zverybestfamily

We are planning a trip to China for 18 nights leaving mid August 2009, I'm not sure that August is the best time to travel but this is the only time we can go. Our boys will be 14 and 17 when we travel. We are flying into SHANGHAI and out of BEIJING and are planning to spend some time in Hong Kong. We would love any suggestions on places, markets or activities not to miss. I am also thinking we will go to Xian and Yangshuo.

My younger son is a little foodie and can't wait for the dumplings and wants to eat through china and my older one is a very picky eater and does not eat any pork or fish.

Both boys love the theatre and music.

Thanks for any input. I am so excited to plan a really fun family trip!

Shanghainese

If your flying into/out of cities cannot change, then you need to get a multi-entry visa as into Shanghai and into Hong Kong count as 2 entries.

Is it safe to say the 18 nights are all in China and do not include flight time? Let's do an itinerary first.

Shanghai -- Hong Kong -- Yangshuo -- Xian -- Beijing.

Regarding how long at each location, I'll start with Shanghai and you can try the rest. You'll probably arrive late afternoon, give it 4 nights/3 days including a trip to a watertown, an evening for an acrobat show and another for a night cruise on the river. The gardens in Suzhou may not be of interest to your boys.

PeterN_H

I must admit I find such a large, open-ended request a bit hard to tackle. Usually doing a bit of reading and then asking more specific questions here will get you a larger number of helpful responses.

So as with the posting above, I'll comment on one angle: On the food front, if you want to get an idea of just how vast your range of choices of Chinese foods will be, 90% of which which will be unknown to you (including dozens of varieties of 'dumplings'), as well as how different in reality Chinese food is from most of what is given that label and served at home, obtain a copy of 'Beijing Eats' by Eileen Wen Mooney, a heavily illustrated guide that introduces all the major and most minor schools of Chinese cooking and their most famous dishes, as well as extensive dish recommendations and restaurant reviews for Beijing.

http://www.immersionguides.com/products/21/Beijing-Eats

NB: I wouldn't recommend any of this company's other guide titles, but Wen Mooney's book stands high above other practical review/food guides.

Knives and forks are not usually available when you eat in genuine restaurants not targeting foreigners, so get that chopstick practice in before you leave. And for the picky eater there are plenty of vegetable dishes (and vegetarian restaurants), as well as chicken, beef, lamb, seafood, and so on. And if all else fails in the big cities there are innumerable Western restaurants from the most grotesque of American fast food up to those with Michelin-starred chefs (and prices to match).

Peter N-H

zverybestfamily

Thank you both for responding.

Shanghainese - thank you for your suggestions.

Peter - Thanks for the tip on the Beijing Restaurant book; we are ordering it today. We are already pros at using chopsticks!

True, we asked a very broad and general question. We are using airline miles so we had no choice but to fly into Shanghai and return from Beijing. That being said, we thought our itinerary would look something like this:

Shanghai - Xi'an - Yanshuo/Guilin/Longji Titian Terraced Rice Fields - Hong Kong - Beijing

Other places we read about that sound interesting to us include: Lijiang, Hangzhou and perhaps Tibet? We read about the famous Sunday Market at Kashgar which sounds so exotic.

We want to spend 4 full days in Hong Kong so that leaves us just 13-1/2 days in China itself. Which of these places should we go to? We can travel both by train and by airplane. In each city, we can use taxis to get around. Keep in mind that we prefer places with less pollution and better air quality.

We're hoping to take a cooking class either in Beijing or in Yangshuo; rent bicycles in some of these places so we can take a leisurely bike ride in the country-side; see an acrobat show in Shanghai; perhaps an authentic Chinese Opera or other theater performance in Beijing or elsewhere.

If you have any other suggestions/comments or ideas for family traveling, we'd love to read them.

Thanks so much for your help! Hope this is a little more specific.

Best regards,

ZVeryBestFamily

laowai

If you guys are starting to think Tibet - remember for Tibet proper (a Lhasa trip) - you officially need to be part of a tour and need a Lhasa permit.
Whereas a lot of Tibet now lies in provinces such as Sichuan and Yunnan - no permits or tours needed here - and we have areas within a days driving of Chengdu and Kunming.
A Tibet trip within Sichuan - could also include Chengdu Pandas.
______________________________________
Chengdu Travel Blog - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/

Shanghainese

Have you checked a map of China? If you'd like to add the other places, you need a month, and unless you take a night train, traveling between locations take up 1/2 to almost a day's time.

Not sure of the reason behind your itinerary.

PeterN_H

This information (from someone who has an interest in promoting Sichuan travel) is slightly misleading.

While access to Tibet does indeed require a permit, you may enter Tibet as a single individual (or your own party) once you acquire one (which can take 4-5 days in Chengdu, so is best applied for from elsewhere in China where it tends to be quicker), and are not required to travel with other unknowns.

According to a reliable American source in Chengdu: The current air ticket cost is US$233/pp each way plus the Tibet Travel permit which is about US$80/pp and an English guide for your duration (about US$50/day/group).

But really this is all priced very unattractively and inconveniently, although despite the destruction of much of Lhasa's ancient housing the Potala Palace is one of the world's greatest monuments, and probably worth the effort in its own right. However, if future visits to China are anticipated it might be worth waiting in the hope that regulations are relaxed again.

Reportedly, if you take the train from Beijing (on what becomes within Tibet the highest railway in the world) other than the need to obtain the travel permit, most of these problems go away. But this is a 46.5-hour trip leaving Beijing at 9.30pm. You can certainly expect better air en route, not least since the train is sealed and supplied with oxygen if needed. What effect low oxygen environments have on asthmatics is something else you'd want to look into, surely.

You should not under any circumstances put 'Tibet' as a possible destination on your visa application, however, as this will merely result in you being refused a visa and pointed in the direction of a local officially approved Tibet tour operator.

The same is true of Xinjiang. While no permit is needed to travel there, writing any destination such as Kashgar on your application will result in refusal to give you a visa, unless your visit is part of a tour. However, once you enter China you can travel freely to Xinjiang, and just about anywhere else except Tibet (until you obtain the permit, which can be done in Beijing fairly swiftly).

As for Kashgar, you need to bear in mind that China is a little bigger than the USA if its own territorial claims are believed, and only just a little smaller if its claims only amount to what most would allow it. Thinking in Shanghai that you might go to Kashgar is a bit like thinking while in New York you might make a quick visit to Los Angeles. Even from Xi'an you're looking at a long flight with a change of planes in Urumqi.

Also, Kashgar market is Sunday only so your schedule must allow for this, and its exoticism has been perhaps somewhat reduced by the local Han authorities forcing it under cover: Still well worth a view, and still exotic, but not as traditional as it once was--you now need to head round the south side of the Taklamakan Desert for that, to smaller towns yet to be reached by rail, or quite so invaded by Han. Kashgar is undergoing Lhasa-isation.

Personally I'd skip Yangshuo, which has almost nothing to do with real China, in favour of other less well-trodden rural destinations. Guilin is an accursed place that's a tourism maelstrom and the epicentre of every scam ever invented in China.

Perhaps if you want something quite different from mainstream China and yet not quite so far flung as Kashgar (which is as far as it gets without being in Pakistan), you could consider Dunhuang possibly together with Turpan. Any general guide book will give you a description of each, but the caves just outside Dunhuang are one of China's principal sights, and there are assorted desert (and deserted) ancient cities outside Turpan (the second lowest place on earth after the Dead Sea), which still has a large Uighur population, and although lacking Kashgar's older warren will still give you an introduction to the Turkic/Islamic culture of western China. Again, the air is a little better out this way (although a stop in Lanzhou should be avoided), as there's relatively little industry and a lot of open space.

Peter N-H

laowai

Peter - thanks for backing my last post up with all that pertinent info - which does seem to come to same conclusion as mine - you need a permit to go to Lhasa and officially you need to be part of a tour group (it’s maybe possible to loophole the tour thing - but hardly a recommendation for a family group!!!!!)
I also find Lhasa a depressing place - and its rapidly sinking into the mire of tourist ghetto. The Potala is so popular that you often have to queue early morning to get your tickets for the next day (only so many are issued every day) - unless you buy them at an inflated price from a tout - or your tour group has booked then en-masse beforehand. Anyways all that commercialism takes a little bit away from the sense of spiritual pilgrimage to this great shrine.

This is why I advise that a far easier journey, from Chengdu, to a Tibetan region - would be to go to the Kham (Eastern Tibet that now lies within Sichuan) - no permits or tour needed here. Kanding the gateway to the Kham is only 6 hours drive from Chengdu.
For picture of this region look at my blog - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/

and blog articles such as - http://chengdutravel.blogspot.com/20...tan-faces.html

Hey Peter - if you ever travel down this way, give us a shout and I'll give you a tour - so you can see some of the stuff I'm/you're writing about

zverybestfamily

Hi Peter - Appreciate your suggestions. Although we know that China is extremely large, when we look on all the tourist maps, these cities & towns look pretty close to one another. Indeed, it can be very misleading. We had no idea that Chengdu or Tibet or Kashgar were so many hours away. We became interested in them after reading so many wonderful trip reviews. Also, we have been comparing different tour itineraries and that's how we got to the following cities:

Shanghai - Xi'an - Yanshuo/Guilin/Longji Titian Terraced Rice Fields - Hong Kong - Beijing

Everyone tells us that we need to see Shanghai because of it's energy, food and importance to the Chinese economy. Our choice of cities to fly into was limited because we are using our airline points. So we are flying into Shanghai & out from Beijing.

We don't want to miss the famous terra cotta statues in Xi'an. Should we spend one night there or two nights?

Re Yangshuo - we read so many wonderful trip reports about the countryside. We had been to China 17 years ago and spent a few days in Guilin. We took a day cruise on the Li River back then and we can't remember much else that was terribly compelling. In fact, the only souvenir of value that we brought home from Guilin was our son, Max! (He was actually conceived in Guilin and born in America!) We are not planning to spend any time in Guilin this trip, other than use its airport to fly to our next destination.

But we have so many plans for Yangshuo: bike riding; a rafting trip on the river; a cooking class that we heard about in Yangshuo; a spectacular night show on the water; hiking in the countryside; possibly a hot-air ballon ride above Yangshuo! We realize that many of these things are outdoors and we worry about the weather. We don't mind traveling in the rain (although we would prefer blue skies & sunshine) but now we're wondering what we would do if it is so rainy in August that we can't do these things at all?

The terraced rice fields are something we wanted to show our boys.

Since Guilin & Yangshuo were further south than these other places, we thought we would fly from Guilin to Hong Kong where we are eager to spend 4 or 5 days. We've been to HK before and love the shopping, the markets, the views, the food. One day we hope to take the high-speed ferry to Macao to walk around; another day we'll spend at Hong Kong Disney. We also want to explore some of the other islands like Lamma Island and Lantau Island and to stroll through some of the neighborhoods in Kowloon and in Central.

From HK we plan to fly to Beijing where we'll probably spend 3 or 4 days to see the usual tourist sights like the Great Wall, the Forbidden City, Tianamen Square, The Summer Palace and the Olympic Park. Rather than stay in a fancy hotel like the ones we have in New York, we thought we would try a boutique hotel in one of the hutong neighborhoods.

The only thing we knew about Chengdu in Sichuan Provence were the famous pandas. But if you feel that August is not the best time to visit, then we won't waste our time traveling there & back and can spend a little more time in some of the other cities. If this is the case, then we would have to save Chengdu and places like Tibet and Kashgar for another trip.

In addition to traveling by plane, we would like to take an overnight train while in China. Any suggestions?

Our travel plans as we laid out here are not yet set in stone. The only 2 things that we can not change are our flights to/from (Shanghai/Beijing). If anyone knows of another area in China where the weather in August is less rainy and less humid, then we are open to all suggestions.

And we’ll also be happy to take any restaurant and hotel recommendations, so long as they provide non-smoking rooms and have airconditioning!

Appreciate everyone’s help! Let us know if you’ll be in New York so we can return the favor and provide you with our expert advice about our wonderful city!

Cheers –

ZveryBestFamily

easytraveler

For train experience, since you are four, you can get an entire soft sleeper compartment to yourselves.

The Shanghai-Xian or Xian-Shanghai train ride is a bit of a stretch, but doable.

Of the cities that you are planning to visit, the best segment that I can see is the Xian-Beijing or Beijing-Xian overnight train. You might have to rearrange your cities in some other order of visit to get this train ride to work for you.

I think you're wise to cut out Tibet, Kashgar, and possibly even Chengdu. Otherwise you are trying to do too much. There should be at least a half day or one day, possibly during the middle portion of your trip, which is a "rest" day or "free" day. You need time to regroup.

Shanghainese is correct, you have to factor in a lot of travel time into the 18 days. Half a day to get from one place to another is not too much to budget. That's why the overnight trains are such a bonus.

BTW, if I wanted to visit something Tibetan, I would not go to Khams, Eastern Tibet. In fact, to get a true feeling for the Tibetan way of life, it would be better to plan a visit to Bhutan and Nepal. Tibet itself is such a tragedy at the moment.

Good luck on your planning!

rkkwan

If you don't mind the length of journey, you can take the direct train from Hong Kong to Beijing (which runs every other day, so maybe it won't fit your schedule). It takes 24 hours, 3pm to 3pm. Since flying HKG-PEK is not cheap, this is one train trip that can save you a little money. [But won't save you much if you fly from Shenzhen (SZX) instead.]

Shanghai to Xian on the non-stop Z92 overnighter is also fine, taking just over 13 hours. There are other overnight "T" trains too, just a little longer with a few stops.

The other trips are best flown.

Shanghainese

You are right to stick with the original locations you picked, the itinerary probably should be rearranged to the one I suggested.

Shanghai -- 4 nights
HK -- 4 nights
Yangshou -- 4 nights
Xian -- 2 nights
Beijing -- 4 nights

As ET commented, the best segment for train is overnight from Xian to Beijing. Not sure about the airfare from Shanghai to HK, if you fly Shanghai to Shenzhen to save some money, it takes time to cross the border from Shenzhen to HK.

The weather in August is very warm and humid all over China except the very north, but coming from NYC you can handle it. When it rains, you just have to adjust the plans and do something else. Don't cram too much into each day and raise everyone's expectations or you'll be exhausted.

What's your hotel budget? 2 rooms?

PeterN_H

> Shanghai - Xi'an - Yanshuo/Guilin/Longji Titian Terraced Rice Fields - Hong Kong - Beijing

Far too much city and touristy time and not enough China.

> Everyone tells us that we need to see Shanghai because of it's energy, food and importance to the Chinese economy.

Is importance to the Chinese economy really a factor that makes a destination attractive? Shouldn't you on this basis be spending time amongst the sweat shops around the Pearl River Delta? I'm just asking. There's energy a-plenty in HK (as you know), and while Shanghainese food is a pleasure a couple of nights there will give you plenty of experience of shengjian baozi, eel dishes, and fat oily noodles. In short, although air travel issues bring you in there, move on and have more time elsewhere. There's now coffee-table-book modern architecture galore in Beijing, most of it rather better than Pudong's (Shanghai's) forest of second rate towers (less one or two of note).

If you're visiting Hong Kong and Beijing and planning to spend a few days in each, then time in Shanghai, too, is a bit excessive. Most of China is down on the farm, not in the big cities, and Shanghai has relatively little to offer compared to Beijing or Hong Kong anyway. Given the rest of your interests, a day spent strolling down the Bund and around the former French quarter to de-tox from the flight should do it. But also you'll want to get out of that filthy air pretty quickly.

> We don't want to miss the famous terra cotta statues in Xi'an. Should we spend one night there or two nights?

There's much more to see in Xi'an than just the warriors, and surely one night just makes the whole trip pell-mell. Are you sure this is a holiday and not an assault course? Cut time out of Shanghai and add something in here (although note that the air in Xi'an is typically filthier than Beijing's).

> Re Yangshuo - we read so many wonderful trip reports about the countryside.

Yes. Well there's countryside, and then there's Yangshuo (glad at least one person who posts here can actually spell it). Millions of people think McDonald's is a pretty good restaurant chain, too, but some of us would differ.

But you've been before, so you know what you're getting into. Except that since it was 17 years ago, you don't. You won't recognise it. It is the Epcot Centre of Chinese villages. If you want bad pizza, hassling guides, and tourist hi-jinks galore (and this may very well be the case and is entirely up to you), then stay here. If you want real China like Yangshuo was 17 years ago, visit one of innumerable other choices.

> another day we'll spend at Hong Kong Disney.

I have to wonder why anyone would go all the way to China to see faux Americana. How about substituting with the Peak Tram, the old trams on Hong Kong Island, the Mid-Levels Escalator, and the Ngong Ping Skyride. These are all rides, and all rides that look at Hong Kong and can only be done there. Up to you, of course.

> In addition to traveling by plane, we would like to take an overnight train while in China. Any suggestions?

Xi'an last but one seems to make much more sense geographically, with an overnight train to Beijing. You can do Yangshuo to HK by luxury bus (although it takes the best part of a day). Or, indeed, Yangshuo to the Macau border.

How about Shanghai (since you land there), Shaoxing (day trips into countryside including a very attractive and relatively little visited water town), Quanzhou (if time, with further countryside side trips), Xiamen, Hong Kong, Yangshuo (if you must), Xi'an, Beijing. This route would give you an introduction to some relatively attractive mid-size towns with plenty to do, some countryside, and a well-preserved enclave of treaty port foreign housing. Luxury express buses connect all these east-coast towns on brand new highways by the way--we're talking in some cases three airline-style seats across the bus, with free mineral water, shoes off, full air-con, etc. You can also reach Shaoxing by daytime train (probably with a change in Hangzhou), and you can either bus or fly from Xiamen to HK.

Be warned, by the way, about non-smoking rooms. Only in the most recent of foreign-brand hotels will a non-smoking room actually be that. Chinese smoke in non-smoking rooms all the time, and in Chinese-run hotels staff are reluctant to enforce any non-smoking rule.

Peter N-H

Wotravel

I don't know if you have ever considered Dali, Lijiang in Yunan province or JiuZhaigou (via Chengdu by flight) in Sichuan province. You can fly there from shanghai,or Xian. and I would think those places are far more interesting than Yangshuo/Guilin.

the other things for you to consider: for things to do near Shanghai, you can easily add one day tour to a nearby water town,like Zhouzhuan (there are several of them), or considering staying in an old traditional house (modified) for one night there instead of in downtown shanghai. or Taking express train (CRH) to Hangzhou ( 1.5 hours, many trains during a day)staying there by the lake and cooling yourself in a tea house during the hot noon hours will be a fun thing to do than in Shanghai.

zverybestfamily

Thank you all for your suggestions!!! I now have new homework and I know that by August I will have planned the perfect family trip with the generous help of all of you.
Have a great day and I look forward to more suggestions and I will let you know what I come up with.

easytraveler

On train travel: try to factor in how well your family gets along in a small compartment together for 8, 10, 13, 16 hours.

The best would be overnight because part of that time will be spent sleeping.

Brings toilet paper!

Violet_1125

August is a ok season for travelling China.Some part of China still in raining Season.Beijing and Xi`an is hot but not humid.Shanghai and Yangshuo are a little bit humid and hot.
Flight from Guilin to HK is good since you want to spend some days in HK.
Don`d miss Shanghai Xiaolongbao in Shanghai.Besides duck,hot-pot also is delicious,if you like spicy food,a spicy hot-pot at Ghost street will be fine.some streed food is worth to try if your stomach can fit it.
Roujiaomo in Xi`an.Which is like a kind of sandwich.Yangroupaomo,this is a limb soup with Chinese bread.
Rice noodle in Guilin.

Violet_1125

one more suggestion,Chengde is another famous city in China,driving distance to there about 3-4 hours and not rainy and humid in Aug.you can hike Jinshanling to Simatai Great Wall on the way.

65775

Kay and I lived in China for a year and taught at the University in Dalian after my retirement, and we travelled all over the country. While each of the large cities has its own character, you might see more of "China" if you spent less time with the big towns. Beijing is a good place to see city life...and also see a great zoo, street markets, opera, the bustle of life generally, Ti'anammen square, forbidden city, etc.,and use as a central point to travel from..to Xi'An and the great wall. Use the trains as your hotel (soft sleepers) and also as a place to meet people. The Chinese people will be very friendly and anxious to try their English. LiJiang and Dali in the southwest and the "River Cities" in the mid-south are different and interesting. I recommend using a local guide/travel company to set up a view of the sights around Beijing. It is cheap and very efficient. It will be very hot in August with minimal air-conditioning, especially where you really need to go. Tibet is too time-consuming and expensive for the limits of your trip. A hidden jewel is the city of Dalian on the northeast coast. It is the number one travel destination for vacation for Chinese people..good air..wonderful zoo..cheap everything..seafood to die for.. and NOT TOURISTY with westerners. It costs about 35 USD for a sleeper (p/p) from Beijing and the station is in the middle of town. This is a safe and exciting trek for visitors. Former students are available for guides/translators for little or no cost. We expect to take our granddaughter there in August to see our old friends. Email me for any questions..you may phone if it will be helpful. rjack

65775

my email is [email protected]