Hi all! I've been reading up on this forum for a while, getting ready for my first trip to India. I'm a woman who will be traveling alone or with one other woman, from Oct 16- Nov. 1. I'm building this trip around participating in the Great Himalayan Bird Count Oct 27-30 (an endeavor that monitors bird pop.s and works with local villagers to glean local knowledge re: birds and involves youth in learning birds to become guides). I need to be in Dehradun on Oct. 27 for that.
I'm really interested in forts and temples and such, and in avoiding excessive hassles that tend to be associated with the main tourist centers, so I'm thinking of avoiding Jaipur and Udaipur. I'm looking to stay mid-range on prices. Here's what I'm thinking so far:
Oct 17: arrive in Delhi (possibly book a homestay - leave all gear needed for the bird count hike there)
Oct 18: Travel to Agra early, hit the Taj and Fort
Oct 19: Taj at dawn, back to Delhi to fly to Jodhpur (13:05-13:55 flight)
Oct 20: Jodhpur
Oct 21: Hire a driver, leaving early to go to Ranakpur + Kumbulgarh, ending in Chittorgarh
Oct 22: Chittorgarh, leaving for Bundi in the afternoon (notes are sketchy... I think I was thinking bus or driver for this leg...)
Oct 23: Bundi, leaving late to take overnight train from Kota to Delhi.
Oct 24: Delhi (picking up the hiking gear), take overnight train to Haridwar
Oct 25: Haridwar
Oct 26: Haridwar to Dehradun by evening
Oct 27-30: Bird count (sounds like we'll be assigned trails in the Garhwal Mtns)
Oct 31: 16:20 flight from Dehradun to Delhi. Flight out leaves shortly after midnight on November 1.

I know this is a lot. I'm thinking I'm rushing too fast through Chittorgarh & Bundi in particular & perhaps should just skip Chittorgarh (although it seems like that would make for a really long day on Oct 21...).
Any advice on this itinerary and recommendations on places to stay or a good driver from Jodhpur would be greatly appreciated!

I agree you're doing too much. I did too much as well, so I know what that means.

What time will you leave Agra and arrive in Delhi in order to get a 13:05 flight?

Jodhpur through Ranakpur + Kumbhelgarh to Chittorgarh is a long, long day of driving. Poor driver!!

I would recommend Ramesh Meena very highly: ramindiatours.com.

The Delhi B & B is quite reasonable and it's fun to be in an Indian family home. Check out my trip report at: fodors.com/community/asia/east-meets-west-indiana-to-india.cfm for info.

Right - I suppose I'd need to leave Agra before 9... I think I need a helicopter....
On the Ranakpur/Kumbhelgarh day, maybe it would make sense to stay somewhere in that area then head to Bundi the next day?
Thanks for the driver recommendation and trip report link!

It's possible to stay at Kumbhelgarh, although we didn't do that (drove on to Udaipur). There is an interesting temple complex at the base of the fort that I would have liked to explore.

Jodhpur has, in my opinion, the best fort we saw in Rajasthan. And it has an elevator so that you don't have to hike up to the top. And it has an audioguide so you don't need to hire a guide.

The Taj Mahal doesn't open until sunrise, which time varies depending on the time of the year. You can buy your ticket and get in line before that (while it's still dark).

If my count is correct, you are going to visit 8 places in 10 days. That would be too much for me. That is more than I would cover in 2 weeks. With just over a week, personally I would probably only do 2 places, with a third if it isn’t too far from the other two. Your distances are quite far, esp Kota from Dehradun.

As an initial comment, as you are going to be in Dehradun anyway, and as you want to see temples, you should consider going to Rikisesh. You could substitute 2 days or more in Haridwar for this. It is about an hour from Deradun (as you know, you can fly to Deradun from Delhi. You can also take a train to Haridwar and bus/taxi from there to Rikisesh). Lovely, quite untouristed, no hassles. Lots of temples and ashrams. Wonderful aarti. Gorgeous countryside, you can do hiking. Haridwar has an aarti, but is a far more crowded city than Rikisesh. I prefer the latter.

I actually don’t find Udaipur to be full of hassles. Jaipur perhaps a bit at some places like the Amber palace entrance and the Palace of Winds. But not really in an overweening way. (I am not sure you will find Jodhpur to be the oasis of tout-free strolling you may be expecting.) The only place full of overweening hassles IMO is the 100 yards leading to the Taj Mahal. And you are already going there. Twice.

I don’t actually see any temples on your itin below, other than the Jain temple at Ranakpur (and yes, there is a Shiva temple at the entrance to Kumbuhlgarh, and I think a few others scattered further away). I have not been to Bundi, but don’t think there are temples of significance there. In the area you are going, Pali has some temples and you may want to include that as a substitute for something else. Of course Puskhar is a major pilgrammage centre. These may work better with the fact that you have a short time, want to include Jodphur, and need to end up in the north.

Finally, I would say that if you really want to see temples, you should go to south India, where there are more and varied (Hindu) temples. Many temples in the north did not survive the Mughal invasion (although Delhi has several significant ones). But your itin is fine for forts. And of course you will find Hindu temples and shrines all over the place, it is just that the more interesting ones, IMO, are in the south (e.g. Madurai). Although the southeast coast will be rainy in October.

My comments on your itin generally would be:

Oct 17: arrive in Delhi (possibly book a homestay - leave all gear needed for the bird count hike there)

Oct 18: Travel to Agra early, hit the Taj and Fort

Oct 19: <i>Taj at dawn, back to Delhi to fly to Jodhpur (13:05-13:55 flight)</i> Why don’t you just take a night train from Agra to Jodhpur? This takes about 10 hours, which all things considered is not that much longer than driving to Agra and flying will take. There are day trains too. The reason for that is that I have some serious doubts about making a 1 pm flight after seeing dawn at the Taj. The drive takes 4 hours assuming no traffic at all, and nothing else like a road accident (by others not your own car) slowing you down. It is fine if you were just driving to Delhi, but with having to make a flight, IMO it becomes more of an issue. Sunrise in October won’t be until about 6 am. (See sunrisesunset.com) You absolutely have to be on the road by 7:30 am at the very latest. This does not give you a lot of time at the Taj, and to also check-out, etc.

I also wonder why you are rushing back to Delhi when you could go to (i) Fatephur Sikri and (ii) Bharataphur bird park. The latter esp would seem to fit your interests. The former is of fairly significant historical and architectural interest. There are also several temples in the Bharataphur area (although I have not been to any.) From Bharataphur you could get a night train to Jodhpur, there are trains at 8 and 9 pm which would seem to work well. (You can also get a night train to Chittogarh if you decide to skip Jodhpur. Kota is only 4 hours by train from Bharataphur and may work well too for a day train although there are night trains which take longer.)

Oct 20: <i>Jodhpur</i> seems like a lot of travel for one day. There are desert areas, and the town is more than just the fort. Seems like a bit of a waste.

Oct 21: <i>Hire a driver, leaving early to go to Ranakpur + Kumbulgarh, ending in Chittorgarh</i> Wow, wow what a day. My guess is that you are looking at something like at least 8-9 hours in the car, <i>plus</i> sightseeing and Ranakpur/Kumbulgarh. At least it won’t be too hot. 5 hours is about my limit for a day on Indian roads, for nothing else than that is as long as I want to hear <i>my own driver</i> honking incessantly. My preference is also to stay off Indian roads at night (except in cities), and with that amount of driving you may end up doing some part of it at night; not something I am comfortable with, but see how you feel after you have been on a few Indian roads. Part of the reason that this journey is so long is that Kumbulgargh is not really on the way to Chittogarh. Just driving Jodhpur to Chittogarh would only take about 5 hours (I am basing this on the mileage and road maps, I have not done it), but detouring to Kumbulgarh will add quite a bit of time.

Therefore if you want to see Kumbulgarh and Ranakpur, my suggestion is that you stay overnight at Kumbulgarh. This will give you time to see the area, plus there is an evening sound and light show at the fort. Take a look at the Aodhi, see http://www.eternalmewar.in/User/Trav..._Retreats.aspx. You can also take a horse, jeep or go on foot into the nature preserve, which may interest you. Ranakpur is not open to non-Jains until about Noon every day, so plan around that.

Oct 22: <i>Chittorgarh, leaving for Bundi in the afternoon (notes are sketchy... I think I was thinking bus or driver for this leg...)</i> The Mewar Express train to Bundi takes 2 hours. It leaves at 9 pm. This would be the best choice, as it gives you the most time at Chittogarh. Otherwise bus or driver is fine, but again I would avoid roads at night if you can.

Oct 23: <i>Bundi, leaving late to take overnight train from Kota to Delhi.</i> There are overnight trains from Bundi, I don’t understand going to Kota to get a train. I believe they are the same trains. Perhaps I am missing something.

Oct 24: <i>Delhi (picking up the hiking gear), take overnight train to Haridwar</i> I think a day train, esp one of the express trains, is the better way to go. Esp if you are already taking a night train the day before from Bundi/Kota. Two night trains in a row is not my idea of fun. Moreover, the train trip from Delhi to Haridwar only takes 4-5 hours, and so some of those night trains will arrive at 3 am, not a great time to be looking for a hotel. Also, if you take a night train from Delhi you have to hang around Delhi for a late night departure. I would just take a day train as soon as you arrive from Bundi/Kota. There is also the superfast Dehradun Shababdi which takes 3.5 hours. It leaves Delhi at 7 am, I think you could make this connection from the overnight train. Make sure your trains are going into and out of the same stations in Delhi (there are three stations in Delhi plus Ghaziabad which is 10 miles or outside the city), or leave time to switch stations.

You could of course take a train from Kota to Haridwar or Deradun, but from what I see this will take 18-20 hours. I can see where that may not be as attractive.

Oct 25: <i>Haridwar</i> As mentioned above, you could substitute 2 days in Rikisesh for this.

Oct 26: Haridwar to Dehradun by evening

Oct 27-30: Bird count (sounds like we'll be assigned trails in the Garhwal Mtns)

Oct 31: 16:20 <i>flight from Dehradun to Delhi. Flight out leaves shortly after midnight on November 1.</i>You will have to change terminals to get to your international flight, including taking your bags. The domestic and international terminals are several miles apart. There is a free shuttle bus, and if you have the time and want to wait for it, you can use that (although it seems to run on a infrequent schedule, you will be told “coming soon Madam”; and then will wait another 45 minutes). You can also just use a pre-paid taxi. That would be my recco. You could also hire the taxi to take you someplace like the Radisson hotel for dinner before you head to the airport. You won’t be allowed into the terminal until 9 pm or thereabouts, so you may have some time to spare.

You also might want to consider re-ordering the itin, as the palces you want to see are all over the map, and some are signficatnly south of Dehradun (esp Kota). I think there may be a better way to do the routing. If you can actually take a later flight home and leave Agra for the end of the trip, that may work better. I think if you play around with ideas you may come up with better alternatives. But I would still say to drop some of places on your itin. You don't want to be exhausted when you have to start the hike for the bird count.

Wow - thanks for the great advice! On the topic of hassles, I realize that at any of the Golden Triangle hotspots I will be tout bait, so am just trying to avoid a steady diet of that... particularly since I just heard I’ll likely be going solo. Plus folks are always saying how boring it is to just hit those main tourist spots, and Bundi sounds a little different from those. I’m thinking about just coming up from Kumbulgarh to Ajmer/Pushkar (simpler route), but they just don’t strike me as quite as appealing as Bundi, and folks have opined here that Pushkar isn’t all that interesting when the camel fair isn’t happening.
I can't believe I forgot to mention Fatehpur Sikri, though - in a way I've been more excited about it than the Taj. I don't know about making time for the bird park, because I'm thinking I'll get plenty of that on the hikes.

OK, here are some revisions to try to incoporate some of the excellent advice above.

Oct 17: arrive in Delhi (homestay, preferably near train station for ease of picking up hiking gear later)

Oct 18: Travel to Agra early, visiting the Taj and Fahtepur Sikri + Fort if time allows. Overnight train to Jodhpur (genius, Cicerone!)

Oct 19-20: Jodhpur

Oct 21: Hire a driver (Ramesh Meena, if possible), leaving early to go to Ranakpur + Kumbulgarh, overnight Kumbulgarh

Oct 22: Drive to Bundi (~120 miles) in morning, overnight Bundi

Oct 23: Bundi. From what I have read, I think I have to take the overnight train from Kota to Delhi. (Might have to post another thread asking if anyone knows if I can get on in Bundi?)

Oct 24: Delhi (picking up the hiking gear), take express to Haridwar or Rishikesh (I didn’t realize I could see the ganga aarti in either)

Oct 25: Haridwar or Rishikesh

Oct 26: Haridwar to Dehradun by evening

Oct 27-30: Bird count

Oct 31: 16:20 flight from Dehradun to Delhi, then fly out after midnight 11/1

OK, I’ve only actually dropped Chittorgarh… so maybe still too much. Although this is at least looking more reasonable than my first stab!

We drove from Jaipur to Fatehpur Sikri, then to Agra. Check a map to see how fair FS is from Agra. You don't say how you're going to go from Delhi-Agra-Fatehpur Sikri all in one day. Still a large order . . .

Dropping Chittorgarh is sensible.

I travel alone in India frequently. Really it is not an issue. They are just a hazard of India. Just by the way you are dressed and because you appear to be well-fed and prosperous, you will be a target for touts in some areas. (This happens even if you are Indian.) They will want to sell you things or act as tour guide. But simply ignore them. Do not engage them in conversation. But the touts are no reason to avoid going to places which you want to go to. Perhaps you have been given a misimpression of the problem. I think they are worse in other places, especially parts of Bali and the PRC.

The other advantage of being a woman is that Indian women will readily engage you in conversation, something they would not do so easily with foreign men, so you can have some nice encounters, in my experience. Woman may approach you on trains and in airports to ask what are seemingly very personal questions (“are you married”, what is your job”, “how much money do you earn” – you can fudge on that one), but these conversations with local women can be very interesting, so I would not shy away from them.

I agree Bundi sounds interesting. I think people fined Puskhar “boring” without the camel fair because they don’t have an interest in Hinduism, whether it is the art, symbolism or history as such a significant part of the culture. They just want to see camels. You had expressed an interest in temples, so I thought this might be of interest to you.

My only real comment on your itin is your plan for Agra

Oct 18: <i>Travel to Agra early, visiting the Taj and Fahtepur Sikri + Fort if time allows. Overnight train to Jodhpur (genius, Cicerone!)</i> This is not really a good idea, IMO. A day trip to Agra is something I really try to suggest that people rethink. First of all, you will miss sunrise at the Taj which is really when it is at its most beautiful. To go all that way to see it only in the harsh mid-day sun is sort of silly. You might be able to catch sunset, but that may not be possible if you also want to go to Fathepur Sikri, as the sunset will start around 5:30 pm. And really I am not sure that trying to include a train trip to Agra, and the drive to FS in one day would be that enjoyable. If you take the Shatabdi Express to Agra, you will arrive just after 8 am. By the time you get to the Taj Mahal my guess is that it will be around 9 am (you’ll have to hire a driver for the day to take you to the Taj and FS, and you will need him to hold your luggage for the day, this will take haggling, etc). I think you want at least an hour here. You probably will want/need breakfast after that. So probably by 11 am, at the earliest, you may be ready for the next part of the itin. (This of course assumes that the train arrived on time in the first place, even just a half hour delay may throw this whole schedule out the window.) FS is about 1.5 hours drive from Agra. You need at least 2 hours there. So that is 5 hours. IMO the fort and/or sunset at the Taj will have to be sacrificed. And then a night train to look forward to on top of a 5 am start that day. I don’t understand the rush. If you feel you are going to the Taj just to check it off on a bucket list, then skip it entirely and go places which interest you. There is no sin in going to India and not going to the Taj Mahal. There is plenty of beauty to be found. Otherwise, if you want to see the Taj and fort and FS, do yourself a favour and spend the night.

If you do it as a day trip, my prediction is that you will hate Agra, as most people who make a day trip do. That is because all you will see of it is the 100 yards around the Taj (loaded with touts) and possibly the Fort (some there at entrance plus the ever-present people wanting to guide you). You will then see a mess of busy streets as you drive out of town. You will miss the charming lanes around the mosque and old town.

If you do this and are taking the Shatabdi Express to Agra, that departs from New Delhi station. You may want to stay at a hotel close to the New Delhi station. Look around the Connaught Place area for home stays. This is also close to Old Delhi Station where you probably will depart for Haridwar/Rikisesh (see below). Places like Karol Bagh would not be a good location, IMO.

Oct 23: <i>Bundi. From what I have read, I think I have to take the overnight train from Kota to Delhi. (Might have to post another thread asking if anyone knows if I can get on in Bundi?)</i> From what I can see, from Bundi you can take either the Dehradun Express (Train 9019A, departs 5:30 pm) or the Mewar Express (train 2415, departs 11 pm) to Delhi. These are the SAME trains which depart Kota at 7:30 pm and midnight, respectively. They arrive into Nizamuddin station at between 5 and 6:30 am. That is why I don’t see the point of going to Kota to get the same train. However, there are some additional night trains from Kota, they appear to depart around 10 pm and arrive at 4:30 am into New Delhi station, which could be an advantage if your hotel is near New Delhi station. But bear in mind that you have to get to Kota first, so include time for this.

With your travel dates, I think the only train to Haridwar you can make is the Delhi Ambala Passenger (Train 305) which departs from Old Delhi station at 10:20 am and arrives into Haridwar at 3:30 pm and Rikisesh at 5:30 pm. You should have time to collect your stuff and get to Old Delhi station within that time. (Hopefully your homestay is OK with opening their door at 5:30 am or so. You may want to consider staying at an actual hotel in New Delhi which is more 24 hours, as you can leave luggage there and also have breakfast and sit around the coffee shop/lobby while you wait for 3-4 hours or so to go to the station. Not sure what you will find at a homestay at 6 am in terms of breakfast and waiting room. Otherwise, I would say from the Kota train to go first to a nearby hotel and have breakfast and wait and then go to the homestay to collect your luggage closer to your departure time. Someplace like the Intercontinental Hotel in Connaught Place would certainly have breakfast at all hours. ) New Delhi station is on the metro line, but with all your gear, I think a car will work much better for you.

Make sure you have your reservations/tickets, esp for night trains, well in advance of your trip.

Oct 24: <i>Delhi (picking up the hiking gear), take express to Haridwar or Rishikesh (I didn’t realize I could see the ganga aarti in either)</i> You can see aartis in many places in India, including Varanasi which is also on the Ganges. The ones in Haridwar tend to be more crowded (at least in my limited experience) as it is a much larger town. That is why I prefer Rikisesh. It's like a very small town, entirely walkable and in a beautiful setting.

As Cicerone has already written a short novel in response to your query, I'll keep this brief.

You'll be exhausted by the time you hit the bird-count. Can I suggest you make a detailed itinerary for yourself, break the days down into hours, allot your train/drive/fly times, allow yourself time to sleep, eat, shower and get confused - then calculate just how long you will have to actually SEE what you're going to India to see.

I suspect your calculations will give you rather a surprise.

You know, over the past few months I've laughed at how most people's itineraries make the SAME STUPID MISTAKE (way too much) and yet when I work on my own it is soooo tempting to make the SAME STUPID MISTAKE.... Yeah, I see that there's no way to get to Delhi before 8:30pm on the 17th, so turning around for a marathon day in Tout Central (on Day One) might not be so very clever. What I really wanted when I started planning was a good chunk of time in Fahtepur Sikri + the Taj at dusk and dawn, but if that's not feasible because Jodhpur and Bundi are higher priorities I'm thinking I'll just spend that first day resting and picking up a salwar kameez, then take an overnight train to Jodhpur. (Or reverse that leg by taking the train to Bundi, and flying from Jodhpur to Delhi at the end.) I'll have to decide on that fast to start getting things booked. A hotel is sounding like perhaps a better option in Delhi, based on Cicerone's points, as does Rishikesh over Haridwar (added benefit being that it's even closer to Dehradun). Maybe Bundi is still too rushed, but I hate to give that up....

If the bird count goes well (I'm really looking forward to interacting with locals and ~100 mostly Indian birders as an ecologist instead of yet another dollar-dripping tourist), I'd like to come back and do it again in a year or two & maybe make that a Taj/F-Sikri/Jaipur/Pushkar trip.

Thanks for all the help!

Tell us what's in Bundi that you want to see.

I've read some good reviews of Bundi being less touristy and chaotic than better-known destinations, but with an interesting palace, fort and stepwells, blue-painted buildings.... It just looked and sounded like an appealing place to hang out for a couple of days. I keep hearing folks say to think outside the box and consider the 'lesser' towns, but haven't heard many specific tips on undiscovered gems other than this one.

Gina - I'm with you ALL the way. Bravo you for trying to think outside the box. Your impulses are 100% right but your planning is kinda strange and, as I said, you'll just be horribly, horribly tired and India will crowd in on you and eat you.

Go here:
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...-treasures.cfm

Look at these two trips to get you in the zone:

DOGSTER'S SLO-O-O-OW RURAL MADHYA PRADESH & SOUTH-EASTERN RAJASTHAN TRIP

No driving place to place more than 2 hours, max.

INDORE: Rashid Kothi, Indore - see www.ahilyafort.com
MAHESHWAR: www.ahilyafort.com
DHAR/MANDU: http://www.heritagehotelsofindia.com...lace-dhar.html
AMLA: www.fortamla.com
UJJAIN: www.indiaprofile.com/hotels-india/hotels-ujjain/

UJJAIN to JHALAWAR – 4-6 hours driving.

JHALAWAR: www.kokoindia.com/main/maharaja.htm
KOTA: www.indianheritagehotels.com/property.asp?id=142
BAINSROGARH: www.bhainsrorgarh.com
BUNDI: hotelbundihaveli.com/
BASSI: www.bassifortpalace.com/
KHEMPUR: www.ravlakhempur.com
BHINDUR: http://www.heritagehotelsofindia.com...r-udaipur.html
KARNI: www.karnihotels.com/kf_about.htm
UDAIPUR: zillions of choices

Just start again. Drop the Taj Mahal. Do it next time. Please, just fergeddabout all those overnight trains. One sleepless night and you'll be exhausted for days. You'll never catch up. Fly.

or go look here:
http://blog.mahindrahomestays.com/category/itinerary/

http://www.mahindrahomestays.com/Pages/home.aspx

For some inside dope on hustlers of all shapes and sizes go here:

thedogster.wordpress.com

Click on the book. The Mumbai section gives you more information than you'll ever possibly need.

Dogster and I have a friendly difference of opinion about Indian trains. He's only ever been on the very expensive tourist train Golden Chariot (or some name like that). I've been on a lot of regular Indian trains with regular Indian people, and I like them because they give you an opportunity to meet regular Indian people - 2AC is best for that. It's true that if you're in 2AC and there are a lot of overnight stops you might not sleep so well - pick a route and train with as few night time stops as possible.

See http://seat61.com/India.htm for info and pix of Indian trains. I plan to ride them again on my next trip. BTW, dogster seems to attract hustlers - in 10 weeks traveling in India I didn't encounter a single "jimmy". For a more sedate Indian trip featuring trains see wilhelmswords.com/asia2001

It's not the trains and the lovely Indians that concern me, thursday - it's purely a question of 'will she get to sleep'? and 'does she want to share a bedroom with three total strangers?'

With a schedule like Ms. Gina's, one lost night's sleep and she'll be cactus.

Thursday doesn't meet 'jimmys' because Indians are very superstitious. They think she's the Devil and steer clear.

"They think she's the Devil and steer clear" - not the ones on trains, apparently. Maybe they're a different breed from jimmys.

Thursday, trust me - they are a VERY different breed.

Oh wow, step off the wifi grid for a few days and you just never know what might be going on with your thread... ; )

Yes, I'm pretty sure the Taj and F-Sikri are off the table. Nothing's locked in yet except the flights - although I'd better get trains and lodging booked soon. Many, many thanks for all the links. Maybe I can piece together something more compact from those suggestions.

From what I've read here and at that seat61 site, I've been planning all along to make substantial use of trains (2AC sounded best to me, too), but maybe just one overnighter. If I can't sleep, the upside is perhaps I'll look and act enough like a devil to frighten the riffraff. (I feel a little better prepared than most lone women travelers in that I have a black belt in karate... but enough sense to never wish to use those particular skills. Sounds like most assaults are fortunately more of the swindling variety, and take mental strength and balance to defend against. Kind of a mental aikido, I'm thinking...)

I finally received our trekking route options and most aren't too grueling. One warns participants to stay within park boundaries or risk trampling by wild elephants. So not Washington State!