"But it doesn't really sound like Patrick has found that on his tour as he does mention going solo for drinks and dinner rather than with any friends."

Huh? I have wonderful friends at home. But I still do things solo. And I've traveled extensively with a couple friends, but we still go our own ways some times. What does going out ONE evening by myself have to do with not having "built-in friends" on the tour? I'm in a great group and we all get along fabulously. Will any of them be my new best friend forever? No, I don't think so. We were joking just yesterday that what this group seems to be missing is one traveler who stands out as being the obnoxious one -- the one everyone else talks about (unless it's me and I just didn't know it). And I DO like the idea that there are opportunities in the tour to reflect by myself and do somethingon my own. I can't imagine how anyone would consider that a negative (other than having a mind made up that there is nothing good about tours--even having a little independence is bad?). KimJapan, since you clearly believe in traveling alone, I can't imagine why you would think anyone would want to stick with the group 24/7.

And KimJapan, if you have some time to kill, do me a favor. Check out the cost of the 5 flights in this tour (including the flights between Bangkok and Vietnam-- then add in the cost of getting from Nha Trang to Dalat, from Hanoi to Halong Bay and back, from Hue to Hoi An, and from Hoi An to Danang. Then add in the cost of a SINGLE cruise on Halong Bay on an air-conditioned boat. Then allow $50 per night for rooms for 17 nights (even though you will not match the quality of the hotels we're staying in for that price in most cases, particularly in Bangkok). Then tell me how much of the $1900 this tour costs you have left over to pay for all the other transportation, for hiring private guides and drivers and getting to various places, for the nearly 45 meals, for admissions, all the bottled water they give us, the various snacks, and many extras. My guess is that you will have spent the $1900 before you get to ANY of that, just on the airfares, transfers, and hotels.

I don't mind people not liking tours. Fine. But for some to keep insisting I could have matched this trip on my own for the same price, I'd really like some proof. Meanwhile I'd like to know how one goes about arranging a group dinner in a monestary or visiting an orphange, and arranging to be hosted in a family home for lunch and another one for dinner. Or why any traveler traveling solo would want to do those things alone.

And WillJame, yes, the savings would certainly be diminished when two people are sharing a room. Literally they together are paying double for the exact same room that I'm getting for 17 nights (none of my rooms have been special singles, but all have been doubles).

I've also been surprised at some of the flexibility of the tour -- certainly which wouldn't happen with a larger group. Yesterday on the way back from our other stops, several people had asked about "Crazy House" in Dalat -- they had read about it and it isn't on our itinerary, so the guide asked how many were interested, and when many were, he said the bus was going by there on our way back to the hotel and we could stop for a half hour (in ended up 20 minutes was fine) so we did. We have stopped the bus a dozen times for impromptu photo ops, or to stop and talk with a farmer near the road harvesting rice, or the boys moving their water buffalo, for example. And I never would have had any of those opportunities for the interaction and learning if I had been traveling on my own. The interaction with REAL Vietnamese (not just hotel staff and shop and restaurant people) and the true learning about the local culture and people has been the biggest difference between this tour and the other 7 weeks of Asia travel I did independently before starting this trip. It is a HUGE difference.

from that TA report: "the meals are mediocre and tedious".

I laugh -- yes having Vietnamese food two to three times a day (most of the hotels offer both Vietnamese and Western breakfast), can be tedious to some, and I've even heard here "all the food starts to taste the same." Yes, there is generally soup twice a day and most Vietnamese soups are different, weather they are chicken, shrimp, noodle, no noodle, white bean, asparagus, or any of the other various types we have had. And he is right. There is no real variety like fajitas tonight, or spaghetti and meatballs another. People who want lots of other choices in food rather than local should not travel with OAT -- where all meals (with our one lunch exception in Hanoi) are definitely very typical Vietnamese cooking. And all our meals have been served family style with a minimum of four main courses. If someone only wants the chicken, or the pork, or the seafood, or the beef dish -- then he can do that. But if course if you take some of each of those, then likely the next day you're going to see variations on those same four main courses (generally all with vegetables of various kinds and different sauces). We've also had venison and lamb, and more kinds of seafood that you can imagine.

Some people will complain about the food no matter what. When I did go off by myself the other night, part of the reason was that the others were going to a more "Western" restaurant. But when I stopped and looked a lot of Vietnamese menus in front of restaurants, I was having a hard time finding anything on any menu which I haven't already had on this tour. It's been about as varied as one cuisine can be -- with even having regional differences in the same dish.

Relax. It was a simple observation about your alone time. You just had not rely mentioned any friends made on the tour and you did mention dining alone. No more. No less.

As far as the home and school visits, a quick google search on Nha Trang tours yielded a slew of results, private and join in, that had your same experiences and more.

I'm not going to Vietnam anytime soon, nor do I have time or inclination to price it all out now, which is why I said I had not done it.

I'm glad that you are enjoying your tour. Really. I'm just saying you can do it on your own, especially meeting local people and talking to farmers. No need for a bus tour for that.

I will repeat myself. If the tour itinerary, price and style are agreeable to you and you are fine with the limitations of a tour then do it. If not, you can do it on your own. Do what you want. What's right for one may be wrong for another. Luckily we have options.

Oh and while someone above said, "what a shame you didn't get to see the tombs at Hue", well I could have. I had enough free time. This tour focuses much more on the things one can't do easily on one's own (like the interaction with locals). While some of the more obvious sites are included on the basic tour, others are up to your own discretion and easy to arrange on your own. After visiting the Ming tombs in China (which seem to get much bigger raves than the Hue tombs) and finding them a yawn, I doubt thought that I would have done them.

It's also funny that I sat next to an Australian couple on the plane to Nha Trang and I asked them if they had seen the tombs, as this was just after reading the question that morning here about seeing them. It seems they took a tour with a small group (they are traveling independently) and it was to visit something like 5 of the tombs. The group (I think there were 6 or them) decided after four not to to the others and asked if they could return. It was incredibly hot, and according to this couple "One was really interesting, the others were nothing to get excited about". I questioned our group leader and he said OAT used to include them but it was one of the least impressive things in Hue according to the travelers -- and they have since focused there more on the orphanage and pagoda visits (where we had lunch).

OK, KimJapan, I'll agree that it is possible when traveling alone to do some of those interaction things by making special arrangements. But interaction with a farmer along the road short of hiring a private guide/interpreter? Would anyone be able to ask the questions I ask and get an answer? Could anyone explain what I'm looking at time and time along the side of the road? And the bottom line is that while I COULD do some of those things, I simply wouldn't, and I'd venture to say that 99% of independent travelers don't do those things like school or orphanage visits or having lunch with the Buddhist nuns either. I've always regarding tours as mainly just hitting the most "touristed" spots in an area. Well, I'm finding that with this OAT tour, it's exactly the opposite. We often skip the spots most typically visited by most independent or group travelers, and instead do the more unusual or close to the local culture learning experiences. Again, that's not for everyone! And certainly if you're interested in hitting the tourist and famous highlights of the country rather than interacting with locals, then the OAT Inside Vietnam tour is definitely NOT for you, and you are likely to come back very disappointed.

I guess what I'm really saying that for ME the real difference on this trip was that traveling alone as I did in China, Thailand, and Laos I did LESS than I'm doing on this tour. If you want to put it this way, then an organized tour tends to "make" me do a lot of things I simply never would have done on my own -- and I'm loving that. Today it is raining in Dalat. If I were here on my own, I probably would just do very little today but maybe revisit the market we visited yesterday. But my bus will be here in 15 minutes and we are off to a variety of adventures and that's a GOOD thing for me. Would I be getting up at 6:30 to squeeze in five activities in one day if I were traveling alone? Nope. But I'm glad I am. I can sleep till 9 when I get back home.

now lets get back to the really interesting stuff...NP's trip and how he is enjoying it!!

NeoPatrick - this is why I don't ever write anything about trips when I've gone with a tour even though they have been fabulous and I think the information could help others who are looking for a similar experience. Most fodorites do not like to believe a tour can be anything but their worst nightmare -- which they can be I'm sure. But with some good planning & research (& luck) you can find one that surpasses what you would experience independently. Glad you found that!

Right on, rhkkmk....taking an escorteed tour is not just about the money....it is also about the ease of the trip and the cameraderie of fellow travelers (hopefully). Those doing it know that there will likely be some concessions made...but don't we always make concessions in life. I, too prefer independent travel, but sometimes a tour just makes sense.

Let's hear more about your wonderful trip...I'm anxious to do ours.

Patrick: I can't wait to hear more about the trip!

Patrick, many thanks for your thoughtful and persuasive replies to the various issues that have been raised. I apologize if my questions about OAT derailed what was intended as a trip report. I am trying to weigh the options of tour vs independent, and have been looking into dates and itineraries.
If folks will permit another comment: Patrick, I believe you mentioned somewhere above--I can't find it now--that your tour was almost cancelled due to a lack of participants. I notice elsewhere that a traveller was disappointed by a last-minute OAT cancellation. The Inside Vietnam tour that I was looking at yesterday for 8-25 March is not on the OAT website today. (In the meantime I had been looking at various flights to Hanoi from Japan.) The "subject to change" factor was not something I had thought of with regard to tours.
I want to assure my fellow posters that I am not just nit-picking or fault-finding here. I genuinely want to get some first-hand information to help my make my own decision. I thought that this is partly what this forum is about.
But, yes, let's hear more about your trip.

OAT removes dates from their web pages as the date becomes filled to capacity(16). If the March 8 date is no longer there, then it is probably filled. Also, OAT, as do most other tour companies, reserve the right to cancel the trip if too few people sign up for the trip. So if you make your own plane reservations, this is a risk that you must assume. If you do the air inclusive with the trip company, and the trip is cancelled, then you are out nothing. Patrick-I am really enjoying your report, and look forward to hearing about the last few days of the trip.

WillJame, I don't know what happened to those dates but I'd be astonished if a March trip was already sold out. They might easily sell out the two available single postions, but hardly a whole tour that far in advance. But they've been readjusting, partially because they are putting more emphasis on their "Ancient Kingdoms" tours, according to our leader (he's in training to do that tour as well, which includes Cambodia and Laos, I think). I would think perhaps they are still re-arranging things that far ahead, not selling it out. But who knows.

Yes, I did my own airfare as part of an extended Asia trip, and that's why I worried if they canceled the trip, because I could not readjust my flight dates. Most people on our tour booked in the last two to three months before going. But the possibility of cancellation is something to think about if you're doing your own airfare.

Hold on folks, I just arrived in Saigon, and I'll try to get caught up today with the DaLat part of the trip.

DALAT:

The bus left NhaTrang at 8:30 for the 4 hour or so drive to Dalat.
Lee, our guide, was telling us that he and his wife love Dalat but it makes him sad to go there without his wife because it is such a romantic city -- well, I didn't get that. But he also spent a year there as a boy when their family were war refugees living there, and he had a young brother die there -- appendicitis that couldn't be diagnosed until too late.

The drive up the mountains was beautiful, and we meade several stops for photo ops, including one where Lee was handed all 12 cameras to take a group photo with each of them. We also stopped and "chatted" with some farmers picking coffee beans and persimmons growing together. This is the height of the persimmon "harvest" and we saw them everywhere. Upon arrival in Dalat we were astonished by the thousands of green houses (actually frames with plastic --not glass) as Dalat is the flower growing and vegetable growing capital of Vietnam, exporting tons of cut flowers mainly to Japan and Korea.

We had lunch at a little restaurant called Trong Dong -- as usual family style and about four main courses, plus appetizers and dessert.

Afterwards we made a stop at the market and Lee walked us through, sampling some of the dried fruits and the fruit candies made locally. Then we went to the nearby mountain and took a long cable car down into a valley to the Truc Lam Zen Buddhist Pagoda, a beatiful complex of buildings and gardens (all built within the past 20 years) as a retread for Buddhist monks and others who want to study and meditate. On the way back to our hotel, we improvised a stop at "Crazy House" because several people had asked about it, we had a little free time, and it would be easier than people coming back on their own. Crazy House is a sort of small hotel or guest house that looked like it was designed by Gaudi on crack. Actually the architect is the owner, a woman who is the former daughter of the head of the Communist Party (I think) who studied in Russia, then built this place. You wander up bizarre stairways and go into little suites that look like a cross between Hansel and Gretel cottages, and something out of Fantasia. It is truly bizarre.

Back at the hotel we had time for a shower and a change -- it had been a light drizzle much of the afternoon. The hotel was the Mercure Dalat, which some of us had worries about due to bad reviews on TripAdvisor, particularly about the lack of AC, but the fact is that NO hotel in Dalat including the only 5 star one has AC. And since it was cool -- pretty much in the 60's and maybe the 50's at night, we didn't need it and didn't need to open our windows either.

Tonight was our family hosted dinners. We split into two groups, 6 each going with two families -- pretty much middle or upper-middle class ones. Our group luckily had a couple who owned a restaurant in town for many years but they sold it and retired last year. Our food was exceptional -- spring rolls which they roll in fresh lettuce and herbs before dipping them in a sauce, white bean soup, pork in a clay pot on rice, a vegetable omelette, shrimp and tempura veggies, and later fresh persimmon milkshakes for dessert.

The purpose of these home hosted dinners (besides being a chance for us to meet some real people in their home) is that the common thread seems to be families who have kids in University in tourism and who are learning advanced English. The parents in both cases also speak English, and ours have been to the US to visit their daughter and grandchildren -- their daughter having married an American and they live in Pennsylvania. So we sat in the living room and talked about lots of things, then the niece who lives there (I lost track of things as it's a 14 room house and a couple of sisters and their families live there, but they had a couple more university guests), took us upstairs to the "shrine" to their ancestors and to their religion Cao Dai, which believes in both Buddha and Jesus as well as a number of other people. She explained their religion to us and we all lit incense and had a little prayer for our own families. It was a most interesting night (including meeting 6 adorable new born puppies).

The next morning was a optional tour, but everyone chose to take it -- I thing mainly as we didn't see a lot of options of things to do there on our own. It rained pretty much all day which added to our adventure. A local guide joined us (required -- for us to visit a local hill tribe). But first we stopped at a local farmers and visited a couple of the greenhouses -- they were growing roses, gerbera daisies in a variety of colors, statis (sp?), and baby's breath. Then we headed to the hill tribe village -- Buon Chuoi. The bus went on a dirt -- or rather MUD road until we came to a place where a gulley had washed out across the road. The driver surveyed it and although some rocks had been placed in it, he and Lee moved some and got more to make two "bridges" across the deep ravine. We all got out of the bus and trekked through the mud while the bus inched over the rocks, then we got back on. We made a stop at a nice farmhouse (where arrangements were made) for a restroom stop. Our guide said the women could use the "happy room" which was located on the main floor off a big farm storage room, and the men should use a "happy tree" behind the house. The bus then reached the end of the road, when it turned to a path too narrow and we were met by tractor pulling a wagon with benches for us to sit on (no roof) and off we went with our umbrellas up until we reached the village. OAT has donated a classroom -- a separate cement block and tin room building at the little school. We were greeted warmly by families who allowed us to walk through there very humble mostly dirt floor, wooden shacks, with an open fire in the middle of the room. The whole town was sort of overrun with Vietnamese potbellied pigs wandering free. We saw some of the 20 community wells, but the government has recently provided running water to the community -- several faucets located throughout the village and basic electricity to the homes so they each can have an electric light or two, and of course now TVs and radios. We also sat and had tea with the chief while an old woman (I think his mother) was weaving in the corner. Children were happy to pose for us (so long as we showed them the pictures we took. It's an extremely poor village, no English spoken, but we all learned to say hello in their native language.

After this we got back on the tractor pulled wagon, then the bus, and again had to cross the gulley with us getting off the bus, and soon were back on an actual paved road. We next stopped at a small silk factory, where we watched the entire operation of pulling the silk threads from the cocoons, cleaning the threads, and weaving cloth. We were also treated to the delicacy of roasted silkworm larvae -- kind of bland but nutty tasting. Lee informed us that the year they lived in Dalat as refugees it was about their only source of protein as they mainly simply lived on a diet of rice.

Next (with our appetites whetted by the yummy larvae) we had lunch at restaurant in town called V. Pork with artichoke stems soup that was really good, chicken with ginger, shrimp with various fresh vegetables, a huge bowl of real SALAD -- boy, I didn't realize that's what I'd been missing for the past few weeks and it was deliciously fresh and good, beef shishkebobs with onions and peppers, and for dessert a delicious coconut cake -- almost like a coconut pie filing.

After lunch we went to Dalat University and a teacher there discussed the Vietnamese higher education system. The University has about 28,000 students on a rather pretty campus on the hillside overlooking Dalat. Then we were each greeted by two to three students who took each of us on our tour of the campus, mainly to chat in English. I had two senior girls one who spoke very good English and one not so good (but that's because her second language in college is Korean). These tours lasted about an hour so we had lots of opportunity to talk back and forth, but they were mainly asking the questions and totally curious about things in the US -- mine had a wild curiosity about Halloween. It was fun and of course we exchanged email addresses.

Then after the University we went to another small tribal village (one that had been relocated from the forests to the edge of Dalat after the war. We sat in a big open "meeting hall" with a metal room and an open fire and a "tree of life" in the center, and a group of 5 young men and 5 young women entertained us with traditional dances and songs. They we entertained they with the Hokey Pokey, and surprisingly they seemed to know it and joined in. We also joined them in the traditional wine drinking. Couples drink from a huge jug of rice wine (tasted a lot like sherry) through about 3 foot long bamboo drinking straws.

After the ceremony, we went to dinner at Viet Ngoc Duy, with perhaps our most "unusual meal" so far. First there was a creamy green vegetable soup, then big shrimp which were coated in a green sticky rice and deep fried with a really good and spicy sauce. Next, thin slices of venison with various herbs that had been cooked inside banana leaves and which we scooped on to those crackers they serve. Next came a course of barbequed fish. And finally hot pots were put on our table on burners -- boiling broth surrounded by chicken and various vegetables accompanied with plates of cooked noodles. Put the noodles in your bowl, add the other things, top with greens, and pour the broth over. Quite spicy and delicious. And then we had flambeed bananas with coconut ice cream. And if that wasn't enough, next we had a birthday cake for the second member of our group to have a birthday on the trip (OAT provides a cake for anyone who has a birthday). It was a huge and delicious meal.

We returned to the hotel about 9. This had been a really long and very busy day -- with pretty much non-stop light rain. And our wake up call for tomorrow was -- are you ready -- 5AM -- for a bus to our plane to Saigon which leaves at 7:55. But that didn't stop some of us from enjoying a couple drinks in the hotel bar before retiring. I was happy once again to see my best friend Johnny was staying at this hotel.

NeoPatrick, I'm a fiercely indepent DIY traveller, but your report and comments could almost persuade me to take an OAT tour!

It's too late for one in Vietnam though as I've explored most of it already in the course of two very lengthy visits, concentrating on out of the way places and meeting local people, and I'll be doing another 6-week solo stint next year. However, if OAT adopts the same approach to all the countries it visits it could be something I might consider in the future.

I'm a regular on the Trip Advisor VN forum (sorry Fodorites!), where people occasionally ask about organised tours. Would it be ok with you if I directed them to this thread?

Noepatrick-(great name by the way)I took the same trip with OAT as a single May 2008. You are helping me relive the wonderful memories of that trip - different guide, same itinerary. Interestingly enough, we also had a woman trip on the uneven pavement and was injured but was painfully able to continue the tour. When you don't always have someone to travel with, the OAT is a great way to go - went to Egypt and Morocco with them as well. In a couple of weeks, I am on my way to BKK and Bali on my own. Enjoy the rest of Vietnam!!!!!

RedKite, yes, that would be fine with me.

I'm continuing to follow along with you.

Patrick, I am so enjoying following along on this trip. Thanks for sharing.

Patrick

This is one of the best trip reports - keep it coming and thanks for sharing

Pat

We spent three nights in Nha Trang (rained almost the entire time) when our scheduled resort was blown away by a storm. Since we were traveling independently we found much less to do there than OAT found for you. Another plus for tours, but we did our best to explore the area. Since there were few other Americans there several local people took photos of us when we spent time in the big supermarket. I did have the most interesting massage of my life at our hotel. I do not think many women went to that massage parlor.