Sinorama Tour-Oct. 1, 2016
Feb 18th, 2016, 08:56 PM
#21
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Re: food: I don't know about the current Frommer's, but the 3rd edition had extensive information about local food options -- things not available outside the area -- with descriptions in English and the names in both Chinese and English. It proved invaluable to me.
Aug 11th, 2017, 03:10 PM
#23
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The bias here is awful to read. The first advice to read Trip Advisor is good, regardless of the disdain some of you hold for the people reviewing their their own trips. People are different when it comes to how they are comfortable traveling.
If you look at my Fodors history, you'll see that a friend and I went by car with driver for 2 weeks in SouthEastern Turkey (12 miles from Aleppo at the closest to Syria and 2 miles to Iran). stopped often by men with rifles. We drove *ourselves* for two weeks in western Turkey, also walking the small towns and I was already not young at that time.This was in 2004.
We (two women) drove around Tuscany for 3 weeks. In 2009, we did our own itinerary for Egypt and Jordan. We were lucky to see a lot that is now closed off, although the government has a policy of armed guards and we had one in the car on the 3 hour drive to a monastary in the Sinai Peninsula and back -- the guard was asleep most of the time
But now, in 2017, I, for one have less money plus more age, and I'd like not to spend my remaining $ all on one trip, while taking into consideration the downsides of a marketing-oriented tour like the ones Sinorama offers, which definitely have unappealing features (except that, as a Cantonese person, I prefer bland food to northern Chinese spicy food).
However, when some here insist that one can certainly do it more affordably on their own, I'd say that's unlikely.
Here is the deal that sent me looking. I'm in San Francisco area. Am now in my late 70's closing in on 80. But I can still walk, though I don't like to do it in hot weather, so I gave up a family trip to China in July (costing 3 times the Sinorama one).
Sinorama is offering this overactive and confining tour (one is herded about) for those on tight budgets and willing to visit silk and other factories with the idea that the visits and commissions help keep the costs way down -- and in some ways, learning what is produced and how (which could be considered educational by some) is probably more of an 'authentic' experience of how some people live their lives in China than the tribe-show at the Gorges, which is completely staged but picturesque. And, no, I wouldn't want to visit factories in the US. either. But life sometimes requires compromises.
The offered features:
=====
"13-night Sinoroma Holidays guided tour of China -- with prices dropped to $1299-$1799 per person from 42 cities ...
The package (seen at Living Social) includes:
Roundtrip flights from the U.S. and all intra-China transportation, including high-speed train and coach
9 nights in upscale hotels [not so much] and a 4-night Yangtze River cruise
Most meals, sightseeing tours, admissions fees and service charges
Full-time English-speaking guide throughout
As an option, add on three nights in Beijing (Great Wall, Tiananmen Square) before the cruise for $399.
The entire tour has one guide from start to finish with supplemental ones as needed. Almost everything is taken care of, though the experience seems fairly hectic. Some enjoy their groups quite a bit.
When: 2018 departures on March 2 and Nov. 17; +$100 March 22 and Oct. 28
Fly from the following cities:
$1299 ... Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle ..."
=====
I'm stopping there because this is about my own current needs, and San Francisco to Beijing or Shanghai is included and easy for me. The round-trip flight at $1299 for SFO, to include hotels, meals, cruise, admissions, guide, etc. is an attractive price for me.
I saw that some more independent types who took the tours just were told to sign waivers when not wanting to do some portion of the trip in favor of joining other tours or being on their own.
I won't be choosing this specific trip because it doesn't do the The Three Gorges, but I'll pay attention to any other tours they offer deals on that includes that. I'm more likely to choose Gate1 tours, which offers more freedom and far less marketing for a higher price, although it's said to be fairly competitive.
When people ask questions here, keep in mind that they may not operate under the same conditions that you do. Great advice is good, but contempt that's general for tours that include marketing in exchange for a more affordable price doesn't pay attention to the other person's situation.
If you look at my Fodors history, you'll see that a friend and I went by car with driver for 2 weeks in SouthEastern Turkey (12 miles from Aleppo at the closest to Syria and 2 miles to Iran). stopped often by men with rifles. We drove *ourselves* for two weeks in western Turkey, also walking the small towns and I was already not young at that time.This was in 2004.
We (two women) drove around Tuscany for 3 weeks. In 2009, we did our own itinerary for Egypt and Jordan. We were lucky to see a lot that is now closed off, although the government has a policy of armed guards and we had one in the car on the 3 hour drive to a monastary in the Sinai Peninsula and back -- the guard was asleep most of the time
But now, in 2017, I, for one have less money plus more age, and I'd like not to spend my remaining $ all on one trip, while taking into consideration the downsides of a marketing-oriented tour like the ones Sinorama offers, which definitely have unappealing features (except that, as a Cantonese person, I prefer bland food to northern Chinese spicy food).
However, when some here insist that one can certainly do it more affordably on their own, I'd say that's unlikely.
Here is the deal that sent me looking. I'm in San Francisco area. Am now in my late 70's closing in on 80. But I can still walk, though I don't like to do it in hot weather, so I gave up a family trip to China in July (costing 3 times the Sinorama one).
Sinorama is offering this overactive and confining tour (one is herded about) for those on tight budgets and willing to visit silk and other factories with the idea that the visits and commissions help keep the costs way down -- and in some ways, learning what is produced and how (which could be considered educational by some) is probably more of an 'authentic' experience of how some people live their lives in China than the tribe-show at the Gorges, which is completely staged but picturesque. And, no, I wouldn't want to visit factories in the US. either. But life sometimes requires compromises.
The offered features:
=====
"13-night Sinoroma Holidays guided tour of China -- with prices dropped to $1299-$1799 per person from 42 cities ...
The package (seen at Living Social) includes:
Roundtrip flights from the U.S. and all intra-China transportation, including high-speed train and coach
9 nights in upscale hotels [not so much] and a 4-night Yangtze River cruise
Most meals, sightseeing tours, admissions fees and service charges
Full-time English-speaking guide throughout
As an option, add on three nights in Beijing (Great Wall, Tiananmen Square) before the cruise for $399.
The entire tour has one guide from start to finish with supplemental ones as needed. Almost everything is taken care of, though the experience seems fairly hectic. Some enjoy their groups quite a bit.
When: 2018 departures on March 2 and Nov. 17; +$100 March 22 and Oct. 28
Fly from the following cities:
$1299 ... Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle ..."
=====
I'm stopping there because this is about my own current needs, and San Francisco to Beijing or Shanghai is included and easy for me. The round-trip flight at $1299 for SFO, to include hotels, meals, cruise, admissions, guide, etc. is an attractive price for me.
I saw that some more independent types who took the tours just were told to sign waivers when not wanting to do some portion of the trip in favor of joining other tours or being on their own.
I won't be choosing this specific trip because it doesn't do the The Three Gorges, but I'll pay attention to any other tours they offer deals on that includes that. I'm more likely to choose Gate1 tours, which offers more freedom and far less marketing for a higher price, although it's said to be fairly competitive.
When people ask questions here, keep in mind that they may not operate under the same conditions that you do. Great advice is good, but contempt that's general for tours that include marketing in exchange for a more affordable price doesn't pay attention to the other person's situation.
Aug 11th, 2017, 03:52 PM
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@ andrys: It seems to me that there’s a BIG difference between saying, “what is the cost of a tour” and “what is the cost of doing and seeing what I want to do and see” – IMO (in my opinion) that's a bit of an apples and oranges thing. Frankly, it seems to me (i.e., IMO) that I would be remiss if I didn’t comment on risks of, or alternatives to, tours for those who are considering a tour. And, as I frequently noted in my responses on this thread, that’s JMO (just my opinion) and YMMV (your mileage may vary, as in, you could have a different experience). If you want to take a tour, that’s your business and your right. I believe that those of you who prefer a tour can learn a lot about what to consider from threads like this one – but again, that’s JMO and YMMV. Best wishes.
Aug 11th, 2017, 05:33 PM
#25
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As far as I can see, the price of Sinorama is hard to beat. They appear to be negotiating special deal with airlines because the airfare portion is amazingly cheap.
I still would never do such a tour myself but I can see the attraction for some people who want a quick overview for a very cheap price.
I still would never do such a tour myself but I can see the attraction for some people who want a quick overview for a very cheap price.
Aug 11th, 2017, 06:03 PM
#26
Seems you are well aware of the downsides of what you are planning. If you are willing to accept those in exchange for an exceedingly low price, that is certainly your choice. Earlier posts on this thread were to point out some of the (many) downsides of a typical tour to China as it wasn't clear the OP was aware of them.
Personally, I prefer not to be herded around in a large group, fed dumbed down tourist meals and subjected to multiple shopping ops and required tipping in a non-tipping country. If you are OK with that, I trust you will enjoy yourself.
I have done two tours to China, in addition to independent travel. The first was with the Smithsonian, which convinced me it was possible, and preferable, to travel there solo. I did pick a tour group for my second visit, since it was Beijing to Islamabad, but that was with Intrepid, a budget
Aussie company, which encouraged independence once we arrived in a town, and involved zero shopping ops or tips.
Personally, I prefer not to be herded around in a large group, fed dumbed down tourist meals and subjected to multiple shopping ops and required tipping in a non-tipping country. If you are OK with that, I trust you will enjoy yourself.
I have done two tours to China, in addition to independent travel. The first was with the Smithsonian, which convinced me it was possible, and preferable, to travel there solo. I did pick a tour group for my second visit, since it was Beijing to Islamabad, but that was with Intrepid, a budget
Aussie company, which encouraged independence once we arrived in a town, and involved zero shopping ops or tips.
Aug 11th, 2017, 06:54 PM
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kja
Re your "I believe that those of you who prefer a tour can learn a lot about what to consider from threads like this one"
That shows that you did NOT take the time to read my entire note or you would not have again condescendly said that.
Re your "I believe that those of you who prefer a tour can learn a lot about what to consider from threads like this one"
That shows that you did NOT take the time to read my entire note or you would not have again condescendly said that.
Aug 11th, 2017, 07:15 PM
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1. "condescendly" in my reply to kja should have been "condescendingly" ;-)
2. CanadaChinaTraveller and thursdaysd -- thanks for understanding. The Intrepid agency sounds similar to "Gate1"tours and I prefer that also, if I can afford it.
I don't know what the airfare portion alone would be for themfrom San Francisco and back, but it is $1,300 total to us, to include the RT airline trip + intra-country transport + hotels + meals and whatever admissions for the tours.
However, I had read that they also add a pre-tipping cost -- and the cost of getting the China visa is mostly the traveler's responsibility. But, for sure, it's hard to beat that total price, if one does not have a big % surplus.
Sinorama seems to have taken note of complaints and is no longer making all evening activities prepaid but mandatory and will bus you back to the hotel to rest or whatever if you want. Very often the hotels are not close to the town proper so people would then likely check out the rural offerings or get a car or taxi with others. And while the Sinorama tour guide may discourage people from leaving the group to do something else, the company just has you sign waivers for those occasions.
One of the recent Trip Advisor reviewers of a Sinorama trip in late 2016 took some photos of the Yangtze River 3 Gorges portion of the Gold 8 ship and what that looks like. It's definitely on my bucket list for another day. I asked him to put the photos somewhere as Trip Advisor makes the indivdiuals' photos too difficult to find. So he put those at
https://www.flickr.com/photos/153681...h/36499642275/
In his case, that was a family and friends group of over 20 people who took the more extravagant room offerings of that cruise.
2. CanadaChinaTraveller and thursdaysd -- thanks for understanding. The Intrepid agency sounds similar to "Gate1"tours and I prefer that also, if I can afford it.
I don't know what the airfare portion alone would be for themfrom San Francisco and back, but it is $1,300 total to us, to include the RT airline trip + intra-country transport + hotels + meals and whatever admissions for the tours.
However, I had read that they also add a pre-tipping cost -- and the cost of getting the China visa is mostly the traveler's responsibility. But, for sure, it's hard to beat that total price, if one does not have a big % surplus.
Sinorama seems to have taken note of complaints and is no longer making all evening activities prepaid but mandatory and will bus you back to the hotel to rest or whatever if you want. Very often the hotels are not close to the town proper so people would then likely check out the rural offerings or get a car or taxi with others. And while the Sinorama tour guide may discourage people from leaving the group to do something else, the company just has you sign waivers for those occasions.
One of the recent Trip Advisor reviewers of a Sinorama trip in late 2016 took some photos of the Yangtze River 3 Gorges portion of the Gold 8 ship and what that looks like. It's definitely on my bucket list for another day. I asked him to put the photos somewhere as Trip Advisor makes the indivdiuals' photos too difficult to find. So he put those at
https://www.flickr.com/photos/153681...h/36499642275/
In his case, that was a family and friends group of over 20 people who took the more extravagant room offerings of that cruise.
Aug 11th, 2017, 07:31 PM
#30
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kja, sorrythat I had read it that way. You were probably generalizing to the group when you said that.
People -should- be made aware, but then someone actually posted that "I found quite a number of happy travelers on TripAdvisor who'd had good experiences with Sinorama." and the reply to the person was:
"Thus pointing out the utter uselessness of Trip Advisor."
I completely disagree. There are different crowds with different needs -- but if budgeting is very important, then one wants to know if others who have also been willing to compromise in order to even SEE some of these places enjoyed the trip nevertheless and of course what they liked about it.
The poster asked for do's and don'ts of a Sinorama tour and was accused of "confirmation bias" and seeking add'l confirmation.
Sinorama does have language on their website about visiting places and the usual shopping thing. Since I personally hate to shop, it's not something I'd look forward to, but I admit that I AM curious about what the production facilities are like for making things of interest to buyers. I enjoyed some of that in Turkey although we discouraged any driver/guide to lead us to places where there was only shopping.
It's true that while the guides get the commissions whether someone buys or not, one does spend about 2 hours in those places.
I'd bring a book
Even in 2009, Egypt was difficult because touristry is the main source of income these days (though not possible with the current political situation) and you can see the anxiety in the eyes of sellers when family income is so reliant on that.
People -should- be made aware, but then someone actually posted that "I found quite a number of happy travelers on TripAdvisor who'd had good experiences with Sinorama." and the reply to the person was:
"Thus pointing out the utter uselessness of Trip Advisor."
I completely disagree. There are different crowds with different needs -- but if budgeting is very important, then one wants to know if others who have also been willing to compromise in order to even SEE some of these places enjoyed the trip nevertheless and of course what they liked about it.
The poster asked for do's and don'ts of a Sinorama tour and was accused of "confirmation bias" and seeking add'l confirmation.
Sinorama does have language on their website about visiting places and the usual shopping thing. Since I personally hate to shop, it's not something I'd look forward to, but I admit that I AM curious about what the production facilities are like for making things of interest to buyers. I enjoyed some of that in Turkey although we discouraged any driver/guide to lead us to places where there was only shopping.
It's true that while the guides get the commissions whether someone buys or not, one does spend about 2 hours in those places.
I'd bring a book
Even in 2009, Egypt was difficult because touristry is the main source of income these days (though not possible with the current political situation) and you can see the anxiety in the eyes of sellers when family income is so reliant on that.
Aug 11th, 2017, 07:50 PM
#32
"The Intrepid agency sounds similar to "Gate1"tours and I prefer that also, if I can afford it."
Intrepid is nothing like Gate1! (And yes I did once travel with Gate1, to Egypt in 2000).
http://www.intrepidtravel.com/us
"Very often the hotels are not close to the town proper"
One reason the tour is so cheap. And one very common downside of budget bus tours.
Please come back and tell us how it went.
Intrepid is nothing like Gate1! (And yes I did once travel with Gate1, to Egypt in 2000).
http://www.intrepidtravel.com/us
"Very often the hotels are not close to the town proper"
One reason the tour is so cheap. And one very common downside of budget bus tours.
Please come back and tell us how it went.
Aug 11th, 2017, 08:02 PM
#33
BTW, are those flights non-stop? I just checked kayak.com for a random date late Sep returning early Oct, SFO to Beijing, Shanghai to SFO - $389 on China Southern, but one stop each way.
With airline prices that low you should be able to do the trip independently. Lonely Planet says that a mid-range budget starts at $30 US a day, although the cruise would be higher.
With airline prices that low you should be able to do the trip independently. Lonely Planet says that a mid-range budget starts at $30 US a day, although the cruise would be higher.
Aug 11th, 2017, 08:25 PM
#34
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andrys - Given the fact that you are almost 80, and that you have already looked into the pros and cons of a tour, I say go for it. I personally would never take even a day tour again, but I understand some people don't mind the regimentation. As a favor to yourself, read up on the propaganda machine in China, so that you will have a cynical view of what the guides will say to you. I recommend:
"Out of Mao's Shadow" by Phillip Pan.
Also, would it possible to do the Beijing add-on by yourself, as thursdays had mentioned? We stayed at the Grand Hyatt, and we walked most places from there. The concierge also arranged taxis for us, and private drivers. This way, you can at least get a taste at independent travel in China.
Looking forward to hearing about your trip. Safe journey.
"Out of Mao's Shadow" by Phillip Pan.
Also, would it possible to do the Beijing add-on by yourself, as thursdays had mentioned? We stayed at the Grand Hyatt, and we walked most places from there. The concierge also arranged taxis for us, and private drivers. This way, you can at least get a taste at independent travel in China.
Looking forward to hearing about your trip. Safe journey.
Aug 12th, 2017, 08:04 AM
#35
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> The bias here is awful to read.
"People I disagree with are biased. I am not."
> The first advice to read Trip Advisor is good, regardless of the disdain some of you hold for the people reviewing their their own trips. People are different when it comes to how they are comfortable traveling.
Which is merely one of several reasons why TripAdvisor is structurally (and blindingly obviously) a waste of time. But that's a longer discussion.
With China it is merely the case that many who come back having had a great time have no idea whatsoever just what they didn't see (or taste), how much of what they heard was false, or of just how much they've been fleeced on the ground left, right, and centre (in addition to the fleecing openly advertised on Sinorama's site). That's just a fact, and the "disdain" for those who comment on their own trips does not exist. Your "disdain" for those who views you don't like obviously does.
> However, when some here insist that one can certainly do it more affordably on their own, I'd say that's unlikely.
So you come here to look for advice from those with experience of China travel, which you claim is worth having, but ignore any you don't like the sound of? And yet you have trouble with the suggestion you should try to avoid confirmation bias?
Just saying it's 'unlikely' that independent travel in China is cheaper than organised tourism won't make the realities of the situation go away. It's simply the truth.
You've been given accounts of the problems with organised tours in China in some detail both by experienced travellers and someone who's spent years studying the matter. You've been provided with a set of questions to ask so that if you do decide to take a tour you might be spared the worst iniquities of the Chinese travel industry and choose a better one. The ways in which apparently cheap tours actually have their hands in your pockets left right and centre have been set out for your own benefit.
Yet all you do is complain about any information you don't like and just decide not to believe in it. One can only hope, since this is a public forum and not a private conversation, that others may benefit.
"People I disagree with are biased. I am not."
> The first advice to read Trip Advisor is good, regardless of the disdain some of you hold for the people reviewing their their own trips. People are different when it comes to how they are comfortable traveling.
Which is merely one of several reasons why TripAdvisor is structurally (and blindingly obviously) a waste of time. But that's a longer discussion.
With China it is merely the case that many who come back having had a great time have no idea whatsoever just what they didn't see (or taste), how much of what they heard was false, or of just how much they've been fleeced on the ground left, right, and centre (in addition to the fleecing openly advertised on Sinorama's site). That's just a fact, and the "disdain" for those who comment on their own trips does not exist. Your "disdain" for those who views you don't like obviously does.
> However, when some here insist that one can certainly do it more affordably on their own, I'd say that's unlikely.
So you come here to look for advice from those with experience of China travel, which you claim is worth having, but ignore any you don't like the sound of? And yet you have trouble with the suggestion you should try to avoid confirmation bias?
Just saying it's 'unlikely' that independent travel in China is cheaper than organised tourism won't make the realities of the situation go away. It's simply the truth.
You've been given accounts of the problems with organised tours in China in some detail both by experienced travellers and someone who's spent years studying the matter. You've been provided with a set of questions to ask so that if you do decide to take a tour you might be spared the worst iniquities of the Chinese travel industry and choose a better one. The ways in which apparently cheap tours actually have their hands in your pockets left right and centre have been set out for your own benefit.
Yet all you do is complain about any information you don't like and just decide not to believe in it. One can only hope, since this is a public forum and not a private conversation, that others may benefit.
Aug 12th, 2017, 08:50 AM
#36
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The threads about Sinorama on TripAdvisor have an excess of 2,000 posts. There are positive comments as well as negative ones. Ultimately it all depends on your expectations.
With so many people reporting their experience, it has to be the best source of information to assess if it is the right thing for you. Far from being useless, that is the best source about what to expect. As far as I know, nobody who responded here have ever been on this tour. Unfortunately, on this forum many regulars think that their travel style is the only way to travel and everybody else is wrong.
It is more useful to simply answer questions by sharing information instead of lecturing posters. People do not come here to be judged, they just want information. I wish there were more facts in responses and less opinions.
With so many people reporting their experience, it has to be the best source of information to assess if it is the right thing for you. Far from being useless, that is the best source about what to expect. As far as I know, nobody who responded here have ever been on this tour. Unfortunately, on this forum many regulars think that their travel style is the only way to travel and everybody else is wrong.
It is more useful to simply answer questions by sharing information instead of lecturing posters. People do not come here to be judged, they just want information. I wish there were more facts in responses and less opinions.
Aug 12th, 2017, 09:35 AM
#37
@andrys - do you have a link to the tour you are taking/considering (not sure which)?
The only candidate I see on the Sinorama website is the Back to Ancient Capitals and Yangtze Cruise tour.
If it's that one there seems to be very little sightseeing. Also, the cruise is NOT through the Three Gorges, it is downstream from Wuhan to Shanghai, which I would expect to be flat and boring. I would also suspect that the "old" streets you will see will have been (re)built recently.
The only candidate I see on the Sinorama website is the Back to Ancient Capitals and Yangtze Cruise tour.
If it's that one there seems to be very little sightseeing. Also, the cruise is NOT through the Three Gorges, it is downstream from Wuhan to Shanghai, which I would expect to be flat and boring. I would also suspect that the "old" streets you will see will have been (re)built recently.
Aug 12th, 2017, 01:28 PM
#38
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I must admit that I am puzzled. Even with the comments I made on this thread for which I have already (sincerely) apologized, I don’t see anyone who said that his/her way of travel is the ONLY way to travel. No one said NOT to take a tour; people identified issues to consider when making a decision and offered possible alternatives. In fact, my experience of the other regular posters on this forum is that most of us have a great appreciation for the fact that people travel with different preferences and goals and constraints, and say: vive la difference! That certainly is my view.
And speaking only for myself, I readily admit that I’m human – I make mistakes, including in my phrasing. I am willing to listen to honest criticism and to try to learn from it. But I don’t like being judged for positions or attitudes I don’t actually hold, even if its done indirectly as a generalization about the regulars on this forum.
As for TripAdvisor, personally, I find it a helpful resource for hotels throughout much of the world – but then, most people have been in hotels and so have a basis for comparison and evaluation. Reviewers of a tour may be able to speak to the hotels in which they stayed, but unless they have taken other tours to those same locations, I’m not sure they have the experience they would need to offer informative evaluations. (And BTW, I’m not criticizing them for offering their perspectives – I take the view that someone who takes the time and effort to write a review is most likely doing so with the intention of being helpful.) The question, IMO, is what weight to give those reviews.
And speaking only for myself, I readily admit that I’m human – I make mistakes, including in my phrasing. I am willing to listen to honest criticism and to try to learn from it. But I don’t like being judged for positions or attitudes I don’t actually hold, even if its done indirectly as a generalization about the regulars on this forum.
As for TripAdvisor, personally, I find it a helpful resource for hotels throughout much of the world – but then, most people have been in hotels and so have a basis for comparison and evaluation. Reviewers of a tour may be able to speak to the hotels in which they stayed, but unless they have taken other tours to those same locations, I’m not sure they have the experience they would need to offer informative evaluations. (And BTW, I’m not criticizing them for offering their perspectives – I take the view that someone who takes the time and effort to write a review is most likely doing so with the intention of being helpful.) The question, IMO, is what weight to give those reviews.
