Patty

Patrick,<BR>If you have only a few tickets to purchase and are concerned about finding an agency or the language barrier, just buy them at your hotel. You will pay more but if you aren't traveling around extensively, it's certainly convenient and the extra cost won't matter that much in the overall scheme of things. You will probably still pay less than a tour and have the freedom of traveling independently.

Patrick

Thanks for the detailed descriptions, Peter, and for your comments too, Patty. (I'm new to the Asia board but an old hand at the US and Europe boards, where I'm often known for my long-winded and detailed answers -- but Peter, you put me to shame!!!)<BR><BR>Actually another sort of option has occurred to me. Assuming that we will often be hiring a local guide, is it asking too much to have him go with me to an agency and assist in buying the tickets for our next leg of the journey?<BR><BR>I'm not a backpacker traveler. Nor do I like to throw money away. So making sure I've gotten the absolute lowest price isn't really a problem for me. I would never mind paying $4 or $10 for the convenience of my hotel doing train or plane tickets that are going to cost over $100, for example. And I do imagine I will pretty much plan the trip before I go and prebook most or all of my hotels. I tend to like pretty special hotels and know that I want the Hyatt in Shanghai, and have even noticed a Senior discount (which my partner qualifies us for) of only $80 a night at the Hyatt in Yangshou. And I probably won't hesitate to book the Shangrila in Bangkok at about $150 a night. Obviously there are many places I could stay cheaper, but this seems like such a good deal for such a high level hotel -- compared to the US or Europe, I really don't mind.<BR><BR>I'm leaning more and more towards independent travel, partially because although I like OAT and their small (less than 16 groups) and their detailed and active itinerary, they do not make it very possible to do two or more of their tours back to back -- without charging me for airfares for both, even when I'm staying in Asia for the second tour. Anyway, I have free business class tickets available via Japan Air Lines or Cathay Pacific (AA partners). I'm leaning toward Japan Airlines, because I can do an extra stop over in Tokyo and/or Osaka coming AND going, which I'd like to do. And I can fly into Beijing and out of Bangkok (or various other options)-- so I get a lot for my free trip in Business Class. I'm now thinking of about 2 months or more total travel, which will require quite a few plane and/or train trips along the way. So you'll be seeing a lot of me here!

PeterN_H

I'm sorry, item two in the lengthy list above should have said that it's not a good idea to book travel services in China via Web sites, as I hope the remainder of the remarks go on to demonstrate.<BR><BR>Private guides are also not a good idea--do a search here for lengthy discussions about difficulties with shopping, lack of local knowledge, etc. On ticketing the brief answer is that the guide will probably volunteer to help, and know &quot;the best place&quot;. Inserting themselves between you and the Chinese side in all transactions is the principal source of their income, taking kick-backs from sights, restaurants, hotels, and agents to point you their way. You, of course, pay. Never accept their opinion on &quot;the right price&quot; for anything. In general, some decent background reading, a map, and a taxi are a far better way to get around than employing any guide, who only tends to muddy the waters. But please look for other more comprehensive posts on this topic.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Patty

Trying to get a local guide to assist with buying your tickets may not get you any better of a price than thru your hotel. The guide will most likely steer you toward an agency where they have business or personal connections and can receive a kickback. For the same reason, it's also seldomly advantageous to have your guide barter for you with a shopkeeper or at a market. Kickbacks are pretty much a way of life in China. Even the people you encounter who ask you if you want to step inside their shop or dine at their restaurant, aren't necessarily affiliated with the businesses themselves. Most likely they are 'independent agents' who receive a kickback from the shop/restaurant owner for bringing in customers and may get a flat fee or percentage of what you spend. <BR><BR>On another note, I try to stay at Hyatt wherever I can, and I'm pretty sure there isn't one in Yangshou.

Elainee

My husband and I have travel quite a lot in South America, Europe, and even several times to Thailand..never with a tour. But for China we did take a tour and were very glad we did. Yes, its easy to fly to Beijing and stay in a good hotel and have them help arrange whatever you may need there, but...we noticed that very few Western solo tourists took flights with us. So many people travel in groups that the airlines seem to be set up to handle the groups rather than foreign visitors. For example, we did not travel on the group visa since we went before the tour and stayed longer, so we were passed through visa inspection after our group and sometimes after all the other groups and the Chinese passangers. China is a big country it was efficient to have the tour do the organizing. Also, if you want to take a Yantze River cruise,it is hard to arrange without being part of a tour. On our boat (Victoria lines) there were only 4 people who were not part of a tour. These four were Chinese who had left the country as children and were back visiting their families. They complained about how hard it was to make arrangements for some of the things they wanted to do. If you live nearby and have the luxury of several trips and flexible time, go solo, but to do &quot;tourist stuff&quot; with limited time..a tour worked for us. We also met a US couple who had been invited to Bejing to give a paper at a conference..He had been to China 10 times, but they were not able to book a river cruise and get plane tickets for 2 places they wanted to go. We went with Smartours..very good, very efficient, extremely well priced, good hotels (we usually stay a little more upscale on our own), and when planes were delayed they knew where and what would be a good use of our time. But, yes, they did take us shopping more than I cared to do, so we twice took a cab to something we wanted to do with the group guide telling the driver where to go, to wait for us, and which hotel we were staying in. The hotels do give direction cards, but it was nice to have the guide make sure the driver knew what we wanted.

Patty

I'd like to say that as a non-group traveler, I've never experienced any delays or any order of preference for processing travelers thru immigration (if that was what was meant by 'visa inspection'). I would also apply the same statement to airport check-in, security checks, etc. <BR><BR>For the Yangtze cruises, you can run into some difficulty with the lines that market primarily toward western travelers especially in the height of season as my parents found out last year. It seems that the tour operators block most of the cabin space on these lines.<BR><BR>I've never encountered difficulty obtaining plane tickets and domestic flights are rarely full as it is priced out of the range of what is affordable to most ordinary Chinese.

Patrick

Duh, can you guess I'm not very adept yet at these Chinese names? Sorry, Patty, I meant Hangzhou, not Yangzhou. And to top it, I guess it was another Shangrila, not a Hyatt where I found that rate.