TRIP REPORT JAPAN
Jun 16th, 2006, 11:41 PM
#21
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DIANAS, I second mrwunrfl and hope that you post with more details about your stay at Yoshi-Ima. We have reservations to stay there for one night in August, so I'd definitely like to hear more about your experience.
We've also got reservations for 3 nights at the Granvia. After reading various reports about the Granvia and other hotels, I keep debating whether it would be wise to change hotels, but the warnings about hot it will be in August make me believe that staying as close to the transportation hub as possible (and I don't think you can get much closer than the Granvia) is our best choice.
Thanks!
We've also got reservations for 3 nights at the Granvia. After reading various reports about the Granvia and other hotels, I keep debating whether it would be wise to change hotels, but the warnings about hot it will be in August make me believe that staying as close to the transportation hub as possible (and I don't think you can get much closer than the Granvia) is our best choice.
Thanks!
Jun 17th, 2006, 09:23 AM
#22
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Have read the above threads about the kaiseki dinner, etc at a ryokan.
I may be paranoid, however, I have a suspicion that when a foreigner presents for a stay/meal at a traditional setting in Japan, especially one where foreigners are not regularly received, they may serve a less than authentic meal/service, one that they can get away with with an unknowing foreigner, but would never serve to a Japanese national who knows what to expect.
I do not think that this is done in any malicious sense but some places may assume foreigners would neither recognize, nor appreciate the authentic presentation.
I may be paranoid, however, I have a suspicion that when a foreigner presents for a stay/meal at a traditional setting in Japan, especially one where foreigners are not regularly received, they may serve a less than authentic meal/service, one that they can get away with with an unknowing foreigner, but would never serve to a Japanese national who knows what to expect.
I do not think that this is done in any malicious sense but some places may assume foreigners would neither recognize, nor appreciate the authentic presentation.
Jun 17th, 2006, 03:29 PM
#23
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The thing about Yoshi-ima, though, is they are heavily marketed to foreigners, and are also an option on at least one tour run for foreigners.
I would disagree about places serving foreigners less authentic meals if they weren't used to seeing foreigners...if anything, the opposite would be true. If a place sees a lot of foreigners then they might serve food that they think might better suit a non-Japanese taste. I don't know if it happens...it might in some places. This is the reason, though, that I have trouble recommending places that make a point to accommodate foreigners. I've just gotten the feeling that they charge more than they should and that they may not be as nice as they should be for the price.
In our experience, we've had the best meals and service in places that see few, if any foreigners.
I would disagree about places serving foreigners less authentic meals if they weren't used to seeing foreigners...if anything, the opposite would be true. If a place sees a lot of foreigners then they might serve food that they think might better suit a non-Japanese taste. I don't know if it happens...it might in some places. This is the reason, though, that I have trouble recommending places that make a point to accommodate foreigners. I've just gotten the feeling that they charge more than they should and that they may not be as nice as they should be for the price.
In our experience, we've had the best meals and service in places that see few, if any foreigners.
Jun 17th, 2006, 04:34 PM
#24
Kim, does your last observation apply to Hiiragiya and other luxury ryokans (I like this term "luxury ryokan" that is defined at japaneseguesthouses)? I see it recommended at both fodors and frommers, so it must be accommodating to foreigners. I imagine that there are others that don't.
I agree with alibi13. It is over-touristed by jet-lagged foreigners and many of the people who work there are weary of them. If what okoshi2002 suggests is happening (and it is) then it is going to happen in Gion. Which brings me back to a suggestion that another poster and I made about staying at a ryokan in some other location, like Hakone, where you can also enjoy an onsen and get a better value than in Kyoto.
I agree with alibi13. It is over-touristed by jet-lagged foreigners and many of the people who work there are weary of them. If what okoshi2002 suggests is happening (and it is) then it is going to happen in Gion. Which brings me back to a suggestion that another poster and I made about staying at a ryokan in some other location, like Hakone, where you can also enjoy an onsen and get a better value than in Kyoto.
Jun 17th, 2006, 05:17 PM
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Never stayed at Hiragaya or other well known by foreigners. Have stayed at Kagaya in Wakura Onsen, which is luxe, and by the nature of its location, rarely sees foreingers. Service was over the top...to the point almost where I wanted them to relax a bit I think. Baths were many, indoor and outdoor, and of various types. Food was exquisite. Dinner was endless it seemed, and breakfast was almost as involved.
My parents stayed at ... for the life of me I can't think of the name right now...in Takayama. Elainee stayed at the same place about 2 years ago. We stayed about 8 years ago. Our experience was lovely, but Elainee's wasn't so great...maybe a change in the place over the years. Maybe too, we had a Japanese style room which was beautiful, and Elainee and friends had the only two western bedrooms in the place and they said they seemed to need to be redone. In our case, we were the only foreigners...in their case as well.
We've also stayed in some less expensive places, and did a test night in a place called Chaya in Kanazawa. The city of Kanazawa paid for us to stay at Chaya as reviewers...how did they treat foreigners...as they were trying to increase the number of foreign visitors to Kanazawa and wanted to be sure the recommended lodging choices were actually foreigner friendly. It was nice, meal an exquisite crab dinner, course after course of crab...but we found the bath to be boring with only 2 tubs, and the building and room a bit tired and in need of refurbishment. Futons were very good though. Service was excellent. They also did not see many foreigners.
okoshi2002 was saying places that DON'T see foreigners a lot don't treat them as well...right? I'm saying the opposite, and I think you are too.
My parents stayed at ... for the life of me I can't think of the name right now...in Takayama. Elainee stayed at the same place about 2 years ago. We stayed about 8 years ago. Our experience was lovely, but Elainee's wasn't so great...maybe a change in the place over the years. Maybe too, we had a Japanese style room which was beautiful, and Elainee and friends had the only two western bedrooms in the place and they said they seemed to need to be redone. In our case, we were the only foreigners...in their case as well.
We've also stayed in some less expensive places, and did a test night in a place called Chaya in Kanazawa. The city of Kanazawa paid for us to stay at Chaya as reviewers...how did they treat foreigners...as they were trying to increase the number of foreign visitors to Kanazawa and wanted to be sure the recommended lodging choices were actually foreigner friendly. It was nice, meal an exquisite crab dinner, course after course of crab...but we found the bath to be boring with only 2 tubs, and the building and room a bit tired and in need of refurbishment. Futons were very good though. Service was excellent. They also did not see many foreigners.
okoshi2002 was saying places that DON'T see foreigners a lot don't treat them as well...right? I'm saying the opposite, and I think you are too.
Jun 17th, 2006, 07:02 PM
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Not being given an authentic presentation could well be equated with not being treated well. If someone seeks out a ryokan or onsen stay in order to have an experience, and they are given less of an experience because they are foreigners, that is certainly not good treatment. It may be courteous treatment, it may even be friendly. But the foreigner wouldn't be getting the same thing as a local person/Japanese person, yet they would be paying at least the same price, maybe more. That's poor treatment.
It wasn't Nagase...it was Seiryu. Now I remember...i just spent 1 1/2 hours planting flowers at the elementary school...my sunbaked memory is working better than my just woken up one.
It wasn't Nagase...it was Seiryu. Now I remember...i just spent 1 1/2 hours planting flowers at the elementary school...my sunbaked memory is working better than my just woken up one.
Jun 18th, 2006, 12:58 AM
#33
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> One can be treated well and not receive an authentic presentation of food and surroundings.
I understand what Okoshi meant. Sometimes the receiving side (e.g. ryokan) assume, maybe wrongly, the Japanese authentic way (whatever it is) is not suitable for the foreign tourists so they modify the things a bit to what they assume again to be for foreigners' tastes. And these are well intended, if off the mark. If this happens often or not is another matter, that I don't know the anwer.
I understand what Okoshi meant. Sometimes the receiving side (e.g. ryokan) assume, maybe wrongly, the Japanese authentic way (whatever it is) is not suitable for the foreign tourists so they modify the things a bit to what they assume again to be for foreigners' tastes. And these are well intended, if off the mark. If this happens often or not is another matter, that I don't know the anwer.
Jun 18th, 2006, 11:16 AM
#34
okoshi, you are not paranoid, your suspicions are correct because some people do try to "get away with" treating foreigners with less than the standard service. This happens at places that do not frequently have foreign tourists and at places that do. It happens intentionally and it happens unintentionally.
It happens very infrequently.
It happens very infrequently.
Jun 18th, 2006, 01:39 PM
#35
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Wowwww…just to add a token to this discussion hope it helps!!!
First I am going to give more details about the Ryokan. It is kind of funny to write this after reading all your comments. The room at Yoshima was Ok, normal size and clean, with a nice garden view; the room was actually in the garden; that was nice. The bath was not nice, at least for my standards. The bath was just a box of wood (I know it is a very fine one) deep but small. It has a W.C. in a separate room. I know many don’t even have that but anyway…just giving all my experience. That was OK until I ask for the public bath, thinking that the Ryokan had a nice (bath, onsen or something in which we could get in and relax) The public bath was just a small room with a western style bath tub, deeper and bigger that the one each of us have a t home). The futons were good and we had a good night at the floor, after we woke up at 12.30 (jetlag or discomfort I still don’t know). At 8.30 (that was the latest available time) a lady knocked in our door with breakfast. It was OK, it was better that dinner. The lady rolled the beds and brought us the food.
But let me go back to the night before. We arrived around 3 and were told to came back later to do the check in. Came back at 6 and had diner at 7.30. A lady brought some hot towels and tea. A couple of minutes later a tray with maybe 5 little plates, put it on the table and left. Came back maybe 10 or 15 minutes later with another tray with other 4 or 5 little plates. Also, left, two little plates with a little piece of melon on the floor and left. We were there starring at each other eating things without knowing what they were but the worst part of that was not the fact of not knowing but not enjoying because nothing tasted great, only one thing tasted really bad, but then again nothing was delicious as delicious as we had all the time in Japan. They had a tea ceremony on a little tea room next to us at 8pm. We went there had tea and came back. I think that is pretty much all I have to say about our out of this world experience at the ryokan in Kyoto for 40,000 Y!!!
Just to add something to what has been said here. I first visited Japan 17 years ago and stayed with my then college roommate a Japanese girl. We went to a Ryokan and the bath experience was great and the food, at least what I remember made me said wow more than once! It is a shame that I lost contact and have no names for those places. It was probably Hakon. Then again I was with my Japanese friends!!!!
Spa World comment to follow!
First I am going to give more details about the Ryokan. It is kind of funny to write this after reading all your comments. The room at Yoshima was Ok, normal size and clean, with a nice garden view; the room was actually in the garden; that was nice. The bath was not nice, at least for my standards. The bath was just a box of wood (I know it is a very fine one) deep but small. It has a W.C. in a separate room. I know many don’t even have that but anyway…just giving all my experience. That was OK until I ask for the public bath, thinking that the Ryokan had a nice (bath, onsen or something in which we could get in and relax) The public bath was just a small room with a western style bath tub, deeper and bigger that the one each of us have a t home). The futons were good and we had a good night at the floor, after we woke up at 12.30 (jetlag or discomfort I still don’t know). At 8.30 (that was the latest available time) a lady knocked in our door with breakfast. It was OK, it was better that dinner. The lady rolled the beds and brought us the food.
But let me go back to the night before. We arrived around 3 and were told to came back later to do the check in. Came back at 6 and had diner at 7.30. A lady brought some hot towels and tea. A couple of minutes later a tray with maybe 5 little plates, put it on the table and left. Came back maybe 10 or 15 minutes later with another tray with other 4 or 5 little plates. Also, left, two little plates with a little piece of melon on the floor and left. We were there starring at each other eating things without knowing what they were but the worst part of that was not the fact of not knowing but not enjoying because nothing tasted great, only one thing tasted really bad, but then again nothing was delicious as delicious as we had all the time in Japan. They had a tea ceremony on a little tea room next to us at 8pm. We went there had tea and came back. I think that is pretty much all I have to say about our out of this world experience at the ryokan in Kyoto for 40,000 Y!!!
Just to add something to what has been said here. I first visited Japan 17 years ago and stayed with my then college roommate a Japanese girl. We went to a Ryokan and the bath experience was great and the food, at least what I remember made me said wow more than once! It is a shame that I lost contact and have no names for those places. It was probably Hakon. Then again I was with my Japanese friends!!!!
Spa World comment to follow!
Jun 18th, 2006, 02:24 PM
#36
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Regarding Spa World. I will say it again it was a great experience!!! But I will also say that it will be good only for those people that like to relax and enjoy get pamper. The whole thing is an ONSEN, if we are talking about the hot spring waters. But not only is the water is the atmosphere, they have a corner in which you find four stone onsen -the size of two normal size Jacuzzis with different water tempetures and also different fragrances; they have a wood one (same size), and two small ones round also made of wood (for one person – very nice) none like the one at the ryokan!!! All these in an open air space! I am not saying that it should be your Onsen experience or maybe it should be….. : ) It is nice, it is very quite, it is affordable and it is very good for you !
We tried an Onsen in Nikko. A hotel next to the bus stop when you go up to the mountain. It was really cold and all the restaurants were close. We walk to that hotel and found out they had an Onsen. Went in, very nice, very hot and almost the same price than Spa World.
Also tried on place in Kyoto, good but after going to SPa World....not so good and then again same price!
So… if you are in Kyoto, have a JR Pass and want to relax for a couple of hours I will say GO for it. Remember I said it only takes 15 minutes on the Shinkansen to go from Kyoto to Osaka.
We tried an Onsen in Nikko. A hotel next to the bus stop when you go up to the mountain. It was really cold and all the restaurants were close. We walk to that hotel and found out they had an Onsen. Went in, very nice, very hot and almost the same price than Spa World.
Also tried on place in Kyoto, good but after going to SPa World....not so good and then again same price!
So… if you are in Kyoto, have a JR Pass and want to relax for a couple of hours I will say GO for it. Remember I said it only takes 15 minutes on the Shinkansen to go from Kyoto to Osaka.
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:18 PM
#37
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Well, that doesn't sound like a good experience.
I do understand them asking you to come back later at check-in...a bit. On their Japanese pages check-in time is listed as 4:00 pm and check-out at 10:00 am. I couldn't see this information on their English pages, and I don't know if they gave you that information when they confirmed your reservation. Check-in and check-out times are strictly enforced.
At check-in, you didn't have tea and a small sweet? This is usual and I'm surprised that you didn't have it.
The bathroom setup in the room is normal. The toilet is always in a seperate room from the bathtub...it's just how Japanese houses are. Probably because a bath is meant to take time for relaxing...and the toilet may need to be used during that time. My house has a bathroom with a tub and shower, attached to another room with a sink and our washing machine. We have two toilet rooms, one on the first floor and one on the second floor. The only place you'll find toilets and tubs together is in hotels and some mighty tiny apartments with unit baths.
Ryokan public baths can be lovely, or can be very simple as the one in Yoshi-ima was. It is the onsen ryokan/hotels that have the amazing baths.
The dinner service sounds horrible. The food I can't comment on, but the service just sounds abysmal. The meals can come on trays with a few dishes at a time, that's OK. Leaving the melon on the floor for you to serve yourself when you were ready is very poor. Also, if your meal time was 7:30 and you were finished in time for the tea ceremony at 8:00, that's just not the way it should be. A kaiseki meal is meant to take time, be served slowly, each dish tasted and enjoyed slowly. What it sounds like to me is that you had a "10 course" meal served in 2 courses. Better service would have had the dishes served one or two at a time as a relaxed pace, with the next dish arriving soon after one was almost finished.
I'm guessing you found the portions small, which is the nature of kaiseki. Each dish is maybe 3 or 4 small bites. Dessert is a small piece of seasonal fruit. The thing is, with so many dishes, you should end up feeling almsot full...but not full...that slightly "underfed" feeling is by design, to make you want to return for more (at another time).
I would have also expected them to explain what the dishes were to you...they do promise a cultural experience, and they do market heavily to foreign guests looking for an "experience." Every time we've stayed in a ryokan or onsen, as well as every time we've had a kaiseki meal, the dishes have been explained to us...we have always been asked if we needed explanation, and have felt free to ask questions. The majority of places I have gone do not see many non-Japanese guests, but I've never experienced silent service which you seem to have received.
I can understand your disappointment. It sounds like you paid a premium for location and for the English language website. I can say that your experience sounds unlike any ryokan experience I've ever had. I hope that someday you get the chance to try somewhere else and it is much, much better. I'm also wondering, was the only interaction you had with the staff choosing meal times? I've always been able to talk with the room staff, they've helped with wearing the yukata properly, explained the slipper system, gotten tea and drinks anytime. It doesn't sound like you really had any service at all. Am I understanding this correctly?
Thank you for your comments...I think many of here have been waiting to hear more.
Finally, on the subject of treatment of foreigners, mrwnrfl got it right. Different treatment/poor treatment of foreigners happens sometimes. There are places that have signs "no foreigners" and there are places that welcome them. Luckily the "no foreigners" places are not the majority. In the case of Yoshi-ima, it seems to me that they are very accustomed to foreigners and operate under the assumption that foreigners won't know a thing about the service they should receive in a ryokan so they can offer less service. They can charge a medium price because it is a nice looking place. I wonder how much of their business comes from tour groups...I'm thinking quite a bit. With a tour, the tour guide would do the explaining...the ryokan staff can relax.
I do understand them asking you to come back later at check-in...a bit. On their Japanese pages check-in time is listed as 4:00 pm and check-out at 10:00 am. I couldn't see this information on their English pages, and I don't know if they gave you that information when they confirmed your reservation. Check-in and check-out times are strictly enforced.
At check-in, you didn't have tea and a small sweet? This is usual and I'm surprised that you didn't have it.
The bathroom setup in the room is normal. The toilet is always in a seperate room from the bathtub...it's just how Japanese houses are. Probably because a bath is meant to take time for relaxing...and the toilet may need to be used during that time. My house has a bathroom with a tub and shower, attached to another room with a sink and our washing machine. We have two toilet rooms, one on the first floor and one on the second floor. The only place you'll find toilets and tubs together is in hotels and some mighty tiny apartments with unit baths.
Ryokan public baths can be lovely, or can be very simple as the one in Yoshi-ima was. It is the onsen ryokan/hotels that have the amazing baths.
The dinner service sounds horrible. The food I can't comment on, but the service just sounds abysmal. The meals can come on trays with a few dishes at a time, that's OK. Leaving the melon on the floor for you to serve yourself when you were ready is very poor. Also, if your meal time was 7:30 and you were finished in time for the tea ceremony at 8:00, that's just not the way it should be. A kaiseki meal is meant to take time, be served slowly, each dish tasted and enjoyed slowly. What it sounds like to me is that you had a "10 course" meal served in 2 courses. Better service would have had the dishes served one or two at a time as a relaxed pace, with the next dish arriving soon after one was almost finished.
I'm guessing you found the portions small, which is the nature of kaiseki. Each dish is maybe 3 or 4 small bites. Dessert is a small piece of seasonal fruit. The thing is, with so many dishes, you should end up feeling almsot full...but not full...that slightly "underfed" feeling is by design, to make you want to return for more (at another time).
I would have also expected them to explain what the dishes were to you...they do promise a cultural experience, and they do market heavily to foreign guests looking for an "experience." Every time we've stayed in a ryokan or onsen, as well as every time we've had a kaiseki meal, the dishes have been explained to us...we have always been asked if we needed explanation, and have felt free to ask questions. The majority of places I have gone do not see many non-Japanese guests, but I've never experienced silent service which you seem to have received.
I can understand your disappointment. It sounds like you paid a premium for location and for the English language website. I can say that your experience sounds unlike any ryokan experience I've ever had. I hope that someday you get the chance to try somewhere else and it is much, much better. I'm also wondering, was the only interaction you had with the staff choosing meal times? I've always been able to talk with the room staff, they've helped with wearing the yukata properly, explained the slipper system, gotten tea and drinks anytime. It doesn't sound like you really had any service at all. Am I understanding this correctly?
Thank you for your comments...I think many of here have been waiting to hear more.
Finally, on the subject of treatment of foreigners, mrwnrfl got it right. Different treatment/poor treatment of foreigners happens sometimes. There are places that have signs "no foreigners" and there are places that welcome them. Luckily the "no foreigners" places are not the majority. In the case of Yoshi-ima, it seems to me that they are very accustomed to foreigners and operate under the assumption that foreigners won't know a thing about the service they should receive in a ryokan so they can offer less service. They can charge a medium price because it is a nice looking place. I wonder how much of their business comes from tour groups...I'm thinking quite a bit. With a tour, the tour guide would do the explaining...the ryokan staff can relax.
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:42 PM
#39
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I am sorry I said 7.30 , it was 6.30, dinner was at 6.30.
Regarding the bath being in a separate room that the WC; I just love it!
At check in we were given a little ïnstructions book" with all the information regarding our stay: Yucata, food, bed, etc. It was nice, but then not that nice . A nice complement to a nice stay not for a "so-so" stay!
Sorry...I have to run!
Regarding the bath being in a separate room that the WC; I just love it!
At check in we were given a little ïnstructions book" with all the information regarding our stay: Yucata, food, bed, etc. It was nice, but then not that nice . A nice complement to a nice stay not for a "so-so" stay!
Sorry...I have to run!
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:03 PM
#40
The service you got was poor and not acceptable. Check-in at 6PM is a little late, but ok if that time and the meal time were arranged when you stopped in before 4PM. If you didn't schedule the times, then still ok because this is a place that caters to foreigners. They should know what to expect and how to cope with it.
