Fellow Travelers-
I'm just back from a month in Beijing and happy to answer questions! I did work during the Olympics, but also did a pre-Games tourism run so I hit all the highlights. Most of the tourism stuff is fully covered in the books, online, and in this forum, but here are a few tips:
-Trust me when I say taxi drivers do not speak English. Have maps and directions in Chinese. Taxis are cheap. This is not like Europe where you think you can point to something on a map and the driver will understand, either. You need to have things written in the chinese characters. Your hotel can help or most guide books have some places written out for you.
-Subway very easy to use. Signs in English. Clean and cheap! Be sure you have an up-to-date subway map because several lines JUST opened in time for the Olympics. Very handy.
-If you like to shop at all, budget more time for the Pearl and Silk Markets. 5th floor at the Pearl Market has the best (real) pearls and jade without sales girls grabbing at you. I got a lot of stuff at a store called "Cathy's".
I also bought silk robe for 60 RMB, scarves for 55 RMB, and tshirts for 25 RMB. Also Mao clock for 40 RMB.
-Loved the Great Wall at Mituanyu (don't have my book beside me so probably spelling this wrong, but you get the idea!) take the ski gondola up and the luge (yes, luge!) ride down. I have tons of photos with NO ONE else in them. Nice area of the wall to have to yourself.
- The Night Market is a must see. Just for interesting sights and SMELLS.
- Be prepared for people to take your photo. I'm blonde and blue-eyed and had dozens of Chinese taking my photo everywhere. Happened to my friends as well.
- We stayed pre-Games at the Park Plaza. Nice hotel, nice price, great location. Highly recommend it if you don't mind a "western" hotel. It is not a Chinese hotel.
- Pack a rain jacket! It rained a lot and when it did, it rained steadily for hours
- Pack shoes with good rubber soles. Everything has marble flooring and it is slippery. The Great Wall has tiny stairs that are also very slick even when dry.
- If you get a chance, do go see the Olympic venues of the Bird's Nest and the Water Cube! Far from the central tourist area, but awesome.

No one ever likes to hear this, especially after they've shopped there, but as a public service I have to point out that the last places you should shop as a visitor to Beijing are the Silk and Pearl Markets.

Both venues are tourist-as-victim territory, and the large numbers of foreigners with no knowledge of local conditions being led into these place by their tour guides (who are on kick-backs) should be a bit of a giveaway that you should be shopping elsewhere.

Prices are higher at these markets than anywhere else, not least because even if you are someone with long familiarity of Chinese conditions and fair prices there's no need to deal with you when there are so many visitors with neither who are willing to open their wallets very widely.

It ought to come as no surprise that semi-precious items with an internationally tradable value cannot be found for less than that value in Beijing. Most jade and many pearls are fake: most of the remainder are of low quality. No one should be shopping who is not already well informed as to how to tell a fake pearl from a real one, well-informed as to quality, or wanting to buy imitations and well-informed as to the price of imitations back home. Neither jade, nor pearls, nor jewellery of any kind, nor carpets, nor antiques should be bought in Beijing except by those who have carried out a lot of research and who really know what they are doing. Those who have, and who do know, are very unlikely to buy anything.

I'm afraid all the items listed can be bought for much less, especially by those who shop elsewhere.

(The Great Wall site's name is Mutianyu.)

Peter N-H

So Peter, Tell us how do you tell real jade from fake jade? How do you tell real pearls from fake pearls? Where would you recomend you shop for these items in Beijing? Also does anyone know how to write 14 kt gold charms in chinese characters that i can take with me? I always like to buy charms for my bracelet when i travel? Thanks

I think the entire point of the post, which says very clearly that you should not shop for these things in Beijing, has been missed.

> Tell us how do you tell real jade from fake jade?

If you don't know, don't shop. If you do know, you are unlikely to find items you consider of good value. The majority of Chinese jade is anyway imported (e.g. from British Columbia and New Zealand). You do just as well to shop for these things at home where authenticity can be assured, and local law brought to bear if there are problems.

> How do you tell real pearls from fake pearls?

If you don't know, don't shop. The Chinese have developed not only various ways of faking pearls, but of working low quality pearls into apparently high quality ones. If you don't know how to tell real quality and prices you will not anyway get good value for money.

It is very widely held to be the case that the Chinese are very sharp businessmen. It is sure rather difficult to hold both this true and to believe that they sell below international market value.

> Where would you recomend you shop for these items in Beijing?

As I said quite clearly: "Neither jade, nor pearls, nor jewellery of any kind, nor carpets, nor antiques should be bought in Beijing except by those who have carried out a lot of research and who really know what they are doing."

Obviously that also applies to anything made of '14kt gold'.

I admit I had to look this one up, but a charm for a bracelet is

坠儿 (zhuir4)

Peter N-H

I knew someone would be critical of the Pearl and Silk Markets, but both are tourism sights in Beijing and both are places many people enjoy. Having spent a month in the city, I looked at other shopping areas and I paid a fair price for items I purchased. I purchased real pearls and jade, although fakes are certainly available in both stops. You should just decide what you think is a fair price and bargain how you wish. There are plenty of websites to help you determine how to spot real and fake jewelry.

There's no winning with this, and no one ever wants to accept that they might have shopped in the wrong place or paid too much. So I'm really sorry to take up some of these points, but it's with the interests of those who haven't yet been to Beijing in mind.

> I knew someone would be critical of the Pearl and Silk Markets, but both are tourism sights in Beijing and both are places many people enjoy.

Indeed, many people do enjoy markets, but they can enjoy them without making unwise purchases or paying too much. Neither market has qualities to make them enjoyable that cannot be found in other bustling markets, making them equally enjoyable. The principal difference is indeed that they are full of foreign tourists, and that is precisely the quality that makes them less appropriate for shopping and much higher priced. Never shop where tour groups shop ought probably to be a universal principle of travel. In China it's the first commandment.

Setting that aside surely that lots of other tourists go to a place is never a reason to go in itself; it's other inherent qualities of the destination that make somewhere worth going to or not, and in general the search is for places that are more genuine, and in the case of markets places where locals are selling primarily to locals, not rubbing their hands gleefully at the sight of flocks of the monied and ill-informed. When it comes to tourist shopping there's safely in *lack* of numbers.

> Having spent a month in the city, I looked at other shopping areas and I paid a fair price for items I purchased.

Hm. Longevity of visit doesn't really add much to the argument. I've spent several years in the city altogether, but this doesn't of itself make my views correct, or more right than anyone else's. But some of that time has been spent specifically researching the topic of shopping at the city's markets, talking to vendors, hanging back and listening to conversations between vendors, and so on. One vendor freely admitted that 90% of everything at Panjiayuan was fake, for instance.

A 'fair' price is in the mental calculations of the beholder, of course. But I'm sorry, much lower prices can be paid for all the items listed. I mention this solely because it would be a shame for people visiting Beijing to begin to think that those are the prices they have to pay. If you have a higher price in mind there's little chance you'll successfully bargain for a lower price.

> I purchased real pearls and jade, although fakes are certainly available in both stops.

Can you be absolutely sure of this? If so, can you be absolutely sure that you paid a price for the quality obtained that is significantly better than you would at home?

Supposing that the answers are a firm 'yes', because you have significant expertise, would that still be an argument for others to shop without having themselves gained the level of expertise which in fact almost no casual visitor to Beijing will have?

There are endless stories of the unwise buying jade/pearls/jewellery in China, then having it valued at home to find that it is either fake or of a lower quality than promised, and worth a great deal less than the price paid. There then follow tears and tussles with credit card companies. I'm merely trying to spare others the same pain. For most, if they must shop for such items, then it should be at the costume jewellery end of the scale, and in the assumption that everything purchased is fake, and a price paid accordingly (which means knowledge of the price of good fakes at home is also needed). Anything apparently sold at half the price paid at home is worth, at best, precisely what is paid for it, but usually less.

> You should just decide what you think is a fair price and bargain how you wish.

This is the best method to ensure that you pay too much. No one arriving directly from a developed nation has initially any clue as to real prices in China. Heaven knows, much of the permanently resident expat population doesn't have a clue either.

> There are plenty of websites to help you determine how to spot real and fake jewelry.

China is the land of fake everything, and while there are crude fakes (still good enough to fool the ill-informed or incautious buyer), there are also very good fakes, some desirable in their own right as long as their nature is understood.

If you set off shopping in Beijing's markets in the expectation that 100% of all you see is fake you'll be exaggerating, but only slightly. There's fake tea, fake flash computer memory, fake silk, fake iPods, fake drugs, fake coins, fake notes, and fake just about everything else. There are no real antiques whatsoever, and almost no jade or pearls that are not fake or over-valued, especially in the places to which tourists flock, and even more so those to which tour groups are taken by guides.

Again, I merely mention these points for the benefit of those who have yet to shop. I know they may be unwelcome to those who have shopped already, and I regret that.

Peter N-H

tastravel,

Thanks for the report and your view on your recent trip.

Please excuse Peter NH, we all understand here on this site that he thinks that "if you don't do China his way, it's the wrong way to do it, period, no one else's comments matter."

The rest of us really appreciate what you have to say

Aloha!

I think it's all about the fun of shopping and if it's only small sums of money involved then it really does not matter if they are fakes. I grew up wearing jade and have been to NZ many times. NZ jade is quite different from traditional Chinese jade. I believe Burma is one of their suppliers. I bought some jade and pearls from the Jade Market (also known for fakes!) in Kowloon more than 10 years ago and they still look beautiful.

Since DD was our personal tour guide and refused to let us get "ripped off" we realized we didn't buy all the cheaply priced souveniers that we wanted to get. We felt 'ripped off' returning home with empty bags......so at the Shanghai Airport, (by that time,miles away from our DD) we desperately purchased all kinds of gifts for our family and friends..hahaha talk about getting ripped off...we love this story! We even bought mini terra cotta soldiers at the airport gift shop and we never even went to Xian!
So a trip to Silk Market or Pearl Market may save you money in the long run...

Peter, thanks for your post. I believe it is quite accurate, especially the beginning: "No one ever likes to hear this". You are, to a lesser extent, spitting into the wind again like on that thread about the Olympics "travesty" where there were opposing historical summaries. But keep it up, I do appreciate it.

I kept one of your well thought out (of course) discussions about negotiating in China. I took the lesson to heart and attempted to apply it, though not in China. I was confronted with the fact that I was going to places that were frequented by tourists. The merchants were unwilling to negotiate lower because they knew they could get their price, or better, from the next tourist.

Yet, when I go to a place where locals shop I see things that locals buy: food, mostly. Or average everyday things like toasters and coffee makers.

Some Chinese have some money now. Where would they go to get an authentic jade item - one worth buying in Beijing because it was worked to be a piece of Chinese art, so different from a Maori piece of art from NZ, even if the rock was the same. I suppose that the local balance of supply and demand from locals might be such that it would be better getting a piece in New York.

Peter, when I was in Hong Kong five years ago I went to a shop not far from the Star Ferry port at Kowloon that seemed to have some affiliation with the government, some claim to authenticity. Lots of ivory and other beautiful things.

Do you know the place that I am referring to and what do you think of it?

Back to the pearls I know when we were in Venezuela they held a lighter to the pearls supposedly to prove they were real -
I am not sure if that was a scam also but we all enjoy the pearls that we purchased!

I think if you like something you should buy it -of course we all know it will not be Mikimoto quality!

The jade though - i never knew there was white jade before the Olympics so if anyone has any info on how or where to look at and possibly purchase please post.

Peter if you would not mind sending me the 14 kt gold charm in the chinese characters it did not come through on the page or let me know where to go to find it - here is my e-mail: [email protected]

Thank you!

Peter, I know that wikipedia is hardly an authority, but it has an interesting piece on "faux" jade that says that the Chinese 'yù' (玉) is translated to "jade" in English, but actually includes stone that westerners would not consider jade, and just means "precious/ornamental rock". That 'ying yu' (硬玉, 'hard jade') is jadeite and 'ruan yu' (軟玉, 'soft jade') is nephrite. Is this accurate?

I know looking at cheap "jade" on the street, they were using a lighter to prove it wasn`t fake. Of course, for the price, it was fake. All it showed was, it probably wasn`t plastic. They were scratching pearls to show they were chalky, but I don`t know if that counts either.

A quick google turns up a scratch test for jadeite and a density test (requiring very accurate scales and a bucket of water) for both jadeite and nephrite. Nothing about fire.

If anyone has any actual questions about sights/hotels in Beijing rather than criticisms of where I shopped, please feel free to ask.
It is a wonderful city with so much to offer.
I'm wearing my lovely jewelry from the Pearl Market right now with no regrets!

> So a trip to Silk Market or Pearl Market may save you money in the long run...

Even lightheartedly, the conclusion isn't justified by the premises. Money would of course have been saved by not shopping at a rapacious airport outlet regardless of where else shopping had been done. But if shopping at the Silk and Pearl markets are regarded as making a saving, then presumably paying less still elsewhere would be regarded as an even greater benefit.

> Some Chinese have some money now. Where would they go to get an authentic jade item

The Chinese are fooled as often as everyone else. Many with money shop overseas. Antique pieces change hands privately. There is no serious and reliable jade gallery in Beijing that I am aware of, although some pieces may be found in the lobby shops of top-end foreign-run hotels, and are priced accordingly. There are numerous jade shops in the Curio City, just east and south of Panjiayuan on the East Third Ring Road, but I know for a fact that many other items there are fake. Perhaps the truly well-informed might perhaps find something real. I couldn't really say.

> Peter, when I was in Hong Kong five years ago I went to a shop not far from the Star Ferry port at Kowloon

Perhaps a current Hong Kong resident can help with this, but I imagine it would have been a branch of Chinese Arts and Crafts (or similar name), whose current status I don't know, but which was once where journalists reporting on China, before any of them were allowed in, would go to analyse what was officially on sale in order to get an idea of the ebb and flow of power and influence inside Zhongnanhai: whose face was on the souvenir mugs, and whose had disappeared. The last time I looked it had the same goods as the now rapidly vanishing Friendship Stores, mostly mass-produced souvenirs of modest quality, and for higher prices than payable on the mainland.

> Peter if you would not mind sending me the 14 kt gold charm in the chinese characters

The characters were only for 'charm' (of the bracelet variety). I would look for those (although I can't think where) and not assume that any metal they are said to be made out of is in fact what they are made out of. There is a branch of Tiffany, the New York jeweller, in Beijing...

Have a look here:

http://www.nciku.com/search/all/charm

The characters you want are on line 5, and you can use this site to obtain others (but be very careful, this kind of dictionary translating can only be used very modestly--or you risk trying to use 'charm' of personality instead, for instance). If you can't see the characters on that site you need to go to the settings or preferences part of your browser and enable simplified Chinese. (Or buy a Mac.)

> That 'ying yu' (硬玉, 'hard jade') is jadeite and 'ruan yu' (軟玉, 'soft jade') is nephrite. Is this accurate?

I'm no authority, but 玉 is used as a general term for both nephrite and jadeite. But there are many other stones which the Chinese also call jade of one kind or another ('mutton fat' jade, for instance) but about which English becomes more specific; and these come in a wide variety of colours. To get an idea your best first option is to visit a major museum. As the National Museum in Beijing is still closed, you might like to go and look at the jade collection in the Capital Museum. Note that very many museum exhibits in China are replicas (but since not labelled as such it would not be unreasonable to call these also 'fakes'). The Capital Museum, in a brand-new facility designed by a Frenchman, has the grace to label what it displays honestly. The best of all I've seen is in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, including a famous block that shades from white to green, and which has been carved in the form of a cabbage. The Museum Director of the time told me it was their most popular exhibit.

Other postings speculating on detecting true pearls and jade from false only really demonstrate that such things cannot be learned from the Internet, but only by instruction involving handling the materials in question. Even if fakes could be reliably detected, that still leaves the question of whether value for money is being obtained (and that's true whether the product is real or fake).

Peter N-H

>> Even if fakes could be reliably detected, that still leaves the question of whether value for money is being obtained (and that's true whether the product is real or fake).


Ah..the key point here is "value for money" then.

I think &quot;value for money&quot; for alot of people on vacation is defined in the <i>things</i> we buy that we love but whereas for you, Peter, it's in the actual amount of money paid (the less the better I presume) for stuff you'd probably never care to purchase anyway.

The tourist psyche is a very funny thing - most (including me) don't mind spending money on whatever that floats our boat in a foreign country. Maybe that's why you get so many people apparently not taking (or taking well to) your advice even though they may be well and true - we're tourists and you're not. Just different points of view!

Surely anyone who posts here in genuine goodwill ought to be interested in getting it right for the sake of future travellers to China, and any dispute should be with the facts, and nothing else.

Sparing others from travel pitfalls is more important than a bruised ego or two, and no one who posts in public ought reasonably to demand that their views go unquestioned especially when making recommendations for others to follow.

But as I said right at the beginning, no one who has already been shopping in the places discussed will be happy to hear what's being said, and many will simply want to deny or disagree rather than feel they might have shopped more wisely. That, apparently, is human nature, and I knew this wouldn't go well despite couching my remarks in apologetic language.

There are many responses given when people are told they may have shopped unwisely. Perhaps the most common is, &quot;Well, I don't care because it was still cheap to me/I'm happy to have paid what I paid anyway/I don't mind spending on whatever floats my boat in a foreign country.&quot;

Fair enough, although this attitude just makes things harder for everyone else who follows and can reinforce the oft-heard Chinese idea that visible foreigners are all gormless walking wallets whose job is to be taken for as long a ride as possible. Either way let's not recommend that others do the same thing without fully understanding what they are getting into with fake merchandise, deliberate targeting of visible foreigners, and prices that can sometimes be undercut by shopping elsewhere, notably places not used to fleece tour groups.

Probably most people wish not to acquire fake or over-valued merchandise, and not to pay more than they have to. After all, that's how they conduct their lives when at home, where they equally feel bitter if they find that a neighbour has paid half what they paid for the same item. Suddenly what seemed like good value for money doesn't seem so any more. Each makes a decision as to how much effort they will put in to getting the lowest possible price, and how much extra they will pay rather than bother. But at home these are informed decisions, and the point of contributions here is also to make readers better informed.

It does astonish me how many mind readers there are who propose to tell other contributors what they think, as in the posting above.

&gt; Ah..the key point here is &quot;value for money&quot; then.

No. The key point is that a recommendation has been made to shop for certain goods at certain prices in certain locations. And the response, intended to be for the benefit of those who follow, is to set out why this advice might not be the best because less can be paid, or because shopping at certain locations almost guarantees overpayment. In general no one wants to pay twice the price for something unless it's with their eyes open and with the expectation of some other value added, whether in speed of delivery, time saved, follow-up support or service, or something else.

&gt; we're tourists and you're not. Just different points of view!

Everyone is a shopper. No one wants to be taken for a ride, or to pay more than they have to without doing it entirely voluntarily. If I stop you when I'm visiting your town to ask where I should buy a certain item, I would hope you'd say: &quot;Well if you want the closest place it's Jim's across the road, but Mike's about two blocks away has a bigger selection, and Bert's over there has the lowest prices.&quot; I think I, the tourist, would be very grateful to you, the resident, for that local knowledge, and would decide for myself whether at one end of the scale to make a quick more expensive purchase for instance, or at the other to visit all three stores and then decide what I want.

The tourist/non-tourist dichotomy is a false one, and so this argument isn't at all persuasive. In this case the information has been gathered by the non-tourist specifically with the tourist's welfare in mind, and the arguments apply to everything tourists might want to buy, including things I both would and wouldn't want to buy myself.

I think I've set out very clearly the reasons why I've given the advice I have given, and I've also given some hint as to the experience on which this advice is based. It is provided entirely as is, on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, and with apologies to those who don't like it. Again: Sorry, and I'll now shut up about it.

Everyone else yet to shop, I hope you at least find something to think about here before you open your wallet.

Peter N-H

Absolutely Peter! I certainly appreciate all the advice I can get on local prices and bargaining tactics - one of the most annoying things for me when I travel is trying to figure that out. (In India it seemed to change with almost every town...) Of course for me it's more a question of the transport prices (yeah for meters!) than shopping, but it's always good to know what/where to avoid. In three trips to Beijing I've yet to visit the Silk or Pearl Markets, and I think I'll keep it that way.