Hi Everyone,

I've been reading through the posts for Thailand/Cambodia religiously, and was hoping to get your opinion(s) - and restaurant recommendations - on my upcoming trip, Dec. 22 - Jan. 10 (fly home Jan. 11).

Dec. 22
Arrive BKK ~6:00 PM
Staying at Sofitel Silom
Dinner and good night's rest!

Dec. 23
Bangkok city wandering

Dec. 24
Open to suggestion...have a few ideas, and want to head outside of the city proper, but would love to hear some favorites

Dec. 25
BKK - Chiang Mai (arrive ~9:15 AM)
CM wandering
Staying at Sira Boutique

Dec. 26
1-day Mahout Training at TECC

Dec. 27
Considering a day of pampering at a spa - thoughts on Oasis??

Dec. 28 - Dec. 30
Here's where it gets tricky. I've spoken with Sgt. Kai, based on the recommendations here and a few other tour guides, but am a bit overwhelmed. Very much interested in wats, hill tribes, the state park (hiking), and checking out bordering towns that aren't just "border market" traps, etc. Not so much anything else with animals! Off the beaten path is much preferred to general tourist traps...

Dec. 31
Any suggestions for NYE celebrations??

Jan. 1
Early pick-up transfer to Chiang Rai; sightseeing along the way
Staying at Dusit Island

Jan. 2 - 3
Sightseeing in Chiang Rai/Golden Triangle with guide

Jan. 4
CR - DMK (arrive ~ 12:30pm)
Transfer to Sheraton Hua Hin
Down time...

Jan. 5 - 6
Cha-Am/Hua Hin relaxation con't ;-)

Jan. 7
Early AM transfer to Bangkok

That evening I fly to Siem Reap. I've booked Dara (Ponheary's brother - thanks guys!), and am staying at Shinta Mani. I'm flying back to BKK eveningish on Jan. 10, so I could fit a few things in early morning. I get into BKK around 7pm, so I’m staying at the Novotel, as I fly out at 11:50 the next morning…

With this said, my sister is flying out of BKK on the morning flight on Jan. 8…would it be worth it for her to stay in the city or by the airport as she has the whole day/night in Bangkok when I leave for SR?

Thanks so much and I look forward to hearing from you guys!!

This looks good. You must have read a bunch of reports.

For NYE, your hotel may already have a "Gala dinner" as a mandatory event/purchase.

For 12/24/08, you could go try to see if Tong could provide a guide. her associates have all gotten very good reviews. She can be reached at TourwithTong.com. It's late, but give it a try.

A few comments:

Oasis Spa is very nice. As you fly into CM, there are discount coupons at the airport baggage claim area for Oasis.

If you are really interested in hilltribes, you'll need to do an overnight trek to visit tribes that have some of their traditional culture intact. I expect you've read the comments about the hilltribe visits you can drive to or only walk an hour in... Sgt. Kai has arranged such overnight treks for others.

None of the border towns (Laos or Burma) are more than border towns. I wouldn't bother.

Thanks for the replies!

...Our hotel doesn't have a mandatory dinner/gala...well, none that they've mentioned in our e-mail exchanges yet...

Even so, I think I'd like to get out (even if there's a fee) for NYE...

My son did a 3 day trek arranged through Sergeant Kai. He loved it. A walk way back into the hills.

For NYE, check to see what they're doing at Piccolo Roma, a very good Italian restaurant.

There is an excellent restaurant at the top (?) of your Silom Sofitel hotel. It's called V9. You might consider that for your first night in Bangkok. At least it's really close! You may be jetlagged and want to get to bed early (?).

I wonder if CM has fireworks along the river on New Years Eve. I've only been on Phuket for NYE, and this year will be in Pattaya for the celebration there. If CM has fireworks, there is a nice Italian restaurant right along the riverside. The name is La Gondola. We try to eat there each time we are staying in CM for a couple of days.

Enjoy your trip! You will be in the city the same time as a few others of us here on this board. We are having a GTG (get together) right before you arrive (sigh) on the 21st...

But, I'll be in the city until Jan 7, other than my couple of days at Pattaya. We might meet and say hello over cocktails or something, between your arrival in BKK and departure from there on Dec 25. Just a thought!

Have a wonderful time. Your plans sound excellent IMO.

Carol

for your sister i think she might like being in town that last day...depending on her interests she could stay along the river or along sukhumvit or some other area where she could walk out to shop or eat...

the rest looks good to me, but very busy...

Hi Everyone,

Thanks again for your replies! I'll go through each, then - sorry! - I have another question...

Gpanda - Thanks for the recommendation for Tong, I dropped an e-mail, so fingers crossed. This may be a stupid question, but should I be calling the CM restaurants to make reservations for NYE now, or can I wait until I get there?

Kathie - Made a note to check for the coupons! Can't go wrong with that. Not sure about the overnight, but will skip the border towns (though see below re: Lao village...)

Carol - I saw the postings re: the GTG and was disappointed, let's chat offline about possibly meeting up in BKK. Also, good to know about the hotel's restaurant - I'm sure we'll be thankful for the quick commute!

rhkkmk - Thanks much...We'll take a look at some hotels for my sister for the last day...she'll definitely have some time to lazy around the city...

New Question...I've been in touch with Sgt. Kai, and wanted your opinion on the below. I've made some changes to it, and am not sure about a few items (see caps), or if we're missing anything. With this itinerary, we'll have a little over 2 days on our own to check out CM's surrounidng area, city, temples, etc. So sorry to drive you guys up the wall, but I just want to make sure to fit in as much as we can.

Day 1 Sun 28th Dec
Suthep Mountain to the west of the city. Near the summit is the magnificent Wat Phra That Doi Suthep. This temple, one of the most important of the province, and an enduring symbol of Chiang Mai, is a place of fascinating history and legends. The temple grounds afford excellent views over Chiang Mai city and valley. <CAN THIS BE DONE ON OUR OWN/IS THERE A BENEFIT TO GOING WITH HIM? HEAD OUT EARLY AM TO AVOID CROWDS? >

Day 2 Mon 29th Dec
Leave hotel at 8.00 am for the journey south to the Doi Inthanon, Thailand's highest mountain. Travel through the luscious forest on the way up the mountain to visit a spectacular waterfall before heading upwards to visit the Twin Chedis those Thai people built up to honor the King and the Queen before moving on to visit the Hmong and a Karen villages that you will experience the authentic tribal lifestyle before heading back to the city in the evening. Remark: If you like to do some hiking, there are many beautiful trails in the park that you can enjoy hiking for a couple of hours. <WILL MOST LIKELY TAKE HIM UP ON THIS...>

Day 3 Tue 30th Dec
Leave from Chiang Mai in the morning head north for 30 minutes to visit the Orchid farm <IS THIS EVEN WORTH A TRIP??> before moving on to visit a Tribal School on the mountain in Chiang Dao village. Afterwards you will visit Chiang Dao cave that filled with grottos and a lot of Buddha images. From there on you will further move on to visit a Lisu Tribal village before heading back to Chiang Mai in the evening.

Day 4 Thu 1st Jan
You will head northward to Chiang Rai. on the way stop off to visit Wat Rong Khun which is under construction under the supervision of one of the greatest artists of Thailand before moving on to the Golden triangle where Thai, Laos and Myanmar meet. You will take a long tail boat to visit a lao village. <IS IT NECESSARY TO CONFIRM IT'S A PRIVATE LONG TAIL/SEMI PRIVATE? I KNOW THEY CAN BE OVERCROWDED. ALSO, RE: THE LAO VILLAGE...IS IT WORTH IT? I READ SOMEWHERE ABOUT A FLOATING MARKET-TYPE ISLAND WHICH SEEMED "CUTE"?>
Hotel in Chiang Rai

Day 5 Fri 2nd Jan
Leave from hotel in the morning to the north for app 1.30 hours to visit Doi Tung Royal villa where the Princess mother used to stay when she was alive (here is the most beautiful flower garden in Thailand). <AGAIN, NOT HUGE INTO BOTANY IS IT WORTH A VISIT?>
Afterwards, you will head up to Doi Mae Salong, the Chinese Community to visit the beautiful tea plantation that you will try some delicious tea directly from the village. <DOESN'T SOUND TOO EXCITING...?>
You will visit an Akha Tribal village before heading back to hotel

Day 6 Sat 3rd Jan
One Day Trekking
Leave from hotel in the morning by a long tail boat along the Mae Kok river (Mae Kok river is one of the most unspoiled rivers in Thailand) you will ride an elephant up the mountain for app 2 hours to a beautiful Lahu tribal village. Lunch will be prepared in the village. After that you will hike down the mountain for app 1 hour to a waterfall for some relaxation. You will head back to hotel in the afternoon. <IS THIS HILL TRIBE OVERKILL? WE'RE ALSO WORKING W/ELEPHANTS FOR A DAY EARLIER ON, SO IF THAT'S THE "HIGHLIGHT...?" THE MOUNTAIN HIKE SOUNDS NICE, BUT IF ANY/WHICH TRIBES CAN/SHOULD BE CUT??>

i would make reservations now

Hi J:
'Off the beaten path is much preferred to general tourist traps...'

I'm totally supportive here but I gotta say that IMHO your Nth. Thailand itinerary is a parade of tourist traps from beginning to end. Having endured a very similar trip and hated it let me say that you have to be on your guard.

Anything to do with orchids, flowers and the Thai Royal family is [how can I put this... err..] really kinda dull. My companion was reduced to bitter tears of disappointment when she saw the 'authentic hill tribes'...

I do urge you to find a recent post in here about the hill tribes. Unless you hike in and stay you haven't a hope of being anything other than the one thousandth tourist visiting that week. Fact.

You are dead centre of that endless tourist flow - work on the assumption that your guides will assume that you are one of them and will shlep you around with that mindset. As its your personal tour you can tweak that on the road - in effect, train your guide. But you have to prepared to say 'no'.

From your posts you seem to be that kinda person. Bravo. 'No' is a great word. But you have to have done some proper research so you can offer alternatives. Sometimes a morning at the market can be more instructive and fun than a trip to the King's sisters flower garden.
Lol. Well, I think that's a no brainer.

Check you travel times on January 1.
Someone correct me here but I recall
Chaing Mai to Chiang Rai is about 3 hours from memory, plus stops on the way - then up to Golden triangle - that's 75 mins [?] THEN a long-boat ride [an hour] to your 'authentic hill-tribe village' then back an hour to Golden Triangle then back 75 mins to Chiang Rai. Correct me if I'm wrong.. but ain't that 7 - 8 hours traveling? PLUS your fabulous sightseeing. O.k. - if that's what you want..

I hope I'm not putting you off too much - you can achieve anything you want to do but be aware - you won't be treading virgin territory here - not for one instant. The real issue here will be the ability and temperament of your guides and how you negotiate with them. That's an art in Asia.

Sgt. Kai comes well recommended so I don't see you'll have problems - but surely, please God, aren't there more interesting things to do than submit to the orchid farms, tea-buying opportunities and hill-tribe horror that await you?

Here's a lateral thought: go here
www.travelpod.com
do a search on where you want to go.
[hill tribes Thailand for eg.]
You never know, that might help with your thinking.

I would see if Sergeant Kai can give you an overnight among the hill tribes. This would be much more likely to result in an "off the beaten path" experience.

I fear that dogster has been too gentle and subtle in his feedback. If you don't want to spend all of your time visiting tourist traps, then don't go on this trip.

Here is my specific feedback:

Doi Suthep. Absolutely NO need for a guide. Take a taxi, get there as early as possible in the morning.

Hill tribe villages on Monday are totally tourist traps - no semblence of any part of the traditional life ways are preserved. IF YOU WANT TO SEE REAL HILLTRIBE VILLAGES, YOU MUST DO AN OVERNIGHT TREK. Sgt. Kai can arrange this, and has gotten good reviews for these overnight treks.

Orchid farm is a total tourist trap - is was when I visited over 20 years ago... I grow orchids, and I wouldn't recommend this stop. On this day, too, your hilltribe villages are very sorry things, indeed. I wouldn't go.

Jan 1 - the longtail you take will be private. I liked spending a little time on the river. The "Lao Village" is NOT worth a stop. It's not a Lao Village, just a bunch of tables under tarps selling VERY poorly made western goods. There was no floating market there when I was there, and if there is one now it is for your benefit - you can buy entirely worthless tourist tat at vastly inflated prices because it's a "Floating Market." Anything that says floating market - just think of it as having foot-high red lettering saying tourist trap and you'll be right.

Jan 2. I enjoyed the visit to Doi Tong. This is a large economic re-development project sponsored by teh (now deceased) Princess mother. If you go, visit the workshops - paper making, coffee roasting, etc. When we were there, they weren't even set up to seel goods to us, and had to find a bag to put the freshly roasted coffee beans into when Cheryl wanted to buy some. The garden at the top of teh hill is lovely, indeed, and if you like gardening, you'll enjoy it, but if not... The Princess Mother's home is intersting. SHe was always very interested in ecology and preserving the beauty of the area. Her home initially struck me as quite odd, as it was all "knotty pine" inside. However, I learned that it was made of packing crates as she didn't want to waste wood. Intersting, but if my description doesn't interest you the estate wouldn't either. the views from the hilltop are lovely, though.

By the way, there is a top-flight Opium Museum in the area (across the road from the entrance to the Anantara) which is worth a stop.

If you want to interact with elephants, go to the Thai Elephant Conservation Center outside CM, or stay at the Anantara at teh Golden Triangle wher they have a small branch of the TECC.

So Sgt Kai has (as he is expected to do) arranged a trip that goes from one tourist trap to another. If you want something different you'll have to ask for it. He is capable of getting you off the tourist track, but you'll have to be willing to do overnight trekking.

Another option to consider: do the loop through Mae Hong Son and Pai.

You know, you have almost no time in Bangkok. If you enjoy cities at all, you'll wish you had more time there. Bangkok is a fascinating city, and it is remarkably easy to get off the tourist track. Just visit a wat not in the "top 5" and you'll be the only westerner there, observing locals making offerings, perhaps listening to teh chanting of the monks. Wander down side streets were you see no other westerners, and look at storefronts selling only one thing - bicycle pedals, perhaps, or large spools of wire, or ?

Know that Chiang Mai itself is a huge, sprawling sity with worse air pollution than Bangkok.

Oops - I see from your original itinerary that you are doing the mahout training at the TECC. Good choice. I wouldn't do the "Elephant Trek" if you are doing that. Frankly, you only need Sgt. Kai's assistance to do an overnight trek to a hill tribe and maybe hiking at Doi Inthanon. Everthing else you can do on your own (or avoid!).

If this all sounds a bit rabid on my part, I guess it's because I so often see people who want to visit Northern Thailand to see the "real Thailand" and are just dragged from one tourist trap to another.

Well, that's a first! 'too gentle & subtle! lol. Moi?

Maybe, by accident, I was - I'll try never to do it again. lol.

But Kathie's right, 100%. Frankly, everything that your good Sgt. has suggested looks like the worst kind of bland-out sub-tourist crap they foist on elderly Japanese tour groups. I'd ditch him and just bum around yourself - but that's me. I ain't you.

I know you got those hill tribes in your head - but, you know, it's an old myth that has leaked down thru the years. Of course, it's in everybody's interests to perpetuate it. It's been a decade or more since they were destroyed. Don't fall for it.

But everybody does.

Ha - well, I will be back with a new full post because I know how much you all are enjoying helping me;-) And, I've scratched most of Sgt. Kai’s itinerary (the orchids and tea really aren't our thing).

But, I was responding to dogster's original post before I read the others and made mention that I was pleased to see I made it through virtually unscathed!! Maybe it's because he knows I really did the research but am overwhelmed? (sympathy, anyone?)

Be back soon with a less Disney-like itinerary, hopefully. Although I know one part is definitely going to get some hokey comments!

J1821,
Carol (my Mom) is in Germany so she may not reply for a while. As for a GTG while you are in BKK, we should be able to do that.

Maybe Tawan Dang? I think its the most fun place in town, and I'm a member. Mom loves it.

I know it's overwhelming. I hope you could hear me chuckling as I typed.

Kathie – Really appreciate the feedback, hopefully I’ll be able to offer similar advice upon my return. I kept going back and forth re: Bangkok, and heard mixed reviews about how long to stay. Your “wandering plan” sounds perfect – hopefully our first day will be similar...Get lost, but not super lost And, if I don’t get my fill, at least it’s an excuse to go back!

I had also considered Mae Hong Son, but don’t know how to pack it all in…

Brad – (Hi) Sure, we’re up for it! Which works better for you – Dec. 23 or 24?

rhkkmk – Sent a few e-mails for reservations, and am going to make some calls tonight, so thanks!

dogster – Fingers crossed for a second round of testing…

(If I missed anyone else – thank you!)

So here’s my latest attempt…I know the hill tribes are still there, but you have to do something touristy, I guess, right? As my dreams of visiting Myanmar or Laos have been dashed (ha), let me at least have my “authentic” tribal photos!

Day 1 Thurs., Dec. 25
Chiang Mai temple/city sightseeing on own

Day 2 Fri., Dec. 26
TECC for Mahout training

Day 3 Sat., Dec. 27
Visit Chiang Dao Caves (Sgt. Kai has a trip to a Chiang Dao Tribal School along the way)

I ACTUALLY HAD THE CAVES ON MY “TO DO LIST,” SO, IF I HAVE TO HIRE A DRIVER, IS IT WORTH JUST GOING WITH SGT. KAI?

IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE TO SEE/DO ALONG THE WAY/IN THE AREA?

Day 4 Sun., Dec. 28
Doi Suthep on own

Day 5 Mon., Dec. 29
<WHERE I EXPECT TO RECEIVE COMMENTS>
I’d like to do the 9 (er, 8 in this case) sacred temple “pilgrimage” for luck in CM, and figure we can walk/hire a driver. Realistically, how long do you think this would take if we head out early morning?

We’ll be visiting others along the way, but here are the last of them:
·Wat Chiang Man
·Wat Phra Sing
·Wat Chedi Luang
·Wat Chaimongkon
·Wat Loi Kroh
·Wat Dab Pai
·Wat Chiang Yuen
·Wat Muen Ngoen Khong

Day 6 Tues., Dec. 30
Doi Inthanon and Karen/Hmong villages en route with Sgt. Kai
<Don't think the overnight trek is happening, but thank you Gpanda>

Day 7 Wed., Dec. 31
SPA & NYE

Day 8 Thurs., Jan. 1
Head to Chiang Rai with Sgt. Kai and visit Wat Rong Khun.

ANY OTHER POINTS OF INTEREST ALONG THE WAY?

Day 9 Fri., Jan. 2
Take long tail boat ride along the Mae Kok River with Sgt. Kai (I'll figure out a non-Hill Tribe village route!)

Hall of Opium <ASSUMING WE CAN DO THIS AFTER THE CRUISE ON OUR OWN>

Day 10 Sat., Jan. 3
Sightseeing on our own...
Doi Tong <CAN WE JUST HIRE A RT TAXI?>

Day 11 Sun., Jan. 4
Leave CR to DMK AM

Phew! I'm buying you all a round of drinks!!

Hello from Germany... finally I'm on line!!!

I'm dizzy reading about all the plans. I have no suggestions to offer, however, so all I can say is, some people travel much more actively than I do. I go to BKK to relax and shop and visit friends. I'm not the "plan every minute" sort of person.

As far as a GTG is concerned, I would think the 23rd would be just fine. Brad suggested Tawan Dang, but maybe something a little quieter? We shall see.

Carol

whilst in Bangkok definitely check out the skybar at the state tower. The prices are a little steep but its worth the price of one cocktails for the view over the city at night... other places in bangkok check out http://www.lost-in-bangkok.com