buzymom3

Hi All
We leave for Thailand, Cambodia and China on Friday and I am trying to book a few tours in Beijing. We are only there for 3 days and I feel that using either a driver and a guide or taking tours is the best use of our time.

I was wondering if anyone has any feed back on the following guides/tour companies:

tour-beijing.com - really great website and fast with getting back to my emails with questions

chinabeijingtourist.com/en/ - Leo's Private Tours
Very responsive also

Honestly, I'm just a mom trying to give my 2 girls great memories the easiest way possible. I just don't feel like I'd do the best job navigating. I don't want to stress or be scammed, like anyone else. I don't have a bunch of money to throw around so I am trying to do a combination of group tours and private car/guide. My DD is staying on for 5 weeks doing her clinical rotation helping rehab Chinese athletes so she will definitely learn the ropes!

We are going to Jinshanling and hiking the Great Wall.
This I am requesting a driver and an English speaking guide as we want to learn about the history of the area, the Towers, etc.

We are doing the basic must do tourist sites as that's really all we have time for. Going for Peking Duck on Sunday as it will be my last meal with my youngest daughter for a couple of months. We will figure that out on our own. Taxi most likely unless there is someplace special walking distance from the Renaissance Capital.

Both guarantee no shopping. So that's a plus.

Really hoping someone here has used either on. I am leaning toward Leo as I always believe in helping the little guy. Tour-Beijing.com is definitely a corporate entity.

Advice would be very welcome and accepted.

thursdaysd

Read this: https://medium.com/a-better-guide-to...s-df5d9b0a6dca

Then consider taking a good guide book with you and hiring a taxi as needed.

CanadaChinaTraveller

Traveling DIY requires an investment of time in doing research. As you are already seeing two other countries on this trip, I can understand why you'd want to be spoon fed. There is nothing wrong with your approach.
Unlike Peter, I think that there are many honest hard-working guides out there.
I would suggest that you book your own hotels and do a bit of research for dinner places. Insist with whoever you hire that you do not wish to have any shopping stops or "factory visits". It may impact the price that they charge but that's fine, you'll make a better use of your time.
I have never used a tour company in Beijing but I have often read about the first name, generally ok comments. I never heard of the second one. As you say, tour-Beijing's website has a lot of good information that you can use to DIY.

kja

I tend to agree with temppeternh, but if you are leaving this Friday, it would seem that the issue is moot. Honestly, for Beijing, I think it is difficult (at best) to you combine "tour" and "not being scammed." IME, it's hard enough to avoid being scammed by the taxis in that city! (Insisting on use of the meter would solve that problem, but many taxi drivers won't agree to use the meter -- and IME, they WILL try to scam you.) If you finding planning stressful and want to minimize stress, paying more than you could -- and getting scammed -- may be worth it to you.

I would suggest that 3 days is not enough to see the highlights of Beijing, and choosing Jinshanling as your visit to the Great Wall limits your options even further, as it will likely take more time than some of your other options. But I could be wrong! Whether you use Beijing's efficient and convenient metro system or buses, or instead pay many multiples of the public transpiration costs to work with a taxi or car and driver, I think you would do well to think through your priorities in advance. You will NOT be able to see them all....

If you want accurate information about what you are seeing, I strongly urge you to bring a good guidebook. Guides can only tell you what they know, and information is (and has been) so restricted in China for so long that many guides, no matter how well intentioned, don't know the facts.

For your Peking Duck experience, you might consider Da Dong. IME, reservations are necessary.

Good luck!

kja

I should add: Da Dong's Peking Duck is, as I understand it, not completely traditional and is instead prepared in a way that reduces the fat content of the served dish -- but I could be wrong! I am sure that it is delicious.

ticino

We have been to the Great Wall three times, the three times we asked the hotel to get us a driver and a guide the day before. We were very happy with everything all three times, two of the guides were outstanding, one was very good. All three were Chinese and spoke excellent English.

We have also taken lots of taxis as I don't like public transport (the Beijing subway is very good though!!) and in maybe 40-50 rides only once did the driver try to charge us too much, by an insignificant amount (like 20 instead of 10 USD). So I wouldn't worry too much about that. Only use the official taxis.

I agree 3 days is not enough for Beijing, it's a fantastic city with tons to see, and it's a city that feels very safe, much safer than cities in the US!!

kja

I love taking public transportation! Particularly in a culture as different from the West as China (even in today's world), It can sometimes provide wonderful opportunities to gain insights into local norms and traditions, or even interact with people from the area. And IMO, that could be a wonderful opportunity for your children!

As a rule, while in China I insisted on a metered taxi -- and then the rates seemed fair. But, as I noted in my trip report, getting a metered taxi was sometimes quite a challenge: "Once in Beijing, it was incredibly difficult to obtain a metered cab. ... I’d like to think that I would have asked myself why so many taxi drivers were willing to offer me such “deep” discounts off the metered rate, and why they would then protest so vehemently if I insisted on using the supposedly more expensive meter. The metered cab that I finally found (after an official intervened) cost 29 yuan – a far cry from the “discounted” rate of 150 to 250 yuan the drivers of the non-metered taxis tried to convince me to take."

And FWIW, I went by public transportation to the Great Wall at Badaling for the equivalent of just a few dollars and was back in Beijing in time to visit other sites on my list of priorities.

Again, if the OP wants to spend her money on arranged transport, go for it!

kja

A comment on the knowledge of guides:

As I noted in my trip report, I hired a car, driver, and guide to visit the Eastern Qing Tombs. My guide was very nice – and he was honest enough to admit that he knew <b>nothing</b> about any of the tombs I wanted to visit that day other than that of Empress Cixi. Apparently, she was the subject of the research he did to qualify for his degree or credentials or whatever, and what he told me about her was completely consistent with what I learned in advance – but I readily admit that I hadn’t done a LOT of reading. In contrast, he claimed to have <b>no</b> idea that China had EVER been “closed” to any Western tourists – he actually seemed very surprised that I even suggested the possibility! (I believe the U.S. prohibited Americans from visiting China without exceptional reason from 1949 though Nixon’d reepprochement with China in 1969.) Too, he denied knowing anything about a protest at Tiananmen Square in or around 1989. He was young enough that it is, I think, quite possible that he had no personal memory of these events. Nonetheless, I found it a bit disconcerting that he had<b>no</b>apparent knowledge of these events that I, personally, think rather significant. JMO.

kja

Sorry:
"hadnoapparent " = "had <b>no</b> apparent..."

thursdaysd

Not just Americans. From wikipedia: "Between 1949 and 1974, the People's Republic was closed to all but selected foreign visitors."

I thought the Chinese government had worked hard to suppress info about Tiananmen. Appears they were successful.

temppeternh

> As I noted in my trip report, I hired a car, driver, and guide to visit the Eastern Qing Tombs.

Just for the information of those who follow, between mid-April and September there are direct Chinese tour buses to the Eastern Qing Tombs on Saturdays and Sundays from Xuanwu Men. No shopping or other nonsense: just straight there and back for a fixed price. At the site you pay little three wheelers to take you between tombs. And the price includes discounted entry. It's a fraction of the cost of taking a car and driver. Either way, it's a vastly superior experience to the commonly visited Ming Tombs, as are the Western Qing Tombs to Beijing's south-east.

kja

Peter is, once again, filling in those details that are so often critical, even if omitted -- kudos!

As I noted in my trip report, none of the regular buses to the Eastern Qing Tombs were running when I was there -- some kind of road-work issue (or so I was told) -- and I started trying to find them on my first full day in Beijing! When the buses were still not running at the end of my trip, Peter helped me identify a different public transportation option, but it was not an option that gave me confidence that I would have the time I wanted on site, nor was it an option that gave me any latitude if I ran late. That's why I signed up for a tour, for which I was, ultimately, the sole enrollee ... so I ended up with my "own" car, driver, and guide.

I didn't see the Western Qing Tombs, but I can say that I thought the Eastern Qing Tombs fully worth the effort it took me to see them -- magnificent!


@ thursdaysd: Thanks for the additional context on the limitations to my guide's knowledge. Those gaps were, to my mind, rather stunning.

temppeternh

> That's why I signed up for a tour, for which I was, ultimately, the sole enrollee ... so I ended up with my "own" car, driver, and guide.

Sometimes things conspire to make it unavoidable to take such a trip even for those who prefer to avoid them, but that it's thought viable to run the tour with only one person (as is common) ought to make anyone wonder about just how big a mark-up there is on these trips. Usually (I don't know in this particular case) this is made up from kick-backs from entrance fees, meals, and most of all from shopping stops/factory tours.

Error above, the Western Qing Tombs are to the south-*west* of Beijing of course, about the same distance out as the Eastern ones, but with more complicated public transport options. There's nothing quite to match Cixi's tomb in the east, but there's more variety in the tombs. Probably few visitors will have time to see both, though.

Western Qing Tombs description:

http://bit.ly/2qILy0Y

CanadaChinaTraveller

Different people have different styles of travel, different expectations. Nothing wrong with that We are all different.
One can enjoy the research part of a trip as much as the trip itself so they like the DIY approach not just to save money. Some do it this way to save money. I know a guy who visits a different country every year and spends the year prior to the trip learning the language (he discovered once in China that learning Mandarin part time for a year is good but still won't take you so far)
Others prefer to do minimal research and pay someone to take care of everything. Some will even pay more to ensure that the driver has a Mercedes. Nothing wrong with that either. They will pay someone to carry their luggage around and do the hotel check-in for them. Then there a lot of people between these two extremes.
Hostels are doing well so are 5-star hotels. When I fly or take the train, I notice that business class and first class are just as full as economy or second class. But I also know guys who are willing to take hard seats on long overnight trains (at my age I won't even take hard sleepers anymore).
When I land in Beijing I see a lot of private drivers waiting for their clients while I see many heading to the Airport Express or the shuttle buses.
So people should be able to come to a travel forum without being judged and lectured about doing it wrong and paying too much (in the reader's view) to get somewhere or do something.
A problem with forum is that we don't know the people that we are talking to.Sometimes they'll say a bit about their preference, but never enough. So, I have learned over time to stop trying to get people to change their mind based on MY preferences. It is best to just answer the question. It's ok to say, "en passant" that I would not do it this way. But we should still answer the question asked or not bother to waste bandwidth.
I have been to the Great Wall several times. I have used the bus that costs 12RMB (with the transportation card discount) and I have used drivers for 600RMB or so. Next time that I need to return with a friend, I'll most probably take a driver. But, hey, that's just ME.
So please answer questions and stop judging people people and infer that they are idiots because they do not travel like you.
Oh, and regarding the Tian'Anmen events, I have yet to meet a Chinese who does not know about it (although I am sure that there are some). It never crossed your mind that their answer meant, "I don't want to talk about it"? Talking politics with tourists is not the greatest idea and probably something I would teach guide not to do. No Chinese is proud of this and even Deng Xiao Ping later said that it was a bad decision. So, no point rubbing their face with it.

thursdaysd

@CCT - you seem to be the one judging. Peter has not said "you have to do it this way". He has said, "if you do it that way you are paying well over the odds for a probably inferior product". That is valuable advice, but the OP is certainly free to choose otherwise. HOWEVER, the OP will then do so with more complete information. I cannot think that more information is ever a BAD thing.

Plus, contrary to your apparent belief, people other than the OP will read these posts. It is not a waste of bandwidth (oh, please!) to provide information that they may need.

vipsha

> If you don't actually know much about Chinese history, art history, architecture, politics, etc. how do you know whether the guides were outstanding?
- Since the above remark was written in direct response to a quote, it assumes that the poster does not know much about these subjects - so yes, @thursdaysd, judgment is being passed.

> Those of us who have long experience of the shenanigans of organised tourism in China, and of what guides have to say (including in Mandarin) know that the education system teaches them falsehoods,
- So do many other education systems around the world. What is your reference point?

> and that if they're among the rare officially licensed guides they've been taught falsehoods to tell foreigners so as to represent history the way the Party wants it told. Exaggeration for the glory of China is the least of their problems.
- Is this fact, or a belief? Just because people don't talk about intensely painful, uncomfortable experiences in their history, they do not automatically all become dishonest. People can connect culturally and at a personal level with empathy, without discussing and debating what should have been taught in history books.

I went to school with people who left China soon after Tiananmen square; they rarely talked about it, and when they did make reference to the events it was very difficult for them.

temppeternh

> - Since the above remark was written in direct response to a quote, it assumes that the poster does not know much about these subjects - so yes, @thursdaysd, judgment is being passed.

I was quoting a post that now seems to have vanished for no reason. Since you've quoted exactly what was said in response, you should surely be able to see that it assumes nothing at all but asks a question, and one that hasn't been answered. It is not unreasonable to assume that someone well-informed wouldn't bother taking a guide, but the question has been asked, and remains: If you're not well-informed already, how can you tell if the guides were any good?

> - So do many other education systems around the world. What is your reference point?

I'm unable to understand the relevance the education systems of other parts of the world. If you're responding to what was said, could you please address the topic at hand, which is problems with guides in China? They might be worse in Istanbul or Addis Ababa, but that doesn't change how they are in Beijing, does it, or alter the question asked?

The Chinese education system teaches an entirely false account of Chinese history, and offers neither alternatives nor room for debate. Where Chinese guides are actually licensed (and that's a small number of them, although it's legally required) they have also graduated from tourism schools that have taught them the right things to say to foreigners. The tourism industry is part of the same system of control of information as the education system and the media, with single-minded messages about an authorised version of events, and no interest in truth at all. At best the guides' knowledge is entirely incomplete, and at worst entirely deceptive. They do manage to make themselves very pleasant nonetheless. It can, of course, be very profitable for them to do so. If being very pleasant is sufficient to classify them as excellent guides then excellent they are. But then most people would regard the provision of not only fulsome but accurate information as being fairly essential (as well as the avoidance of shopping 'opportunities' for their own profit, which is the norm).

>- Is this fact, or a belief?

Because it may not happen to have occurred to you, or not appeal to you, or because you don't know anything about the Chinese tourism industry and its regulation, that doesn't make it false, unfortunately. That's what they need to go through to be licensed.

> Just because people don't talk about intensely painful, uncomfortable experiences in their history, they do not automatically all become dishonest.

How is this relevant in any way? What do 'painful experiences' have to do with it? Did the majority of Chinese history happen during their lifetimes? Even in terms of contemporary events are these all connected with 'painful experiences'? What on earth are you on about?

> People can connect culturally and at a personal level with empathy, without discussing and debating what should have been taught in history books.

Of course they can. But most of us actually expect guides to know something about history, and to answer questions about modern life honestly, and not to mislead us.

> I went to school with people who left China soon after Tiananmen square

You're aware that Chinese history, even its modern history, is rather longer? And that 1989 was nearly 30 years ago? Not to mention that on a trip to the Great Wall 1989 is unlikely to be relevant. But information provided on its history, length, construction methods, architecture, and effectiveness are all going to be inaccurate or at best incomplete. The very example given earlier was about whether you can tell a turtle (which is what's *not* supporting a stele) and a 赑屃 (bixi) (which is). Could you explain the connection with 'painful experiences' or the events in Tian'an Men Sq. 30 years ago?

I'm afraid this is just more of the same, 'I did it this way, so this way is the best.' The very observations being made here suggest a lack of experience and a corresponding inability to judge whether a guide is being accurate or not. And that is, of course, the situation that almost all foreign visitors are in.

But unfortunately guides almost universally do not represent good value for money in China, and indeed almost always have their hands very deeply in your pocket. Even the Beijing city government recognises this, reporting a few years ago that only 40 out of 800 day trip agencies were legal, and bringing in regulations to prevent over 18,000 guides from accepting kick-backs--regulations that did not succeed.

Those considering taking day tours or hiring cars with guides need to know all this before making their decisions either way.

vipsha

Thanks! I hope buzymom3 got her answer and learnt her lesson.