarin. Since our daughter doesn't understand Mandarin, we had all English-speaking guides. Overall we are happy with the tour. There were some minor problems but our travel consultant Vera Yu was very responsive and could be reached even in the evening and on a Sunday. We had 3 different tour guides, none of them took us to any shopping trips since it was a private tour and we planned the itinerary with Vera before hand. The trip was not cheap, but we think it was worth it. In the western part of China, often times no one in the hotels understand English, I found myself polishing my Mandarin in this trip. I have to say that I agree with Shelemm. Even though my husband and I can read and write Chinese, we didn't know how people can even find the bus stops and know where to go in China. We have traveled to a lot of places in over 20 years; there were places where we traveled on our own and we enjoyed every much, such as separate trips to London and Paris, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Amsterdam, Australia, New Zealand, and of course Hong Kong. However, we joined a tour group in Egypt, Peru, Japan, Greece, and China. We had a private tour group in Cambodia, Thailand, and just now the Silk Road of China. By the way, a taxi driver tried to scam us when we were going to the Heavenly Temple 天壇 in Beijing on the last day (we didn't go in 2005 when it was being renovated). Maybe he wouldn't have tried to scam us if we didn't understand Mandarin. Good thing that we had figured out how to use the subway in Beijing, but we still missed the convenience of a tour guide and a van.

temppeternh

> The trip was not cheap, but we think it was worth it.

If you don't go with the mass market tours but with a hand-crafted trip you can (largely, but not definitely--it depends where you are) avoid the shopping shenanigans. But you will pay a great deal more to cover reduced kick-backs, and, of course, you will still overpay a great deal for every element in your tour, which will largely be engineered towards hotels, restaurants, and sights that benefit the operator. Of course, you can avoid the latter problem by specifying the sights, accommodation, and restaurants in your trip, too, but then you might just as well do it all yourself, and have the whole trip more flexible and vastly cheaper.

Some people just prefer the convenience of getting on a plane and worrying about nothing, and that's a sufficient condition for taking a tour. But it needs to be understood that in China other than organisational convenience there are few of the benefits expected from taking tours: not cheapness, not accurate information, not protection from scams (indeed the complete opposite), not use of the best restaurants or accommodation (at any budget level).

> Even though my husband and I can read and write Chinese, we didn't know how people can even find the bus stops and know where to go in China.

There's just a slight flavour of, "I don't want to feel I could have done it without a tour," about this remark.

Clearly 1.3 billion Chinese (many of whom are not even literate) seem to manage, as do hundreds of thousands of independent travellers who neither know a single character of Chinese or speak a word of any Chinese language, and yet who travel all over the country by themselves. Anyone who can read Chinese and who can manage the Mandarin for 'Where's the bus stop?' （汽车站在那里?） is fairly obviously in no more difficulty than a literate English-speaker in England.

There's a tendency in these discussions for:

I don't want to do it that way

or

I did it this way

to elide into

This way was best

or

This way is best for everyone

and few want to hear after the event that actually they might have made a different decision, or that that thing they bargained hard for in the market could actually be bought for half price. (There was one poster here who inexplicably paid in US$ units the sum she should have paid in ¥RMB units, complained bitterly about the cost, and refused to accept her mistake even when given the link to the web page with ¥RMB prices.) There's also a tendency (hinted at later in the posting) to claim that the alternative would be too awkward or difficult without actually trying it. Arguments are often seen here manufacturing difficulties that are entirely imaginary.

But of course people do do the alternative all the time, and come back saying, 'That was better for me.'

In contrast, 'A tour is better for me' is sufficient reason for taking a tour, so long as it's fully understood exactly what one is letting oneself in for when it comes to tours in China, which makes them impossible in general to recommend to others.

No one who usually makes their own arrangements should consider a tour in China, and those who do usually take tours should examine the circumstances very carefully, asking their tour companies specific questions on shopping trips and other matters as not all is revealed in the itineraries, and calculating whether the effort needed to avoid the shenanigans (insofar as they can be avoided) is worth the effort.

KML28

This was the first time that I ever gave an answer in the Fodors forum, I did it because Jennyturin asked about the 2 tour companies, and we happened to have used one of them.

We studied the Chinese history well, and my husband is very knowledgeable about many aspects in China. We did not feel in anyway that the tour company or guides gave out false information. There is no need to dispute or argue point by point. To use a tour company or not inside China is based on the tourist's preference. Sure you can learn a couple of sentences in Chinese and ask your way, we were told that our hotel in Beijing was very closed by the subway station. We asked our way, it took us 20 minutes or so to get there. There are people backpacking all over the world, yes, it can be done, but it may not be everyone's style or preferences.

I am not here to influence anyone to just do it my way, I am just telling Jennyturin my experience as exact as it was.

thursdaysd

What Peter said. Which included, very clearly, that if your preference is to take a tour you should do so.

I do find your concern about finding bus stations, or for that matter, metro stations, at best puzzling. I am tone deaf and cannot speak Mandarin, aside from a few badly pronounced words like hello and thankyou. I did travel in China with a guidebook and a good phrase book, and these days I would take a smart phone, which I have found makes taking buses almost childishly easy, even in South Korea and Japan.

I did learn some of the characters, mostly for place names and food. I was able to find the bus station in Xi'an, Chengdu, Kunming, Lijiang, Dali, Tonghai, Jianshui, Gejiu and Shilin. I think I probably took a taxi in Xi'an, but I did the rest on foot. I had written the characters for my destination on a piece of paper. In Chengdu there was an indoor ticket office, but in Lijiang there was just a woman in a kiosk at the entrance, and in a couple of places just a guy hanging out at the entrance to a parking area. I always wound up in the right bus.

I enjoyed doing it, but I can see that someone who prefers a car and guide to the Beijing subway probably would not. That doesn't mean it is especially difficult, though.

kja

@ KML28: Thank you for posting a summary of your experience. IMO, people definitely need to figure out what works for them and plan accordingly.

For anyone else who reads this thread, I’ll note that I also had no problem finding bus stops or other things in China (or at least, no more than anywhere else). I had learned just a few words of Mandarin, but mostly just the civilities. Like thursdaysd, I traveled with a guidebook and phrasebook, and managed quite well on my own for a month, much of which was outside the “usual” tourist destinations. In one place where almost people no one speak English, people became convinced (incorrectly) that I was lost and went to great – and wonderfully endearing – efforts to help me find my bus (even though I knew exactly where the bus stop was, thanks to maps in my guidebooks). I didn’t have problems with hotels, either, even though I didn’t reserve anything in advance except for my first few days in Beijing, and I didn't stay at places that generally cater to Westerners.

Again, I’m not saying others should travel as I did – just providing information.

temppeternh

> We did not feel in anyway that the tour company or guides gave out false information.

Unfortunately, other than in Tibet, there is no part of China in which it is less likely that in Xinjiang that Han guides (or, indeed licensed guides of any kind) will give out accurate information.

And throughout China licensed guides are taught not to do it.

CanadaChinaTraveller

"For anyone else who reads this thread, I’ll note that I also had no problem finding bus stops or other things in China (or at least, no more than anywhere else)" - I agree that China is no different from other places in the world. No need to speak Italian to visit Italy. China is the same except that it is is somewhat more challenging because of the characters. Ultimately, it is not about China but about one's preference or abilities. I was once standing behind a tourist who could not figure out how to order from a picture menu at KFC. I am sure that he could not figure out any bus, or even the bilingual subway. I hope that he was on a tour or he'd still be looking for his hotel now.

temppeternh

> I had learned just a few words of Mandarin, but mostly just the civilities.

Indeed perhaps I didn't make my point very clear. While knowing even a little Mandarin is helpful in navigating China, none is actually needed, for those fluent in the language asking directions and finding bus stops can be of no more difficulty than for a fluent English speaker visiting England or a fluent French speaker visiting France. The later suggestion (in the original post) that knowing Mandarin actually creates difficulties is itself more than a little difficult to understand.