mrwunrfl, you are wonderful! I really appreciate the time you take to play with the itinerary and the options.

I�m almost there and now it�s a question of where to allocate the days. And I�m pretty happy with it now. It needs a few tweaks but I think it�s very close.

Things I�m considering in the following itinerary, as we like a good balance of smaller places with larger cities.

1) Matsumoto 2 or 3 days? I like the idea of a day trip to Narai, possibly visit Kamikochi from here (or from either the onsen towns or Takayama.
2) Takayama - 4 nights? I know many people think it�s worth no more than 3 nights, but we love small cities and we can do several day trips from here. If we visit Kamikochi on the second day at Okuhida, we�ll arrive in Takayama late in the day.
3) Kanazawa - I initially had 3 nights here but it�s a big city and not at all sure I want to stay that long. I�m considering that 2 days be enough for the main garden, modern art museum and the market? While these are nice, the city doesn�t look as appealing as other places.
4) Koyasan - 1 night. With additional stop added in Kayotei ryokan, not sure I want an extra stop. But it�s doable with the direct bus from Kyoto. If we do go (and not sure we will now), I�ll probably break the stay up into 2 separate visits of 4 nights and 2 nights. 1 night would be enough as the bus leaves in the morning and returns in the later afternoon, about 2 hrs and 40 mins. Still, this stop will likely be eliminated as we now have a full itinerary.
5) Just discovered Kayotei ryokan by reading earlier planning threads. It looks lovely, very traditional, and fits nicely between Kanazawa and Kyoto.
6) Eliminating Nara as a stop. Itinerary #19 (you can see how many variations I�ve come up with!)

Tokyo-6
Matsumoto-3(2)
Okuhida/Kamikochi -2
Takayama- 4/3
Kanazawa- 2/3
Kayotei ryokan - 2
Kyoto-4
(Koyasan-1)
Kyoto-2

I really think I�m almost there.

Oh, dear. Never mind kayotei. Looks beautiful but my eyes deceived me and the rates are far behind my pocketbook.

progol, In Kanazawa we stayed at the Nikko and had a very good experience there.

Thanks, HappyTrvlr, that�s good to know.

0) you mentioned big cities, that first and longest stop is six nights in the largest megalopolis in the world
1) you can avoid backtracking by visiting Kamikochi on the way to okuhida. a youtube popped up about matsumoto and the people drove to okuhida. fall colors, probably early/mid-october, but at the top of the shinhotaka ropeway it was fogged in and snow. but coming down the ropeway had scenic views.
3) Kanazawa is a manageable size, really, less then 500,000 people. i think it gets referred to as little Kyoto, kyoto is three times larger. you would be there during crab season. there is a tourist loop bus. one full day is a minimum but two is better.
4) if you did that you could leave your stuff in Kyoto. i would hope that bus makes a stop at the ropeway up Koyasan and take it one way, at least
5) there are traditional ryokans at every one of your stops and along the way, and that don't cost 98000 yen per night for two. likely to find one in okuhida. there are a couple in takayama

I forgot to mention Gero Onsen. Gero is a famous onsen town about 50 min south of Takayama.

Progol, We had about a week in Tokyo, which was pretty hard to get a handle on in such a short time. I can't say I fell in love with the city but maybe that's cause I did not get to know it well enough. Due to the ageing issue, with concurrent minor ailments, we tried to keep the trip (2019) as simple as possible, with not too many different destinations. II had been to Hiroshima, and to Kyushu in the past, many years ago, and thought both were essential, in different ways, of course. But this trip was the first to Asia for my partner and I really wanted to keep it manageable. So we had: Tokyo (hotel near Tokyo Station..very happy with location, and with hotel); Kanazawa (Nikko); and then, since I really wanted to experience an onsen ryokan and the partner was squeamish about one with shared bathing, we chose Kayotei. It was quite an experience, one I will never forget, but as you said, the price was crazy high, I guess mainly due to the private in-room baths (actually on the terrace facing woodlands). Sleeping on the tatami mats was fabulous since I don't remember having done that in earlier trips. Well, fabulous until you needed to use the facilities during the night when the creakiness in both of us led to much groaning and much laughter from yours truly!! And not to mention the included dinner, seated on the floor, and the fish-centric breakfast. I am not sure partner would be all that eager to repeat the experience, and that is not even considering the price! (after that we spent about a week in Kyoto)

If you do change your mind and decide to take the plunge and visit Kayotei, I am here and delighted to recount further details.

One amusing thing happened when we alighted from the train in the station nearest Kayotei. We got off the train, dragging our bags; mine, of course was already heavy with ceramics and various foodstuffs purchased in Tokyo, not to mention the usual overpacking that I never seem to be able to overcome.
We alighted from the train and an elderly gentleman approached and took both our heavy bags and scampered along the platform, down the steps, and out the station exit. We assumed that this was the driver sent by Kayotei to collect us and bring us to the ryokan. But no, this man was a fellow passenger who evidently took pity on the clueless foreigners and thought to help us tote each and every one of our bags! He led us to the car pick-up area, set the bags down, bowed, and went on his way, leaving us with yet another memory of the kindness we so often encountered during our visit to Japan.

Thanks so much, mrwunrfl, for the additional ideas about Kamikochi. It’s definitely a place we will include but exactly where we’ll do it is still unclear, as I’m still trying to work out how to allocate the days. I’m planning to include the ropeway, too, as it looks like there are fabulous views and a dramatic way of experiencing the mountains. Thanks, too, for the info on Kanazawa - we will stay there for at least 3 nights, I think.

I don’t know if the Koyasan bus stops below the ropeway, but the convenience of the nonstop bus from Kyoto makes that trip doable for us. I wouldn’t do it otherwise.

ekscrunchy, much as I’d love to include Kayotei, I’m afraid it is just more than we are willing to spend. It looks great and I love its relationship to the crafts and other creative people in the area - between the location and the connection to crafts, I was sold. Except I must’ve seen what I wanted to see because when I checked the rates the first and second time, I saw very different prices! And thought, how affordable! Only later, when I looked again, did I realize I made a big error! Your description sounds wonderful, though, and, as people with aging/achey bodies, I’m also wondering about the ryokan experience! But of course, we do have to try it!

Okay, I think this is the basic plan, though I�m still toying with how best to allocate the days�

Tokyo-6
Matsumoto-3
Okuhida/Kamikochi -2
Takayama- 4
Kanazawa- 4
Kyoto-4/5
Koyasan-1
Kyoto-1/2

It looks like there�s enough to see and do in Kanazawa to warrant 4 days. It might be possible to do a day trip through the Noto Peninsula if we feel the need to get out of the city here. As I�ve said before, we also like small towns and cities, so, right now, I like the idea of 3 nights in Matsumoto and 4 nights in Takayama, but all of these are flexible. I�m also undecided whether to break Kyoto up into 4 nights/2 nights or 5/1, but I do think we�ll keep Koyasan now.

Nara or Koyasan? To keep it simple, I�m planning Nara as a day trip but not an overnight. But if I change the allocation of days, then I would consider a 2-night stay in Nara, but I�d probably eliminate Koyasan.

A four-night stay in Kanazawa would be 5 days.
Takayama to Kanazawa (via Toyama) is 6970, Hida L'ex to Hokuriku shinkansen on Day 1
Kanazawa to Kyoto is 7020, Thunderbird L'Ex on Day 5
That is 13,990 JPY total vs 14,260 for this pass
Takayama-Hokuriku Area Tourist Pass (japan-guide.com)

Paying the extra 270 gets a day trip from Kanazawa.
Shirakawago 1hr 31 min would be 2,600 each way
Kaga Onsen 25 min would be 2,060 each way

Kaga Onsen is on my wish list. The pass doesn't include Noto.

Interesting that this pass includes travel on both JR Cental and JR West. Nagoya to Inotani, which is between Takayama and Toyama, is JR Central. With other passes (JR West ones, I guess) you would pay for Takayama to Inotani and then use the pass from there on to Toyama.

Bus from Takayama to Shirakawago to Kanazawa on Day 1 would cost less than the above train route, so the pass would not be worthwhile if you chose that route, I think. You would still have 3 full days in Kanazawa and could do a day trip to Kaga Onsen.

>> Kyoto-1/2

Returning to Kyoto for 1 night doesn't seem worthwhile to me. I would probably go to Osaka for the night before a flight from Itami. Get some Osaka-style okonomiyaki. Or Nara would be an option.

(my other post went to the moderators and should appear above)

Again, it�s about convenience. It would make sense to go to Osaka but the return bus from Koyasan is direct to Kyoto. That�s why I�d consider going back to Kyoto rather than Osaka. Nara to Itami doesn�t seem to have a direct shuttle. I prefer to end in Kyoto or Osaka but I am still trying to avoid adding yet another large city to our trip, even if it�s only for a night or 2.

Me, too. I'm using both Navitime and Jorudan and starting to get used to them. At the moment, I'm mostly using them to price rides and figure out whether a JR pass makes sense. In our case, it's looking like "probably not." progol, that is the next fun part of planning!

JapanBusOnline has been useful for researching some bus routes/schedules (and potentially making advance reservations). There is a 2X daily direct bus from Matsumoto to Kamikochi (~1:40) that I have my eye on, but it is too early to book.

I thought about posting to a new thread about Navitime, Jourdan.

I went to the Alpico website and the reservaton link there went to Japan Bus Online. If you want to post your itin (just the stops, lengths of stay, travel days - first day being a travel day to the stop) i can help. Kind of a hobby of mine. Well, it was with hyperdia.

progol doesn't need a 7-day JR Pass, obviously, because of the lengths of stay. There is no way a 14-day pass would be worth it. Just the one regional rail/bus pass I linked above fit their itin, came close to break even. Found that after reviewing the rail passes described on japan-guide.

I think I mentioned a bus pass that might save a bit and fit their time in the Alps.

There might be a bus pass for the koyasan/itami travel, if that is kept in the itin. The Granvia Hotel in Kyoto station for one night would make those two bus rides super easy to connect.

found a Hirayu Onsent tourism page. good map. links to lodging. there is an english page
Stay｜Hirayu Onsen Tourism Association Hirayu Onsen Ryokan Cooperative Association [Official Website]

One place was mentioned upthread and it looks like it can be booked now through Oct 31.
【Official】Okuhida Onsenkyo Hirayu Takumi no Yado Miyama Sakuraan Reservation / Okuhida Hirayu Onsen Hotel Accommodation Information Hotel Spa - HOTESPA.net

Thanks, ms_go and mrwunrfl!

ms_go, the additional site for transportation is helpful. I've been using Google maps a lot and have learned to adjust the time, but otherwise, it seems pretty good.

mrwunrfl, thanks for all the links. I love the map centered on Hirayu Onsen! I'm inclined to stay in one of the nicer ryokans in one of the towns near the ropeway, Yarimikan (https://www.yarimikan.com/en.php). While a splurge for us, it's an acceptable splurge, and looks quite nice.

One thought - given that we're planning to stay in an Okuhida onsen and will take the ropeway, do you think we still should go to Kamikochi? It looks like there are enough walks in the area that we can have the experience of being in nature. We would only be going on an easy hike in Kamikochi, not one requiring serious walking!

I have also used rome2rio. I typed in yarimikan and rome2rio found it. I think. It says 27 min by bus every 2 hours to Hirayu Onsen. I find that a bit hard to believe, That is, am not sure the rome2rio location the same place as at your link

About that map: it shows the Hirayu BT.. It also shows the Ankandana Parking Lot near the top. The Alpico website says that it is a 10-min bus ride between the two. I mention this because it gives some scale to the map in terms of travel times.

Yarimikan is not on that HO tourist map. See the map, top right, the "To Abotoge"? I think Yarimikan is up that road. I think Yarmikan is in/near Shinhotaka Onsen (village). Google maps seems to confirm that and says it is a 27 min bus ride and 3 min walk from H.O.

Pretty sure Kamikochi is 25 minutes by bus from the Hirayu Onsen BT.

Yarmikan website access info (below) confused me at first. I think it is giving two travel times: 20 min from Yarimikan to the BT and another 20 min from there to Kamikochi. My guess is that would be by taxi (if taxis can actually travel to Kamikochi) to be only a 40 min trip.

Kamikochi
About 20 minutes to the bus transfer parking lot.（About 20 minutes to “Hirayu Bus Terminal”）
It is open from late April to November 15.
Access by regular vehicles is restricted to protect the natural environment.

>> do you think we still should go to Kamikochi?
(hmm, how to answer that direct question)

What I think you should not do is visit Kamikochi as a day trip from Matsumoto. I have more/less said that before. Your point about getting enough nature in Okuhida helps make that case. Stopping on the way or visiting Kamikochi from Okuhida makes more sense to me, given the travel times and backtracking involved with the day trip.

Kamikochi is really pretty. There is an easy walking loop and I would not be surprised to learn it was wheelchair accessible (based on what I remember there might have been a bit off to the left that wasn't flat, but none of it would be a "hike"). You could probably see it on youtube. There was a visitors center and you cross the nice bridge and there were a few restaurants and lodgings (and I stopped for a soak in a tiny bath). It was an enjoyable visit for a few hours and I would have liked to spend the night, but was ok not doing that.

Kamikochi certainly is optional for you. It could be a last-minute (or next to last-minute) decision.

I�ve looked at the Nohi bus schedules and I believe the bus from Hirayu onsen to the stop near the ryokan is no more than 25 minutes. It�s also very near the ropeway.

I like the map of HO because it shows so many things of interest and gives a nice feeling of the area. I did realize that the Yarimikan ryokan was not on the map!

That�s my feeling, too. I think we can decide at the time whether or not it�s �worth� it. I think we can easily do it as a day trip from Okuhida. It�s something that we�ll have as an option.

That's the place. Took me a while to figure it out. Nakaokogen-guchi bus stop, I think. From Takayama/Hirayu Onsen to Shinhotaka Ropeway | 濃飛バス公式サイト (nouhibus.co.jp)

def more often than 2 hours. Maybe the Alpico bus goes up there every two hours (from Kamikochi)