In Beijing now - need urgent shopping help!
Dec 29th, 2003, 03:49 AM
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In Beijing now - need urgent shopping help!
We are now in Beijing (trip report to follow in Jan -- thanks so much to Peter for the FANTASTIC suggestion of the China World Hotel, which we are LOVING!!). We are hoping for some urgent input on shopping -- in specific on two things: the value of kingfisher blue antique hair ornaments from the Qing period and on contemporary Chinese art. We have looked at the former at Zhang's Textiles in the China World Mall, and the latter at the Creation Gallery (in the embassy district). Before purchasing, we are dying for input on anyone who might know or have purchased from either -- any sense of whether these two places have good quality and fair prices, any sense of whether bargaining is appropriate at either place, any sense of how much we should expect to lower the price. MANY MANY THANKS to any and all who reply in time for us to come home from this trip with lovely items (as well as the wonderful memories we are already making!).
Dec 29th, 2003, 07:31 AM
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> kingfisher blue antique hair ornaments
There aren't any antiques for sale in China.
Of course, this is a slight over-simplification, but for all but the expert dealing in a very limited specialist environment, it's true.
There's a long tradition of making jewellery incorporating kingfisher feathers (an art called diancui), but if you are simply referring to cloisonne, that's a relatively recent import, so any claims to great antiquity should be treated with even more scepticism than lesser claims (although your scepticism should be set to maximum anyway). The 'Qing period' was nearly 300 years (1644 to 1911), so isn't really that helpful as an expression of date.
There are no 'fair prices' for any of this--only what you can bargain for. Any shop 'in the embassy district' is aiming for gullible and deep-pocketed foreigners, and will have the same (fake) material as places away from foreigner-haunted areas, but for yet higher prices.
The price of a piece of contemporary art is what someone is willing to pay for it, and those who own and run galleries targeting foreigners by appearing to be the same as small galleries in Western countries know this, and are exploiting both Western expectations and the impossibility of putting an independently determinable value on new art. Be sure of two things: Even at this level, if it sells easily it will very likely be repainted and reproduced, and sold as unique all over again. Whatever price you pay, the piece is very unlikely indeed to be an investment. So the 'right' price is the one you are happy with (which is very likely one the gallery and artist will be very happy with indeed).
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
There aren't any antiques for sale in China.
Of course, this is a slight over-simplification, but for all but the expert dealing in a very limited specialist environment, it's true.
There's a long tradition of making jewellery incorporating kingfisher feathers (an art called diancui), but if you are simply referring to cloisonne, that's a relatively recent import, so any claims to great antiquity should be treated with even more scepticism than lesser claims (although your scepticism should be set to maximum anyway). The 'Qing period' was nearly 300 years (1644 to 1911), so isn't really that helpful as an expression of date.
There are no 'fair prices' for any of this--only what you can bargain for. Any shop 'in the embassy district' is aiming for gullible and deep-pocketed foreigners, and will have the same (fake) material as places away from foreigner-haunted areas, but for yet higher prices.
The price of a piece of contemporary art is what someone is willing to pay for it, and those who own and run galleries targeting foreigners by appearing to be the same as small galleries in Western countries know this, and are exploiting both Western expectations and the impossibility of putting an independently determinable value on new art. Be sure of two things: Even at this level, if it sells easily it will very likely be repainted and reproduced, and sold as unique all over again. Whatever price you pay, the piece is very unlikely indeed to be an investment. So the 'right' price is the one you are happy with (which is very likely one the gallery and artist will be very happy with indeed).
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:50 PM
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Very much agree with what Peter has said. The "modern" art that I've seen in Beijing is pretty much overpriced and not very good art, as far as Chinese art is concerned.
That said, try the US Embassy or try talking to the Commercial Officer. You MIGHT get some leads there. Or try to get in touch with someone in the ex-pat community.
For example, years ago, a good friend of mine who did a Ph.D. in Asian art accompanied her husband to his posting in Beijing (he represented a Western European nation). With luck, you might be able to find a US citizen who is residing in Beijing at the moment - for whatever reason - and who might offer you the expertise you need.
Good luck!
That said, try the US Embassy or try talking to the Commercial Officer. You MIGHT get some leads there. Or try to get in touch with someone in the ex-pat community.
For example, years ago, a good friend of mine who did a Ph.D. in Asian art accompanied her husband to his posting in Beijing (he represented a Western European nation). With luck, you might be able to find a US citizen who is residing in Beijing at the moment - for whatever reason - and who might offer you the expertise you need.
Good luck!
Dec 29th, 2003, 02:52 PM
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BTW, forgot to add, there were some "modern" art galleries in/near the China World Hotel. Those were the ones I was thinking of when saying that the art is not very good. Please don't get ripped off!
Dec 29th, 2003, 03:51 PM
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Is a site www.shopinshenzhen by a woman who is an expert. You could mail her or try to contact her as she obviously should know loads of China shopping tips. is also a book whose name I am forgetting about shopping tips for China.
Dec 29th, 2003, 05:06 PM
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Many thanks for the quick replies and for the cautions. We are not shopping people in general -- we just like to find one nice piece from each place we visit rather than loads of touristy things. The kingfisher blue feather hair ornaments seemed very unique (and the color very beautiful) which piqued our interest. Zhang's indicates that they are late Qing, so likely 20th century (if not fake, of course). Peter -- your caution is pretty strong -- would you go as far as to say that we should not believe that these pieces are old, and that we cannot trust the quality/veracity at any shop in Beijing? Are we better off not buying here? Is it no more/less wise to buy at a place in the China World Mall (we have not been attracted at all to anything in a market nor on the shopping streets)? Any additional comments would be most helpful. Thanks again to all for all the advice!
One last thing -- since we don't know any expats here, we cannot really seek shop tips from them. If anyone out there does have a particularly reputable/interesting shop outside the usual tourist areas to recommend, we'd be most grateful. Many thanks!
One last thing -- since we don't know any expats here, we cannot really seek shop tips from them. If anyone out there does have a particularly reputable/interesting shop outside the usual tourist areas to recommend, we'd be most grateful. Many thanks!
Dec 29th, 2003, 10:20 PM
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>would you go as far as to say that we should not believe that these pieces are old, and that we cannot trust the quality/veracity at any shop in Beijing?
That just about sums it up. These may be genuine (and at least if really kingfisher feather items are something genuinely Chinese and quite unusual--unusual things not well known by foreigners are perhaps a little less often faked), but are most likely not.
>Are we better off not buying here?
You are better not to pay serious money for anything (gems, antiques) whose value at home you have not already thoroughly researched, and with which you are not already expert.
> Is it no more/less wise to buy at a place in the China World Mall (we have not been attracted at all to anything in a market nor on the shopping streets)?
Buying at upmarket shops in malls and better hotels is no guarantee whatsoever of authenticity. It is a guarantee that you will pay more money than for the same item seen elsewhere (whether fake or not).
Set aside any worries about antiquity for a moment, and ask yourself if you like the item enough just for what it is to pay the price asked. For some, the whole wearisome question of authenticity is part of the story of the piece, and adds to its value as a memento of the trip. Making fakes and duplicates has a long and glorious history in China, after all. Shortly after regular trade with foreigners began in south China several centuries ago, the southern Chinese began manufacturing fake Western items for sale to northern Chinese.
Unfortunately, by going back to see the piece a second time you've ruined much chance of any serious bargaining, unless you are very skilful indeed. If you haven't already got the price well down from whatever was first asked, then I really wouldn't consider this. Mark-ups for foreigners can be many multiples of the price which would actually be acceptable. But if you think it will knaw at you that you didn't buy it, then buy it. It's certainly a much better thing to buy than fake pearls, poor cloissone, fake 'Song' celadon bowls, fake Mao memorabilia, etc.
> One last thing -- since we don't know any expats here, we cannot really seek shop tips from them.
Having been an expat in Beijing, I can assure you that only a few have the slightest clue about such matters, and the rest are as regularly duped as anyone else. Those who do have a clue will advise you not to shop unless you are an expert, and that if you are an expert you won't want to shop.
And vis-a-vis the Shop in Shenzhen book/site mentioned, the book (self-published) is on poor ground to start with since Shenzhen is not a place to find good prices for anything except Chinese-made products such as rice cookers or quilts, which are cheaper than in Hong Kong, but not usually on the average visitor's shopping list. They are also cheaper further into mainland China. And Shenzhen is no place to look for antiques.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
That just about sums it up. These may be genuine (and at least if really kingfisher feather items are something genuinely Chinese and quite unusual--unusual things not well known by foreigners are perhaps a little less often faked), but are most likely not.
>Are we better off not buying here?
You are better not to pay serious money for anything (gems, antiques) whose value at home you have not already thoroughly researched, and with which you are not already expert.
> Is it no more/less wise to buy at a place in the China World Mall (we have not been attracted at all to anything in a market nor on the shopping streets)?
Buying at upmarket shops in malls and better hotels is no guarantee whatsoever of authenticity. It is a guarantee that you will pay more money than for the same item seen elsewhere (whether fake or not).
Set aside any worries about antiquity for a moment, and ask yourself if you like the item enough just for what it is to pay the price asked. For some, the whole wearisome question of authenticity is part of the story of the piece, and adds to its value as a memento of the trip. Making fakes and duplicates has a long and glorious history in China, after all. Shortly after regular trade with foreigners began in south China several centuries ago, the southern Chinese began manufacturing fake Western items for sale to northern Chinese.
Unfortunately, by going back to see the piece a second time you've ruined much chance of any serious bargaining, unless you are very skilful indeed. If you haven't already got the price well down from whatever was first asked, then I really wouldn't consider this. Mark-ups for foreigners can be many multiples of the price which would actually be acceptable. But if you think it will knaw at you that you didn't buy it, then buy it. It's certainly a much better thing to buy than fake pearls, poor cloissone, fake 'Song' celadon bowls, fake Mao memorabilia, etc.
> One last thing -- since we don't know any expats here, we cannot really seek shop tips from them.
Having been an expat in Beijing, I can assure you that only a few have the slightest clue about such matters, and the rest are as regularly duped as anyone else. Those who do have a clue will advise you not to shop unless you are an expert, and that if you are an expert you won't want to shop.
And vis-a-vis the Shop in Shenzhen book/site mentioned, the book (self-published) is on poor ground to start with since Shenzhen is not a place to find good prices for anything except Chinese-made products such as rice cookers or quilts, which are cheaper than in Hong Kong, but not usually on the average visitor's shopping list. They are also cheaper further into mainland China. And Shenzhen is no place to look for antiques.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Dec 29th, 2003, 11:47 PM
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Peter - wise words indeed and I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to reply while we are still in Beijing. You have given us great peace of mind. You are quite right about striking the appropriate attitude toward a purchase here -- perhaps we have gotten too caught up in the "real" versus "fake" issue. In the end, as you rightly point out, given that we are not looking for "investments" it is more a question of whether we'd like to have the thing in question and can feel good about it at the price required. One hates to feel "fleeced," but perhaps that is again in the eye of the beholder?! A thousand thanks for your help....
Dec 30th, 2003, 09:23 AM
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I didn't mean any ole ex-pat that you can dig up and fling expert art questions at! lo! Altho nice people they are, the ex-pats!
What is genuine and what is not on late Ching objects is a very chancy thing. At the end of the dynasty, there were many, especially the imperial eunuchs, who took to not just stealing from the imperial treasury and selling its treasures but also to manufacturing fakes and selling those as genuine at exorbitant prices.
Thus, even if you could trace the history of a particular piece and know that some princely person had handled it, there is no guarantee of its authenticity.
I would follow Peter's advice and just buy something because you like it and, at this late date, not try to determine whether its genuine or not.
As for going back to the same store, that should not be a problem. Pretend interest in a number of things. Ask about the prices for a number of things. Bargain hard over something that you don't want, then don't buy it. In other words, confuse the issue and don't head in a beeline straight for the one object of your innermost desires. Bargain simultaneously over several objects. You can go back as many times as you like. Just don't buy anything except for the one thing you really want.
Don't telegraph to the seller that you really want just one thing. Then he/she will have no reason to lower the price.
You might even tell the storekeeper the next time you go in that you have done some research on kingfisher whachamacallits and that you don't believe his is genuine. Force him to give you some kind of history on the object. On several objects.
What you are looking for - that one reliable store which will not lie to you and will sell you a genuine article at a reasonable price - it doesn't exist. This is a very Western concept. Even if the shopkeeper is the most honest in Beijing, he may be mistaken as to the genuineness of his article. Chinese antiques are a minefield with very few true blue experts.
Again, good luck and enjoy your purchase!
What is genuine and what is not on late Ching objects is a very chancy thing. At the end of the dynasty, there were many, especially the imperial eunuchs, who took to not just stealing from the imperial treasury and selling its treasures but also to manufacturing fakes and selling those as genuine at exorbitant prices.
Thus, even if you could trace the history of a particular piece and know that some princely person had handled it, there is no guarantee of its authenticity.
I would follow Peter's advice and just buy something because you like it and, at this late date, not try to determine whether its genuine or not.
As for going back to the same store, that should not be a problem. Pretend interest in a number of things. Ask about the prices for a number of things. Bargain hard over something that you don't want, then don't buy it. In other words, confuse the issue and don't head in a beeline straight for the one object of your innermost desires. Bargain simultaneously over several objects. You can go back as many times as you like. Just don't buy anything except for the one thing you really want.
Don't telegraph to the seller that you really want just one thing. Then he/she will have no reason to lower the price.
You might even tell the storekeeper the next time you go in that you have done some research on kingfisher whachamacallits and that you don't believe his is genuine. Force him to give you some kind of history on the object. On several objects.
What you are looking for - that one reliable store which will not lie to you and will sell you a genuine article at a reasonable price - it doesn't exist. This is a very Western concept. Even if the shopkeeper is the most honest in Beijing, he may be mistaken as to the genuineness of his article. Chinese antiques are a minefield with very few true blue experts.
Again, good luck and enjoy your purchase!
Dec 30th, 2003, 10:56 PM
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EasyTraveler - thanks so much for the bargaining strategy. We will definitely use the misdirection technique this time -- we probably did not have the best poker face on our first visit to the shop! We really appreciate the shopping advice from all...
Jan 12th, 2004, 10:36 PM
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Hi WinterTravel
Don't know if you are still in BJ. I am an expat in Beijing,lived in China for 6 years since 1989- including the past 3 in BJ, married to a lcoal Chinese, an art history major, and a shopper! I agree with peter that all "anitques" are fake, or use old materials, but newly made. Most "antiques" available come from what I call the "bada-bing" dynasty. Want an antique chair??? bada-bing bada boom , here it is. Nothing against Zhang's textiles, but having madeline albright's picture in the store doesn't authenticate their stuff. Technically you can't legally take anything over 200 years old out of China without the red seal in it from the export bureau. If they insist an item is antique, insist on documentation. (granted supporting documentation can be made as easily as fake antiques)
My coworker's brother is a painter and his stuff is in creation Gallery. He gets about 10% of their selling prices. You are paying creation Gallery for their english speaking sales rep, and paying their rent.
My shopping advice: remember that everything has a value and a worth. These two are often not the same. Even if a painting's value is only $50, is it worth it to you to buy it for $200? Maybe if it is what you feel is a fair price for a souvenir of China. Especially since you won't likely be coming back to get it. Considering the cheap cost of quality framing here, you can justify your expenditure that way--spend more on the item and save on framing. Also, remember, that stores can also discount. Scitech Dept store took 1,000 Yuan off the price of my washer and dryer (each!) without blinking an eye.
I'd try some honesty there: say you really like the piece of work, but it isn't in your budget and that you are willing to pay XX for it. (never admit at a market that you acutally like something--you loose bargaining power). This will work ONLY if you are willing to walk away from the item. Offer cash instead of credit card as well. Lastly, this is asia and my old time "my husband would never agree to that price" works wonders.
Don't know if you are still in BJ. I am an expat in Beijing,lived in China for 6 years since 1989- including the past 3 in BJ, married to a lcoal Chinese, an art history major, and a shopper! I agree with peter that all "anitques" are fake, or use old materials, but newly made. Most "antiques" available come from what I call the "bada-bing" dynasty. Want an antique chair??? bada-bing bada boom , here it is. Nothing against Zhang's textiles, but having madeline albright's picture in the store doesn't authenticate their stuff. Technically you can't legally take anything over 200 years old out of China without the red seal in it from the export bureau. If they insist an item is antique, insist on documentation. (granted supporting documentation can be made as easily as fake antiques)
My coworker's brother is a painter and his stuff is in creation Gallery. He gets about 10% of their selling prices. You are paying creation Gallery for their english speaking sales rep, and paying their rent.
My shopping advice: remember that everything has a value and a worth. These two are often not the same. Even if a painting's value is only $50, is it worth it to you to buy it for $200? Maybe if it is what you feel is a fair price for a souvenir of China. Especially since you won't likely be coming back to get it. Considering the cheap cost of quality framing here, you can justify your expenditure that way--spend more on the item and save on framing. Also, remember, that stores can also discount. Scitech Dept store took 1,000 Yuan off the price of my washer and dryer (each!) without blinking an eye.
I'd try some honesty there: say you really like the piece of work, but it isn't in your budget and that you are willing to pay XX for it. (never admit at a market that you acutally like something--you loose bargaining power). This will work ONLY if you are willing to walk away from the item. Offer cash instead of credit card as well. Lastly, this is asia and my old time "my husband would never agree to that price" works wonders.
Jan 12th, 2004, 11:20 PM
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I'm another expat living in Beijing with a suggestion for contemporary art -- you may enjoy 798 "Qi Jiu Ba" which is an area of galleries and artist's studios in a converted factory outside the third ring road. Also interesting is the Red Gate Gallery. Ask your hotel for a copy of That's Beijing or Beijing City Weekender (Beijing's answers to Time Out) for lots of detailed and helpful information.
