I know you all most get so tired on hearing the itineraries and asking for help but here goes another plus some questions

We arrive at 3:00 PM on October 8th - is it feasible / easier to head for Kyoto that early evening and avoid staying in hotel in Tokyo only to leave next AM? If having to stay overnight is the Shinegawa better for that?

Some advisors push for two areas only for over nights - Tokyo and Kyoto?? Is this moving around too much - should there be more day trips from main place?

Any help is very appreciated!!

So far here's what I've got:

Day 1 - arrive 3 PM either overnight in Tokyo or head out for Kyoto
Days 2-3-4-5 (4 nights) in Kyoto - day trip to Nara
Day 6 - Hiroshima day trip or overnight there?
Day 7 - Miyajima
Day 8 - Osaka - Namba area for hotel?
Day 9 - Osaka
Day 10 - Takeyama
Day 11 - Takeyama-Kiso Valley day trip
Day 12 - Hakone or Izu Peninsiula
Day 13 - Hakone OR should it be Kanazawa for 2 nights instead???
Day 14 - Tokyo
Day 15 - Tokyo - day trip to Kamakura??
Day 16 - Tokyo - day trip to view Mt. Fiji??
Day 17 -
Day 18 -
Day 19 - 1/2 day

I'm left with 2 more nights/days and then fly out on the 26th PM 5:00

Thank you so much! Barb

Are you using a JR pass? I'm guessing yes, and if so how long in duration?

Have you figured out how to use Hyperdia? It's about to become your new best friend.

In response to your query re heading straight to Kyoto from Narita, yes, it's entirely feasible and it's what I would do. If using a JR Pass you're limited to non-nozomi shinkansen, but given your arrival time that shouldn't be a problem. Note that you can limit your Hyperdia searches to exclude flights and nozomi, and you can available train times. You'll have the option of transferring between the Narita Express and the Kyoto-bound train at either Tokyo station or Shinagawa station---Shinagawa preferable.

You can also catch a connecting flight (and there are discount deals for tourists), but I'm never quite as comfortable trying to make unconnected flights, even in Japan. Or you could fly into KIX instead of NRT, but that's probably not an option if you've already purchased your tickets.

Some general remarks...

Osaka? Do you have some particular interest in Osaka

I can't quite figure out what you mean by day trip to Hiroshima: day trip from where? In any case there's not much point in an overnight in Hiroshima if you can afford to overnight in Miyajima instead. Visit Hiroshima during the day and then take ferry over to the island. Take advantage of the quiet in the evening to stroll and then visit the sites the next day.

Are you considering Nikko?

I thought the Osaka area had been recommended?? Are you thinking skip it? Other responses made it sound that one needed to spend a night in Hiroshima? Is it feasible to do day trip from Kyoto then? I am already having trouble booking hotel in Kyoto - had to settle for the Hearton Hotel ?? so far is this a very bad choice if any one is familiar with it. Kyoto Royal Hotel and Spa was sold out - any other recommendations? Also the Hakone area wow $500!!!! Some are $300 but those are the ones you have to dine at the hotel and some say that is another $75 each!! Nikko do I hadn't considered BUT I have extra days - where would that come in at? I sincerely appreciate your input! Barb

Yes tickets had to be in and out of Tokyo (used some miles). Haven't begun looking for Miy. hotel yet - sounds like that will be worse than the Hakone area!! Yes planning on 14 rail pass. It took me 4 hours today trying to find the Kyoto hotel with availability!! Maybe October was a bad idea - I'm becoming discouraged already. Barb

No need to get discouraged, it will work out.

I ask "why Osaka?" because Osaka isn't so much about scenic areas and temples and museums but rather more about business. Its on the gritty side, frankly. More like Detroit than, say, San Francisco. Not that Detroit isn't a fine city with much to recommend it, it's just not the first place I'd send a first time visitor to the country. I actually liked Osaka, but I'm a bit odd in that respect. You can use Osaka as a base for travel in the area (including day trips to Kyoto), and lodging won't be as tight there.

Which search engines are you using for lodging in Kyoto? Try them all: Rakuten and Japanican are especially good for Japan. There are also hotels that only book through their own web sites: Toyoko Inn is a big chain with reliable properties. I just looked at Japanican for 10/8 through 10/13 and found the Citadines for USD 123 per night. New property, part of a chain of French hotels with kitchenettes in the rooms.

Hiroshima is certainly worth a visit, but it's not particularly special at night, whereas Miyajima is. On the other hand, lodging is mich more reasonable in Hiroshima. You've got lots of options, and there's no cause for worry. It will all work out.

Thanks - so Osaka is out - how would you revise the above itinerary as I have additional nights. Are you familiar with the Fujiya Hotel - VERY mixed reviews in the Hakone area. It was the only one that was reasonable - but none appear to have restaurants by them. Today I'm back to hotel search. Appreciate your help Barb

Your coming up against a bit of a road block due to your arrival date, which puts you right at the beginning of a weekend. Because you're thinking about popular vacation locations (like Hakone and Kyoto), you're competing with both foreign and Japanese tourists, and so it's harder to find rooms. It will be easier during the week.

So, one option might be to start your trip farther away. Somewhere up in your original itinerary you mention Kanazawa (though, strangely as an alternative to the Izu peninsula, which seems odd because they are on opposite sides of the country). Anyway, Kanazawa is lovely: geisha and samurai quarters to visit, lovely park (Kenrokuen), cool central market. Lots of crafts in the area, and you can actually sign up for classes to make things yourself. Kanazawa also has a very good Goodwill Guides service. These are free local guides who will show you around in return for some friendly conversation in English. You pay for their food/drink if they accompany you to a restaurant, and you also pay their admission to museums (though my guide either got a discount or free admission in some instances; one place they even gave her a small bottle of sake as a New Year's gift and she gave it to me because she doesn't drink). Info here: http://www.kanazawa-tourism.com/

You can catch the Narita Express (N'Ex) as late as 6:48 PM and arrive just after midnight (and you'll surely make it earlier than that unless your plane is delayed) and get to Kanazawa at midnight (look this up on Hyperdia yourself so that you get used to using that search engine). You can take a room at Dormy Inn Kanazawa (for which I can personally vouch) which is located just around the corner from the train station. I've just looked it up on Japanican and there's availability, and it's right at USD 100 for a twin-bedded room (less for a double---twin bedded rooms are larger).

Since this is your first stop, I'd suggest staying at least three nights. There's a jitney-type tourist bus that leaves from in front of the train station that makes a loop of any of the areas that you'd care to visit. You can buy a day pass for the bus.

You can also buy tickets for the long distance bus to take you onwards to Takayama. This bus takes you through some very cool mountainous areas, and were I you I'd stop for a night in Shirakawa-go and stay at a minshuku. A minshuku is normally a non-fancy bed and breakfast, but in Shirakawa-go they are in the old original farmhouses, and dinner is included in the price (as there's really no other food options at night). The easiest way to arrange your lodging in Shirakawa-go will be though japaneseguesthouses.com. They are extremely helpful---just submit your request via their web site and they'll get back to you, suggesting alternatives if your first pick isn't available. There's also a small hotel in Shirakawa-go, and there are more remote areas that you can access from Shirakawa-go that should still be accessible in October (before the big snows set in---this area is called Snow Country and they're not kidding).

I've never stayed overnight in Takayama, but there are lots of hotels and inns there. Again, you may find things a bit tighter if you're coming up on the weekend, but persistence will pay off.

From Takayama you can head to Kyoto, and if you've timed it right you'll arrive on a Monday, and lodging will be easier to find.

After Kyoto you can head to Hiroshima/Miyajima. Depend on budget constraints and room availability, you can stay in either Hiroshima or Miyajima. A budget option in Miyajima is Kinsui Villas. I stayed there and can vouch for it---very nice property, right across the street from the ferry landing, and the food was excellent.

You can break your journey back to Tokyo with a visit to Himeji. I think that at least some of the exterior of the castle is presently under scaffolding, but it's still pretty darn cool and an excellent visit, as you get to go all the way up inside. Note that you'll be doing this in stocking feet and climbing steep stairs and even some ladders. They provide slippers, but I find it too difficult to use them on ladders, etc., so you might want to bring an extra pair of socks.

In Tokyo you'll find that lodging is much, much cheaper: it's not difficult to find perfectly reasonably rooms for around USD 100-150. The quality of budget lodging in Japan is much higher than it is in the US and Europe: it's always clean, internet (cable, not wifi) is free, they provide you with PJs, toothbrush/toothpaste, etc. Self-service aundry facilities are routinely available and very inexpensive.

From Tokyo you can do day trips to Hakone, Nikko, and Kamakura, alternating with the many, many things to see and do in Tokyo. If you'd like to do an overnight or two in Hakone or Nikko you can look into that, just think about a weekday instead of a weekend.

Teresa, Thanks SO MUCH for all your time spent in reply to my itinerary. I'm gonna cancel hotels so far and start over - yours sounds very good. BUT midnight is a bit late for us to arrive - so another question would be a one night stand hotel near the airport and/or convenient to hopping on train next day to head out of Tokyo. With the different dates IF I can now get the Hotel Granvia in Kyoto would you recommend that?? In Toyko for the several days and doing side trips would you recommend two different locations? I promise to leave you alone soon! Sincerely, Barb

Have you figured out how to use Hyperdia yet? Do so, now. And no need to cancel hotels until you've got new lodging booked.

The midnight arrival in Kanazawa is the worst case scenario, meaning that you didn't manage to catch the train from Narita airport until 6:48 PM (which is the latest you can depart Narita and still get to Kanazawa without taking a sleeper train).

But if you'd like to stop en route it's easiest to do so at one of the places you'd already be changing trains, so if you look at possible itineraries on Hyperdia you'll see that changes include Tokyo station, Shinagawa (which is still in Tokyo, just farther along the shinkansen route), and Maibara if you're taking the route that initially heads south. If you take the route than initially heads north then there's a stop at Echigoyuzawa. The reason that you get to Kanazawa by initially heading either north or south is that Kanazawa is separated from Tokyo by the Japanese Alps, so trains have to go around them.

Tokyo station is Tokyo, so a big busy station with lots of lodging in the area. Shinagawa is still Tokyo but a bit more manageable, and with plenty of hotels. Maibara isn't really much of a place, just a convenient location to build a shinkansen hub; it's not far from Nagoya (another stop on the shinkansen, so no additional travel needed), where I spent the night on a similar itinerary to yours (my plane was scheduled to arrive too late for me to make it all the way to Kanazawa even with a midnight arrival) and Nagoya's got a nice castle to tour if you want to stretch your legs before your onward journey. Plenty of business accomadations in Nagoya.

Echigoyuzawa would be the coolest place to stop, as it's an onsen/ski resort town. You could even plan to stay there for another night and take advantage of the local museums and hiking and so forth. There's a very book called "Snow Country" that's set in this town and the town takes advantage of that background. But because it's not a business area the hotels are mostly resorts, some of them quite expensive. There are reasonble options, though, and many include dinner and breakfast. These meals tend to be very, very nice and you won't feel cheated (though you'll enjoy it more if you like Japanese food). Otowaya Ryokan is giving a rate of about USD 350 per night at Japanican included dinner and breakfast, and the pictures look lovely. Japanese Guesthouses may also be able to book you this area.

Japanese Guesthouses lists two properties at Echigoyuzawa:

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/d...wa/otowaya.htm (which is the one I mentioned at Japanican)

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/db/yuzawa/futaba.htm

Both look lovely.

Teresa, You've become my personal consultant. No I have not learned/check out the hyperdia yet - I thought I had to start somewhere so the itinerary became number one with the hotels being next as it seemed that all these areas would be doable via the train system.

I still am thinking we'd be more comfortable staying around the airport or station our first night and just blowing that off. This is my itinerary based on your suggestions and reading. Still gets me in Kyoto on the w/e though.

How does this sound:

10/8 Friday arrive and spend night around airport

10/9 Sat - take Narita Express to Kanazawa - 3 nights

10/12 Tues - Bus to Kayayama - 1 night

10/13 Train to Kyoto from which point I have to find out yet
Kyoto 5 nights - day trip to Nara, etc.

10/18 Monday - Kyoto to Hiroshima 2 nights - day excusion to Miyajima

10/20 ????? Commuter train to Okayama for the gardens and overnight ?????

then to Tokyo either on 10/20 or on 10/21

stopping in Himeji for the castle then on to Tokyo

Departure from Tokyo on 10/28 late afternoon

Day trips from Tokyo OR should we SPEND THE NIGHT in NIKKO??

How does this sound to all you experts?? Sounds like a lot of time in Tokyo (not big city people) but as recommended breaking that up with the day trips to Hokone, etc.

Once again I thank you for all your help/input

I'm happy to be of assistance, boberg, and I'm consequently going to have to insist that you start using Hyperdia. It is the key to understanding the Japanse rail system. Without knowing the times and distances involved you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage.

Narita Express, for instance, will take you from the airport to the Tokyo area only, and certainly not all the way to Kanazawa.

> 10/18 Monday - Kyoto to Hiroshima 2 nights - day excusion to Miyajima

I haven't read the full thread, but have you considered staying in Miyajima instead?

> 10/20 ????? Commuter train to Okayama for the gardens and overnight ?????

Or maybe overnight in Kurashiki instead?

> should we SPEND THE NIGHT in NIKKO??

Personally, I found it easier to appreciate Nikko and its lovely surroundings by spending a night there.

> Sounds like a lot of time in Tokyo (not big city people)

Then you might consider spending a night on Koyasan or adding to your time in Kyoto/Nara.

Enjoy!

Yes I was on Hyperdia (I don't know why I put Narita Express down in my itinerary when I typed it sorry). Apparently it takes about 5 hours to get to Kanazawa from Narita. The distances seemed ok - am I missing something? Does the itinerary itself/timing seem ok then with the corrections of the suggested stay in Miyajima and Kurashiki vs. my original idea.

The train schedules aren't on there for October - drop down only went thru Sept - do they change that much?

Thanks again, Barb

Yay, boberg! You're going to wonder how you ever got along before Hyperdia.

The schedules change very little---some trains operate with increased frequency during some holiday periods, but there's not usually too much change. Some trains may only operate on weekends or weekdays, so consider that when putting in a dummy date.

Yes, the trip to Kanazawa is a moderately long one, and that's why I'd consider doing it on your arrival day: you're not going to do anything else of substance, and the train is actually a pleasant environment: you can look out the window at scenery for the first few hours before it gets dark, you can sleep (everybody sleeps on trains in Japan---set an alarm if you're worried that you'll sleep through a train change), a nice young lady will pass through with a cart of food and beverages (at reasonably prices), and when you get to your destination you'll have started the re-set button on your body's jetlag correction mechanism.

In any case there's little to be gained by staying near the airport in Narita, as you're still going to have to get to Tokyo to catch onward trains. Just hop on the N'Ex (which is in the airport---it's ridiculously easy) and head to Shinagawa for the evening, and then you'll already be an hour into your journey when you wake up in the morning.

Kurashiki would be a great option, and a good place to overnight on your way back from Hiroshima/Miyajima (haven't personally been, but would like to). Note that there are two train stations: Shin-Kurashiki (where the shinkansen will stop) and just plain old Kurashiki. Easy rail connection between them.

Check it out here:

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e5750.html

The bus trip that you mention for 10/12, that's actually to Takayama (not Kayayama), correct? Are you planning on stopping at Shirakawa-go? It's scenic, but it's not a short ride, so if you want you can build in either an overnight or a mid-day stop there,. And originally you'd mentioned spending more than one night in Takayama.

Your JR Pass gives you two weeks of travel---no point in returning to Tokyo until you've burned it up, and by my calculations that's returning to Tokyo on 8/22.

Either a day trip or an overnight in Nikko would be fine. Like any area that attracts a lot of day trippers, it will be calmer at night. If you're flight out on 10/28 leaves late enough in the day you could even spend your last night in Nikko and then travel to Narita after check-out. Again, check the Hyperdia for timing of trains.

Teresa, It is such an amazing thing you do spending your time helping us "lost souls"!!!! So it's sounding like you think I'm doing ok and can begin once again the hotel search??!!! Barb

ThereseShirakawa-go - building in either mid=day or overnight there - so the route apparently looks like it's Kanazawa - Shirakawa-go (one night possibly) then to Takayama - IF I activate our rail passes on 10/8th - they would expire on 10/21 would they not or do they go from time of activiation as well as day - i.e. not getting it until late afternoon? Barb

There are lots of Fodorites who spend time helping others with their itineraries, so I'm hardly unique in that respect. We tend to be people who like to plan and like the destination, so we get to experience the trip vicariously. You can thank us all by posting a trip report when you return.

As for your itinerary, it sounds like you're pretty close. Were I you I'd sit down and think through each day. Consider how much of that day you've devoted to traveling if it's a travel day, and whether you'll have either have to get up unpleasantly early or arrive at the day's final destination inconveniently late in order to make it work, as too many of those days are going to make you very tired. Once you're satisfied that it's workable I'd then start looking for hotels.

Oh, and what's your luggage situation?

I'll add a recommendation for Kurashiki. I lived there for a year while on the JET program in 1989-1990. Its one of the most charming towns in Japan. There are numerous small hotels within walking distance from Kurashiki station, not shin Kurashiki. Very tourist friendly, lots of locals speak English.