Questions about bargaining
Oct 7th, 2008, 06:31 PM
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Questions about bargaining
Dear Fodorites,
I'm off to China in two weeks!
I have questions about bargaining:
1. Is there a rule of thumb about what percent of the asking price I should start with? For example, if the seller asks for 100 RMB, what should my first offer be? 10 RMB? 20? 50?
2. Are there places or services where they don't bargain? For example, would I bargain at Starbucks? A bakery? A sit-down restaurant? A department store? Museum admission fees?
Thanks!
H_X
I'm off to China in two weeks!
I have questions about bargaining:
1. Is there a rule of thumb about what percent of the asking price I should start with? For example, if the seller asks for 100 RMB, what should my first offer be? 10 RMB? 20? 50?
2. Are there places or services where they don't bargain? For example, would I bargain at Starbucks? A bakery? A sit-down restaurant? A department store? Museum admission fees?
Thanks!
H_X
Oct 7th, 2008, 06:47 PM
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Is everyone going to China this month? I am also going in 2 weeks.
I heard start at 10% of what the price is, but sounds kind of low to me. But what do you have to lose?
If bargaining is like ot is in other countries, it would not be Starbucks, entrance fees or sit down restaurants.
I heard start at 10% of what the price is, but sounds kind of low to me. But what do you have to lose?
If bargaining is like ot is in other countries, it would not be Starbucks, entrance fees or sit down restaurants.
Oct 7th, 2008, 07:35 PM
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Hi - I'm speaking from a Shanghai perspective. Go as low as you want to in the market - let them offer you a price, go back with something ludicrous. Then bargain up and down till you reach a mutually agreeable price. It does sometimes work not to back down at all and just walk away, particularly towards the end of the day the stallholder will just be happy for the sale. With this method I got a bargain double lined coat, that started at 800RMB (A$133) down to 180RMB (A$25). I was very happy with this purchase. If they do let you walk away chances are they had reached their bottom line. Don't sweat it, try the next place.
The general rule is that you don't bargain in Department Stores, or regular chain stores etc. The shop will already be offering discounts and sometimes the assistant will offer you a further discount of 10 - 30% if you hesitate. I wouldn't bargain for food or coffee and such - it is extremely cheap as it is and is just not worth it. I have never heard of it done.
Alot of the market stall keepers speak relatively good English (at least as far as bargaining is concerned), but many people (at least in Shanghai) do not (which is fair enough), so a calculator, and a language guide are a must (sometimes pointing to the word in English and pointing to its Chinese equivalent is enough to get your point across).
Remember to keep your bargaining lighthearted and don't get cheesed off if the price doesn't come down to your bottom line - just try the next place. Please don't be rude to people.
Beware of the touts in the markets and the main shopping strips. They will take you to stall holders who offer them commissions - or they will latch on to you and take you to a store and then expect you to give them a commission.
Have a great time.
The general rule is that you don't bargain in Department Stores, or regular chain stores etc. The shop will already be offering discounts and sometimes the assistant will offer you a further discount of 10 - 30% if you hesitate. I wouldn't bargain for food or coffee and such - it is extremely cheap as it is and is just not worth it. I have never heard of it done.
Alot of the market stall keepers speak relatively good English (at least as far as bargaining is concerned), but many people (at least in Shanghai) do not (which is fair enough), so a calculator, and a language guide are a must (sometimes pointing to the word in English and pointing to its Chinese equivalent is enough to get your point across).
Remember to keep your bargaining lighthearted and don't get cheesed off if the price doesn't come down to your bottom line - just try the next place. Please don't be rude to people.
Beware of the touts in the markets and the main shopping strips. They will take you to stall holders who offer them commissions - or they will latch on to you and take you to a store and then expect you to give them a commission.
Have a great time.
Oct 7th, 2008, 07:45 PM
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I wrote at length on topic here back in 2004. Here's an edited version of the same remarks:
It's the knowledge that dumb foreigners think that paying half price is a pretty good deal which years ago drove first asking prices for foreigners to five, ten, or even fifteen times what will actually be accepted. There's nothing to lose, and vendors find time after time, as this general 'wisdom' that half price is a good deal circulates around foreign tourists, that they can easily end up with 2.5, 5, or 7.5 times what they would usually expect to get. Only in places which see few foreign faces, and if you can speak Mandarin yourself, is the vendor likely to give you a first price double or less what he'll accept. In tourist ghettos such as Beijing's Silk Market, a fake Timberland shirt will typically have a first asking price of Y180, but can be obtained for Y45 (and if you go to other clothing markets you can even find them labelled for that price, so you can go a little lower still).
At Panjiayuan the Chinese are buying Yixing teapots for Y8 to Y10, but the first asking price to may be Y50. On other items a multiple of 15 (and going up) is common. On very expensive items (carpets, etc.) the multiple will not be so great, but the sum lost by the overhasty purchaser all the greater in size.
Never make the first offer. The first price spoken is a kind of marker which affects the outcome. It's a positioning statement, and a way of finding out just how dumb the other party is. The higher the first price, the better the chance that the final price will also be higher, too. Bartering is about knowledge and ignorance, and out-of-towners are always more ignorant of local prices (this applies equally to a Shanghainese visiting Beijing). In clannish China being an out-of-towner makes you an acceptable target for unfair practices of all kinds. Being visibly foreign makes you an ideal mark--someone with both a bulging wallet and radical ignorance, unless you turn out to be someone from the cannier end of expatdom (expats rarely have any idea of real prices either--they live in a different world). Even long-term residents find they are asked twice the price for tomatoes at their nearest street stall. Asking a high price is also a way of finding out just how ignorant you are, and so how to manage negotiation to the final result.
So get the vendor to say a price first. He has nothing whatsoever to lose by putting this sky high and seeing what happens. He'll often strike lucky with the laissez faire attitude shown by some visitors (and that's up to you) and make his profit for the day in a single transaction. If you look pained, surprised, knowing, or amused, and withdraw, he can immediately cut it in half to keep your attention, and if you are new to this you'll immediately think you're on the way to a good deal. You'll often see this happen, and some people are inclined to become angry: "Hey! He's trying to rip us off!" Well, yes and no. He's just trying to get the best financial result for himself, and you didn't have to put yourself in the position of negotiating with him, did you? This is how bargaining works.
In any society the price of something is what someone is willing to pay. In this case foreign tourists, in their ignorance, have frequently demonstrated a willingness to pay half of whatever they've been asked, and so prices rise accordingly.
Your first offer should be made reluctantly, and at not more than 10% of his price if you're in a tourist-as-victim market such as Pan Jia Yuan, the Silk Market, Hong Qiao (the 'Pearl Market'), or indeed lower. This is a situation which continues to change--if everyone comes to accept that paying 10% is about right (supposing things were that simple) then first asking prices will head yet higher still, and first offers should go down. Like the vendor, you can quickly head upwards if you really want the item. You also have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The lower your first offer, the better the chance that the final price will be something near reasonable. Your positioning statement is: "Hey! I may be shopping in a market for tourists, but I wasn't born yesterday." With a regretful smile, of course.
The vendor's price will then usually drop by a large margin. If his first was Y100 and yours Y10, he may come to Y80 or Y50. Your next offer should be Y11 or so. The fact that he is continuing the conversation at all shows that you shouldn't be heading higher in any hurry. And you should continue to go up in small increments as he comes down in larger ones. Walking away is always the way to discover if you've reached bottom or not. The result of all this is that you'll pay a little more than an out-of-town Chinese, but great deal less than the average foreign visitor--half, a third, a quarter... And with the right attitude you'll have lots of fun doing it.
Wherever there's a vendor of any one type of item, there are always many of them. The numbers almost always swell well beyond the capacity of the market to absorb their merchandise. In short, almost all markets, even those riddled with tourists, are buyers' markets. The odd sale to a 50%-er is enough to keep a stall going for a while, and regular, reasonable profit from others is always welcome. There's no need to be madly fixated on paying not a penny more than a Chinese would, but there's no point in giving money away (and there are charity cases in far greater need if you want to do that).
To get the best prices:
Never shop where your tour guide takes you, or at shops which take foreign credit cards
Avoid well-known tourist markets if you can, such as Beijing's Silk Market (which has almost no silk), Pan Jia Yuan, or Hong Qiao (the 'Pearl Market'). Yes, there are lots of Chinese shopping there, too, but they know what they are doing, and you don't; and the vendors know they know, and know that you don't understand what prices are being discussed. There are always places where local people shop (see silk shop list mentioned earlier, for example). As in any other country, shopping away from the centre of town is a good idea. Ask the staff of your hotel where they actually shop (although this only works for everyday items such as clothes, shoes, suitcases, etc.)
Shop out of season. This is an option open mostly only to independent travellers, but those on organised tours with only a little free time should at least understand that a rainy day is better for shopping in markets--prices quickly tumble when customers are few. There's also a greater willingness to give you a reasonable price when there aren't lots of other people to overhear this happening. On a sunny day, in a tourist market with lots of tourists in a hurry, prices may simply stay several multiples of what they should be because there are enough people paying those prices to make it not worth spending time with those who want to bargain harder
Never buy near the entrance to a market, or at the first stall of any particular kind that you come across. Always go deeper in, and never (or rarely) buy from the first stall where you start discussing prices. Use your willingness to walk away to educate yourself by getting the lowest price you can from a vendor, encouraging you to make yet lower bids to the next one you speak to.
Unless you are an expert, or have spent a great deal of time getting to know quality and price internationally, never buy expensive items in China of any kind. There are endless fakes of absolutely everything, and you cannot get a good price on anything with an international market value, unless that thing is actually a fake. Strike carpets, jewellery, gems, and all antiques off your shopping list. Be wary of flash drives, tea, and anything else whose quality you yourself are not qualified to appraise at the point of sale.
I hope that answers question one above.
As for question two, you bargain, or ask for a discount (which will almost always be forthcoming, and not the slightest offence is taken whether it is forthcoming or not) absolutely everywhere except restaurants (although residents do do it in some local restaurants, too, and indeed you may find a discount on your bill at these appearing all by itself); grocery stores, cafes, and museum admission fees (although in some other places on these, too). You don't bargain with simple one-way journeys in taxis (or not in Beijing, but you would in some other corners of China), but you do for one-day or long-distance hires. You don't bargain for bus, rail, or metro fares (but you do for air fares--you ask for a better discount and see where it gets you).
But everywhere else, regardless of marked prices, you do bargain.
Peter N-H
It's the knowledge that dumb foreigners think that paying half price is a pretty good deal which years ago drove first asking prices for foreigners to five, ten, or even fifteen times what will actually be accepted. There's nothing to lose, and vendors find time after time, as this general 'wisdom' that half price is a good deal circulates around foreign tourists, that they can easily end up with 2.5, 5, or 7.5 times what they would usually expect to get. Only in places which see few foreign faces, and if you can speak Mandarin yourself, is the vendor likely to give you a first price double or less what he'll accept. In tourist ghettos such as Beijing's Silk Market, a fake Timberland shirt will typically have a first asking price of Y180, but can be obtained for Y45 (and if you go to other clothing markets you can even find them labelled for that price, so you can go a little lower still).
At Panjiayuan the Chinese are buying Yixing teapots for Y8 to Y10, but the first asking price to may be Y50. On other items a multiple of 15 (and going up) is common. On very expensive items (carpets, etc.) the multiple will not be so great, but the sum lost by the overhasty purchaser all the greater in size.
Never make the first offer. The first price spoken is a kind of marker which affects the outcome. It's a positioning statement, and a way of finding out just how dumb the other party is. The higher the first price, the better the chance that the final price will also be higher, too. Bartering is about knowledge and ignorance, and out-of-towners are always more ignorant of local prices (this applies equally to a Shanghainese visiting Beijing). In clannish China being an out-of-towner makes you an acceptable target for unfair practices of all kinds. Being visibly foreign makes you an ideal mark--someone with both a bulging wallet and radical ignorance, unless you turn out to be someone from the cannier end of expatdom (expats rarely have any idea of real prices either--they live in a different world). Even long-term residents find they are asked twice the price for tomatoes at their nearest street stall. Asking a high price is also a way of finding out just how ignorant you are, and so how to manage negotiation to the final result.
So get the vendor to say a price first. He has nothing whatsoever to lose by putting this sky high and seeing what happens. He'll often strike lucky with the laissez faire attitude shown by some visitors (and that's up to you) and make his profit for the day in a single transaction. If you look pained, surprised, knowing, or amused, and withdraw, he can immediately cut it in half to keep your attention, and if you are new to this you'll immediately think you're on the way to a good deal. You'll often see this happen, and some people are inclined to become angry: "Hey! He's trying to rip us off!" Well, yes and no. He's just trying to get the best financial result for himself, and you didn't have to put yourself in the position of negotiating with him, did you? This is how bargaining works.
In any society the price of something is what someone is willing to pay. In this case foreign tourists, in their ignorance, have frequently demonstrated a willingness to pay half of whatever they've been asked, and so prices rise accordingly.
Your first offer should be made reluctantly, and at not more than 10% of his price if you're in a tourist-as-victim market such as Pan Jia Yuan, the Silk Market, Hong Qiao (the 'Pearl Market'), or indeed lower. This is a situation which continues to change--if everyone comes to accept that paying 10% is about right (supposing things were that simple) then first asking prices will head yet higher still, and first offers should go down. Like the vendor, you can quickly head upwards if you really want the item. You also have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The lower your first offer, the better the chance that the final price will be something near reasonable. Your positioning statement is: "Hey! I may be shopping in a market for tourists, but I wasn't born yesterday." With a regretful smile, of course.
The vendor's price will then usually drop by a large margin. If his first was Y100 and yours Y10, he may come to Y80 or Y50. Your next offer should be Y11 or so. The fact that he is continuing the conversation at all shows that you shouldn't be heading higher in any hurry. And you should continue to go up in small increments as he comes down in larger ones. Walking away is always the way to discover if you've reached bottom or not. The result of all this is that you'll pay a little more than an out-of-town Chinese, but great deal less than the average foreign visitor--half, a third, a quarter... And with the right attitude you'll have lots of fun doing it.
Wherever there's a vendor of any one type of item, there are always many of them. The numbers almost always swell well beyond the capacity of the market to absorb their merchandise. In short, almost all markets, even those riddled with tourists, are buyers' markets. The odd sale to a 50%-er is enough to keep a stall going for a while, and regular, reasonable profit from others is always welcome. There's no need to be madly fixated on paying not a penny more than a Chinese would, but there's no point in giving money away (and there are charity cases in far greater need if you want to do that).
To get the best prices:
Never shop where your tour guide takes you, or at shops which take foreign credit cards
Avoid well-known tourist markets if you can, such as Beijing's Silk Market (which has almost no silk), Pan Jia Yuan, or Hong Qiao (the 'Pearl Market'). Yes, there are lots of Chinese shopping there, too, but they know what they are doing, and you don't; and the vendors know they know, and know that you don't understand what prices are being discussed. There are always places where local people shop (see silk shop list mentioned earlier, for example). As in any other country, shopping away from the centre of town is a good idea. Ask the staff of your hotel where they actually shop (although this only works for everyday items such as clothes, shoes, suitcases, etc.)
Shop out of season. This is an option open mostly only to independent travellers, but those on organised tours with only a little free time should at least understand that a rainy day is better for shopping in markets--prices quickly tumble when customers are few. There's also a greater willingness to give you a reasonable price when there aren't lots of other people to overhear this happening. On a sunny day, in a tourist market with lots of tourists in a hurry, prices may simply stay several multiples of what they should be because there are enough people paying those prices to make it not worth spending time with those who want to bargain harder
Never buy near the entrance to a market, or at the first stall of any particular kind that you come across. Always go deeper in, and never (or rarely) buy from the first stall where you start discussing prices. Use your willingness to walk away to educate yourself by getting the lowest price you can from a vendor, encouraging you to make yet lower bids to the next one you speak to.
Unless you are an expert, or have spent a great deal of time getting to know quality and price internationally, never buy expensive items in China of any kind. There are endless fakes of absolutely everything, and you cannot get a good price on anything with an international market value, unless that thing is actually a fake. Strike carpets, jewellery, gems, and all antiques off your shopping list. Be wary of flash drives, tea, and anything else whose quality you yourself are not qualified to appraise at the point of sale.
I hope that answers question one above.
As for question two, you bargain, or ask for a discount (which will almost always be forthcoming, and not the slightest offence is taken whether it is forthcoming or not) absolutely everywhere except restaurants (although residents do do it in some local restaurants, too, and indeed you may find a discount on your bill at these appearing all by itself); grocery stores, cafes, and museum admission fees (although in some other places on these, too). You don't bargain with simple one-way journeys in taxis (or not in Beijing, but you would in some other corners of China), but you do for one-day or long-distance hires. You don't bargain for bus, rail, or metro fares (but you do for air fares--you ask for a better discount and see where it gets you).
But everywhere else, regardless of marked prices, you do bargain.
Peter N-H
Oct 8th, 2008, 05:44 AM
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PeterN_H, just want to say thx a mint for your detailed description!
I read it with interest and just wanted to post as I am sure many other lurkers will benefit from it too. I'm heading to HK and I am sure some of this is transferable to that region as well.
Enjoy-la!
I read it with interest and just wanted to post as I am sure many other lurkers will benefit from it too. I'm heading to HK and I am sure some of this is transferable to that region as well.
Enjoy-la!
Oct 8th, 2008, 06:21 AM
#6
Peter - yes, that was fabulous advice. It would have been helpful to me in Thailand a few years ago, even Peru last year. Will definitely use it when I (finally) get to China in the next year or two. Thanks so much.
Oct 8th, 2008, 05:20 PM
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That's a fairly skeletal account, I'm afraid. You might also like to consider just how much it's true that your opponents when bargaining are not only the sellers, but other foreign buyers, whose behaviour can border on cretinous. This from a recent edition of the SCMP:
'"You are not fat at all. You are skinny," one trader said in fluent English to a woman trying to squeeze into a pair of jeans. The trader accepted 200 yuan (HK$227), or two-thirds of her asking price, for the jeans. The buyer handed over US$200 and left with a contented smile, not realising she was haggling in yuan.'
Unbelievable.
Peter N-H
'"You are not fat at all. You are skinny," one trader said in fluent English to a woman trying to squeeze into a pair of jeans. The trader accepted 200 yuan (HK$227), or two-thirds of her asking price, for the jeans. The buyer handed over US$200 and left with a contented smile, not realising she was haggling in yuan.'
Unbelievable.
Peter N-H
