Tour Company vs Independant

Old Mar 8th, 2003, 07:55 AM
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Tour Company vs Independant

We have been reasearching a private trip to Beijing, Shanghai and Guilin for our family. When discussing itineraries with the big tour companies (A&K, etc.), they all seem to justify rather extraordinary mark-ups by claiming that 1) airport transfers are not predictable and 2) you'll be less likely to find good guides if you just book through hotels. The companies claim that their experience and volume is the best guarantee against getting guides who will just want to take you to touristy spots and restaurants. However, my understanding is that everybody -- even the tour companies -- have to use government tour agenices while in China. So, the question is: can one make good arrangements for these three destinations -- and get good guides -- directly through first class hotels such as the St. Regis in Beijing and the Grand Hyatt in Shanghai?
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Old Mar 8th, 2003, 08:23 AM
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I'm wondering the same thing. I'm getting mixed signals from posters here, including Peter who seems to insist to never use any guides at all. I really prefer to do my own thing and will probably end up traveling independently and will be booking similar hotels to you -- and have found the hotel prices seem amazingly cheap compared to the overall per day cost of the big tour companies (allowing for all the other things). Cost really isn't my issue, but like you, I wonder how successfully we novices who don't speak a word of Chinese will be able to really get the full benefit of the culture and backgrounds of the sites we visit without guides. How much time will we lose (although we're not planning to rush it) by spending time comparing prices for transportation, booking tickets, and looking for where we are going? We previously visited Tokyo, Taipei, Singapore, and Hong Kong totally on our own and had no problems at all -- but some of "rural" China seems like it will be a different matter. And although I did an amazing amount of studying and planning before going, I feel we probably missed a lot when we didn't have a guide. Some of best days were when we did hire a guide and learned a whole lot more than the guidebooks ever taught us, including an amazing day through a couple of gorges in Taiwan that we never ever would have accomplished half as much on our own as with a booked guide through our hotel.
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Old Mar 8th, 2003, 09:12 AM
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I've just topped (moved to the top of the list) a topic entitled Using Guides in Beijing, which contains two long postings discussing the problem with guides in China in general, as well as others' points of view.

A&K is well-known for providing the most upmarket everything on its tours, with corresponding expense. But it does maintain an office in Beijing, and were you to book through them probably everything would go very smoothly. Regulations on who can buy what from whom are slowly being relaxed (thank you, WTO) but most tour companies will continue to buy from the state monoliths (there are one or two canny companies who've been getting round these regulations for years, however) because they don't have any particular reason to change. The state companies vastly overcharge them, they add a percentage, and there are still many postings here remarking on how cheap tours to China are.

Airport transfers are hardly difficult at what may be the three most visited destinations in China. There are airport limousine buses, limitless taxis, and major hotels run shuttle services or will send cars specifically for you. It is completely predictable that if you have money, there will be someone to take you downtown.

'Good guides' are practically impossible to find in China. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have one, but your expectation of the degree to which they can enrich your experience should be modest. The enrichment is all the other way. But see the posting above.

You can book guides through an hotel, but if A&K claim that you'll have a better experience by booking one through them, they are probably right. The trade-off for only going where you want to go, is that you pay a lot more. But don't expect the guide to supply new and surprising suggestions anyway. It won't happen.

Peter N-H
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Old Mar 8th, 2003, 09:20 AM
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I can't answer your question, but I suggest that you also consider making arrangements for transfers and guides through a less expensive company (Pacific Delights, Uniworld, Globus, CITI, etc), or even your local travel agent. Having arrangements before you get there would relieve part of the worry. Getting through the airport and on the plane in China can be more of a problem than in Europe. Also, I'm not sure you would save much money making hotel and air reservations by yourself.

We took a set tour with Uniworld, and friends took a private tour with pre-arrangements through their travel agent. Both worked out fine. I suspect that A&K would also take you to touristy spots and restaurants.

When I consider how much we got for the money with Uniworld, I am still perplexed.
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Old Mar 9th, 2003, 02:23 PM
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As someone who has travelled to China, I don't know how you would get from point A to point B without a guide.(It was a nightmare going trough the airport at Guilin. The authorities made me fill out a card stating my "diseases." Half way through filling it out a guard came over and ripped the card up and told me to move on.) If you have a lot of time, it would be fine. But, as a seasoned traveller, I have learned that the best value a guide provides is time. Beijing and Shanghai are cosmopolitan cities that you can maneuver on you own, but Guilin is another story. Are you going on a Li River cruise? Who is going to arrange that? These are things a guide can arrange for you, especially driving you to and fro strange places when you have limited time.
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Old Mar 9th, 2003, 04:02 PM
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I went to China last fall on an independent tour with my husband. We worked with Helen at China Custom Tours and were very pleased with our trip. Our itinerary included Beijing, Xian, Guilin, Yangshuo, and Hong Kong. http://www.chinacustomtours.com/2003/
We were met at each of the airports by a guide and went on small group day tours in each city. We also had some free days to explore some of the cities on our own. In Guilin, the manager of the Multi Services department at the CYTS tour company met us at the airport. I'm not sure if CYTS is the same at CITS, but that's what is on his business card. He said that during the peak season all of their guides are busy, so he had to meet tourists and guide them too. He was a really nice man and a wonderful guide. Liao said if we ever came back to China that he could design a trip for us. His name was Liao Jin Fu, his email is [email protected]. You may want to contact him at least for the Guilin portion of your trip. I'd check with China Custom Tours too.
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Old Mar 9th, 2003, 04:41 PM
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You have to ask yourself what it is you think a guide can help you with, and then judge whether you are the kind of person who needs what a guide in China can offer.

Do you need a guide to help you get around? Not really, and certainly not in the destinations you list. To take Beijing as an example, there are 67,500 taxis, more than happy to take you wherever you want to go. Ask your hotel for a car and driver for the day, and you may be quoted Y1200, as I was the other day. Simple flag down a taxi and show the driver the characters for your destination, down goes the meter, and off you go. Do the same for each successive destination and you'll pay perhaps Y200 altogether. Take the guide with your hotel car, and you'll be faced with yet further costs, side trips to ensure you at least enter various shops (guide and driver get a payment, guide gets a large percentage if you buy anything) and taken to his choice of restaurant for lunch, rather than your own (and for the same kick-back reasons). Guides make a very substantial income this way, and the reason why they cost so much if booked through someone like A&K is partly that you're paying to be taken where you want to go and nowhere else, which the company guarantees. So if you don't pay a large fee up-front you won't get a guide. Book through an hotel and you may both pay a large fee up-front and still be misdirected.

Do you need a guide to take you places you wouldn't find for yourself? No, because that won't happen--there's no profit in it, and guides don't keep up with those new trendy lake-side bars around Hou Hai, or the most recently re-opened temples. They just deal in the straightforward major sights (and places which provide kick-backs). You'll find out much more about what your choices are by doing some reading before you go, and by picking up the expat-produced English-language free magazines in your hotel lobbies in Beijing and Shanghai. They provide reviews of all the best restaurants, and do features on new openings, usually giving the address in Chinese characters which you can then show to your cabbie.

Will the guide enrich your experience? Not likely. The tendency is to tell you what you want to hear, and whatever will impress you the most. Very few have much idea of their country's history, and what they tell you you can often read for yourself on signs at sights, although there's little accuracy in either case. Background reading materials you bring from home will contain more, and more accurate information than anyone will tell you.

Can a case nevertheless be made for hiring a guide? Of course it can. If, like the 'seasoned traveller' in the post-but-one above, you need to have your hand held to get through an airport (and one which receives more foreign visitors per annum than almost any other China), then clearly a guide is a good idea, and that's fine.

But there are also plenty of middle ways. Many hotels in your three destinations run airport shuttles, or will send a car for you, and so once into the arrivals lounge there's someone with a piece of card with your name on. If you need tickets for a cruise, or to make reservations for a restaurant, the reception desk staff, concierge, and travel desk at your hotel will all be happy to help for a fee.

Peter N-H
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Old Mar 10th, 2003, 04:29 AM
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If you just want to go to those three cities, go independent. Good hotels can and will make all the arrangements you want. The difference in price is amazing. We costed out going to Angkor Wat with A&K (and a bunch of other companies) and going ourselves. We stayed at the Raffles hotel and had them provide a car, driver, guide. It did not cost half what a tour company charged. FYI..at that time (January) Raffles prices included breakfast and dinner. But for China we took our first tour because we wanted to do more cities in a concentrated time. We did go to Beijing 5 days before the tour and the Palace Hotel made all the arrangements we needed. We did not use a guide in Beijing except to be driven to the Great Wall. The hotel arranged both a driver and a guide. We certainly did not need the guide. But we did not know that. Email the hotel in Guilin to arrange the Li River tour. I think all the boats that take Western tourists are kinda the same. When you get off the boat, take a motorcycle tour thru the countryside. Excellent. My husband thought the motorcycle tour was the best thing we did in China. If you want a guide, these hotels will have good contacts.
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Old Mar 11th, 2003, 05:17 PM
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There are two separate issues here -- infrastructure (bookings, getting around, etc), and information. I have a question about the latter.

Lots of tourist sites have audio tours -- the standard headset w/a canned spiel. Would there be a market for one of these on a grander scale: say, everything you wanted to know about Beijing? Handheld computers are getting pretty powerful, and you can even use a GPS component to tell you where you are. Imagine if you could turn on a PDA and it told you "Hey, you're at the Ming Tombs...click on a part of this map for a guide..."

Would people use these?
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Old Mar 14th, 2003, 03:00 PM
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All of the cities you mentioned are easy to do on your own. Within Shanghai and Beijing (haven't been to Guilin), you can easily navigate and tour on your own with a guidebook. Most streets and subway stations are fairly well marked with pinyin (phonetic version of Chinese spelled using our alphabet). You may want to book a tour or guide when venturing outside of the city depending on your comfort level.

The most hassle free (but possibly most expensive) way to travel independently is to have your hotel arrange everything for you. It may still cost less than a tour though, and you're not stuck with the group. Last year my parents booked a package thru the Sheraton Guilin for their stay. If I remember correctly, they paid around US400 for 2 nights, breakfast, airport transfers, Li River cruise one day, and a city tour the next day. I'm sure you can do better on your own but they were happy to have everything taken care of.

At the airport, always stick with the official taxi queues. Look for the line outside, it should be pretty obvious. If you're flying into Shanghai's Pudong airport, you may even want to try the new maglev train which connects you with metro line 2 (I believe at the last stop in Pudong, not positive about this).

In Shanghai, I've used Jin Jiang Optional Tours [email protected] which offers group and private tours. My group consisted of about 12-14 in a minibus. Group tours board at the Yangtze New World, Jin Jiang Tower, or Portman Ritz Carlton.
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Old Mar 14th, 2003, 11:58 PM
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I just returned from a trip to Beijing and we stayed at the Crowne Plaza and simply used the tour operator (Panda Tours-state run) that was in the lobby. It was easy and very beneficial. I travel a bit through asia and was amazed how few people speak english in Beijing, being such a large city. We booked the flight and hotel before hand and the daily outing stuff we did right at the hotel lobby. It worked out fine. The biggest trick for getting around is to find the name of the hotel written in madarin before hand so you can just show it to the cab driver and you'll get to where you are going.Get this for all the hotels you are going to stay at before you go and you never have a problem getting to your hotle from the airpor t or train station. From the hotel you can get the front desk people to write out the names of the places you want to go, resturaunt, etc. and you get there also. The domestic airports are challenging but just remember to arrive early and you'll eventually make it to where you are going. Travel light when flying inside china because they will hit you with a excess baggage charge for anything over 20kgs/person, regardless of the number of pieces. China is a very safe place still, very little crime, so you just need patience when you move around. We really learned a lot about china, ancient and modern from our daily tour gude. A great investment! I recomend you do your general travel plans yourself and use the guides for daily outings. Enjoy!
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 08:50 AM
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I can't imagine getting around in China from city to city and tour attraction to tour attraction without having a tour guide. Even if funds were not an issue, I strongly recommend a tour at least the first trip to china. The traffic is horendous in EVERY city and everything is in Chinese. Take a tour the first time and really get a feel for what China is all about. Beijing, Xian, Guilin, and Shanghai and of course a cruise on the Yantsee River are all must first see destinations. Take a look at the itineraries with China Focus Tours out of San Francisco and with the money you save you can take ANOTHER equivalent trip to another part of the world. It's really best to be shepherded from point to point....on a tour they take care of all the petty stuff and all you do is run to the plane or bus or whatever!!!! There is no way on earth you can see all without a tour guide that is experienced in their city and OUR language. There is no hanging around in airports....the tour is a forced march but you see so much. We usually like to travel independently but in China, it's best to let them do it all. Take a look at their website before you book anything. First class tour - we paid $2600 for 22 days and it included EVERYTHING....air, (4 flights within china) 4 star hotels, 4 day cruise on the Yantzee river, all food (3 meals a day), tours, shows, and professional tour guides in each city. When we arrived we were not hit with ALL THE OPTIONAL EXTRAS. Even tips were included. Take a look before you book a self guided tour.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 09:42 AM
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If you are the kind of person who likes to have everything organized, then take a tour. Tens of thousands of people with no Mandarin whatsoever travel independently around China at every level from no-star to five-star, so clearly it can be done. If you can get yourself around France without a guide, you can get yourself around China. This is merely about your attitude towards travel. For some getting around by themselves is part of the fun, and part of discovering 'real' China. For others its a niusance. If you prefer a tour for its convenience, and will happily put up with its inconveniences, too, then take a tour. But it isn't the only way.

Before assuming that tours are cheaper than independent travel it might possibly be best to do some independent travel in China. Ground handling companies are taking a hefty profit even before your travel company adds their costs and margin, and with the possible sole exception of the international airfare, where tour operators can obtain a bulk purchase discount a little lower than the best fare you can get from a consolidator, you can organize every element of a tour more cheaply yourself on the ground. You also have the flexibility of going when and where you please. You will not be able to do as much in the same period of time, but then it's often suggested that the pace of some tours is rather frantic.

In cost terms, don't forget to add in many hidden extras, such as huge mark-ups in the shops to which you are ushered (if you shop there), tips (completely unnecessary in China--the tour company is merely passing on costs through the back door), and myriad pieces of petty overcharging (the mineral water scam, etc.). In general, the cheaper the tour, the more of this sort of thing you'll see.

Convenience, and seeing the maximum number of sites in a short time, is an argument for taking a tour. Economy, and freedom to do exactly as you please, are arguments for travelling independently. And in China that's just as possible as it is everywhere else, with or without a 'guide'.

Peter N-H
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 11:44 AM
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More and more I'm figuring that Peter sees travel as a two sided only type deal. Either you have everything planned by someone else and do a tour, or you totally "wing" it, make no real plans, and buy all your tickets, pick your hotels, and make decisions as you go. I am an independent traveler and hate organized tours. Although my experience is primarily in Europe, I disagree that if you do it all yourself it cannot also be planned, or that the only way you can do a fully planned trip is to take a tour. When I go to Europe for months at a time, I always have my hotels prebooked, which I've done after much study to know exactly where I want to stay (this is important to me, I'm not comfortable with just any old roof over my head). And if I have planned pretty significantly, I usually hit the nail on the head with exactly how many days I'll want to be in one place. This doesn't mean I can't change my mind as I go if something really holds me in a particular spot for an extra day -- I simply call ahead and cancel a day at my next stop.

While totally winging it may be fun to some, I don't relish the idea of spending half my vacation time, wandering around pricing tickets and tours from a number of agencies and other places. I know how that goes. Wait for a half hour for the next person available to talk to you, spend a half hour or so getting some information, then going somewhere else and doing it all over again to see if you get a better price. Meanwhile you've lost the better part of a day of actual sightseeing. And I have no desire in the world to arrive at a city and randomly go from hotel to hotel trying to bargain for a room and spending half the day before making a decision. I want to arrive in a city, know where I'm staying and go right there so I can begin my "sightseeing".
If it cost me $125 by booking ahead with a hotel instead of getting there and bargaining them down to $90, I really don't care. I think the time I've saved to actually enjoy that city is worth the extra $35, not to mention the efforts of taking taxis or busses or whatever lugging my luggage around looking for a hotel to choose.

While my experience in Asia is limited, I did do my own thing, prebooking hotels and major transportation in advance for a trip to Tokyo, Taipei, Singapore, and Hong Kong a few years ago. I got along great my myself, experimenting and learning about the transportation systems, seeking out my own restaurants, and following my own instincts and a couple of decent guide books rather than ever hiring a guide. Next year I hope to do the same thing in China, Thailand, and Viet Nam. I don't plan on taking a guided tour, but with the help and advice of others I do plan to prebook most of my hotels -- it's just a preference I have. And while Peter or others may think I'm crazy for prebooking the exact type of compartment on a specific train that I want to do, I plan to do so rather than getting stuck just taking whatever car and/or berth is available at the last minute, just to save a few bucks.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 12:16 PM
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Maggiep, I think you can do it on your own, just allow a bit more time than a tour would. I bet the guides you can get once you're there will be as good as the ones a tour co might have. You can book your hotels in advance and they can arrange your airport transfers which I'm sure will be very dependable. Tour companies will tell you whatever they can to make you sign with them.
 
Old Mar 15th, 2003, 12:19 PM
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In reviewing my post, I fear that it may sound like a "slam" against Peter's advice. I don't mean it to be that. It's just that when he said "if you are the kind of person who likes to have everything organized take a tour". I don't agree with that. I think it's perfectly possible to be organized by yourself and do your own organization and still have a great time without a tour.
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Old Mar 16th, 2003, 06:58 AM
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I do the same thing as Patrick. First of all, I like the security of knowing that I have my hotel booked. I do not want to spend time looking around and finding that somthing looks good but does not have room for me. Between guide books and websites, its easy to book hotels and I find I get good rates. Maybe not the best, but good enough. I do not bother with plans for restaurants because they never seem to be convenient to where I am. Lots of good restaurant recomendations onsite. I always book intercity transportation. Again it can usually be changed if necessary. After that, it's ad hoc. I enjoy the planning. If people do not want to bother with making these plans, that's what tour groups are for. But I have found that many (not all) travel agents do not have the in depth knowledge of the area that I require. My worst travel disasters have all been from travel agent arrangements. Example, a hotel in Costa Rica under construction that had hosted the travel agent and insisted it would be complete..not!! No seat reservation on flight from NYC to Prague made far in advance...middle seat of a 5 group, paying 5 times the going rate for transportation between 2 cities in Peru. Now I do it on my own.
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 09:22 AM
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fatherofPeter, I'm assuming you mean "bible". I signed up for that website's "newsletter" and visited the site itself and it is indeed helpful. But it is far from what I would call my "bible". Peter's way of traveling and mine are apparently far different. Although I like doing my own thing and also don't like tours organized by others, I DO like organization to my travels. I DO like knowing where I'm going to stay. I DO want to know in advance how I'm getting from city to city at least. I'm not so "free-spirited" that I am comfortable just arriving in a city and spending hours looking for and pricing various hotels in order to save a few dollars, or spending a day "shopping" for the best train or plane tickets to my next destination. I'd rather spend whatever limited time I have at my destination actually enjoying that destination instead of trying to organize the many required details of the trip itself.
I'm finding out more and more here that many specific hotels need to be booked in advance if you really want to stay there. Peter would say, "don't worry, if it's full just go somewhere else", but if my plans for a trip to Shanghai are specifically enhanced by a stay at the Grand Hyatt, then that's where I want to stay, not just "any old place" that happens to be available and offers a deal.
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 01:34 PM
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How strange. My last post was in reference to one just before it from someone called "fatherofpeter". I guess Fodors decided to delete his post, maybe considering advertising of Peter's website. So my post doesn't make much sense now.
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Old Mar 18th, 2003, 05:42 PM
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Yes, it is easy to disparage procuring a guide for your travel convenience and education, especially if you are a mercenary author trying to foist your inane travel guides on people. (Travel guides that no one, save the perusers of dust bins, have ever heard of. Dorling Kindersley has nothing to lose sleep over.)
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