Early planning for yet another "second trip" to Japan
Jul 29th, 2015, 03:26 PM
#41
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wunrflsan:
to your remarks I would add, that when traveling we must sometimes need to use our imagination to add something in, and sometimes we need to use it to take something out.
In HNS I used imagination to add something in: the people who lived in those houses long ago. The advantage of this is that I had a lot of control (we were almost the only ones visiting.)
In other places I have used imagination to take something out, to wit, on those occasions when I want to romanticize a place and remove such things as cars parked in sight of places pre-dating the car by at least a couple of centuries; telephone and power lines; the inevitable flotsam and jetsam of a busy sightseeing spot.
You are of course totally correct to point out that a place is not the less real, because it is lived in or for that matter, is a successful tourist destination. People have been selling souvenirs at MSM (Mont St Michel) since medieval pilgrims went there, and that is what I reminded myself as I trotted past many, many stalls.
However, that said, here is what I observed - if only remotely, and not based on actual experience - that made me think that were I to want a romantic view, I would need to use imagination. Specifically, I would need to use it to take something OUT in S-go (the exception being if one can stay the night):
S-go is now a UNESCO site and as with other such sites, this is a mixed blessing. It means two things: the good and the neutral. The good is that they likely have a chance of survival despite the staggering cost of those beautiful thatched rooves. The neutral is that I am a tourist and as such I can hardly blame others like me for wanting to visit, but that said, prior to our trip I checked the various tour company brochures and found that S-go is now on the itineraries of Trafalgar, Globus, Tauck, Road Scholar, Cosmos - and that's just the companies that cater to Western travelers. There will of course also be the Asian tour companies. This means that like MSM in France or San Gimignano in Italy, S-go cannot help but be very busy during daylight hours in peak tourist season. If one is looking for romance, it might, if it is like other tiny spots like San Gimignano, etc. be perhaps most atmospheric in the very early morning or evening hours, before one must share with many others. This is most likely to arrange if one has managed to arrange to stay the night.
However in the case of S-go there is another dilemma: reports have filtered back that depending on the time of year, even the buses there and back can be very heavily subscribed. This suggested to me that even were we to book an overnight, we would need to be prepared to be flexible about arrival and departure times. And if we couldn't stay the night but only passed through, there are limited coin lockers at the bus station (although supposedly the tourist office will accept at least some luggage.)
Touristy, like modernization, is a fact of life and not necessarily bad, but it does bring its logistical challenges.
to your remarks I would add, that when traveling we must sometimes need to use our imagination to add something in, and sometimes we need to use it to take something out.
In HNS I used imagination to add something in: the people who lived in those houses long ago. The advantage of this is that I had a lot of control (we were almost the only ones visiting.)
In other places I have used imagination to take something out, to wit, on those occasions when I want to romanticize a place and remove such things as cars parked in sight of places pre-dating the car by at least a couple of centuries; telephone and power lines; the inevitable flotsam and jetsam of a busy sightseeing spot.
You are of course totally correct to point out that a place is not the less real, because it is lived in or for that matter, is a successful tourist destination. People have been selling souvenirs at MSM (Mont St Michel) since medieval pilgrims went there, and that is what I reminded myself as I trotted past many, many stalls.
However, that said, here is what I observed - if only remotely, and not based on actual experience - that made me think that were I to want a romantic view, I would need to use imagination. Specifically, I would need to use it to take something OUT in S-go (the exception being if one can stay the night):
S-go is now a UNESCO site and as with other such sites, this is a mixed blessing. It means two things: the good and the neutral. The good is that they likely have a chance of survival despite the staggering cost of those beautiful thatched rooves. The neutral is that I am a tourist and as such I can hardly blame others like me for wanting to visit, but that said, prior to our trip I checked the various tour company brochures and found that S-go is now on the itineraries of Trafalgar, Globus, Tauck, Road Scholar, Cosmos - and that's just the companies that cater to Western travelers. There will of course also be the Asian tour companies. This means that like MSM in France or San Gimignano in Italy, S-go cannot help but be very busy during daylight hours in peak tourist season. If one is looking for romance, it might, if it is like other tiny spots like San Gimignano, etc. be perhaps most atmospheric in the very early morning or evening hours, before one must share with many others. This is most likely to arrange if one has managed to arrange to stay the night.
However in the case of S-go there is another dilemma: reports have filtered back that depending on the time of year, even the buses there and back can be very heavily subscribed. This suggested to me that even were we to book an overnight, we would need to be prepared to be flexible about arrival and departure times. And if we couldn't stay the night but only passed through, there are limited coin lockers at the bus station (although supposedly the tourist office will accept at least some luggage.)
Touristy, like modernization, is a fact of life and not necessarily bad, but it does bring its logistical challenges.
Jul 29th, 2015, 08:05 PM
#42
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One of the questions I often ask myself when planning a trip is, "where can I go to get a similar (and perhaps more authentic) experience to X, with less commercial tourism". For instance, with Sue's San Gimignano example, I would suggest Volterra for a "similar" feel in that area, but with a fraction of the crowds.
To this goal, I ask the Fodorsphere for its experience with Miyama, another thatched roof village, in the outskirts of Kyoto.
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3985.html
Not having visited S-go or Miyama, I'd be interested to know how they compare. Given that FromDC is going to Kyoto as well, this might be another option, if S-go doesn't end up fitting well into their itinerary.
To this goal, I ask the Fodorsphere for its experience with Miyama, another thatched roof village, in the outskirts of Kyoto.
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3985.html
Not having visited S-go or Miyama, I'd be interested to know how they compare. Given that FromDC is going to Kyoto as well, this might be another option, if S-go doesn't end up fitting well into their itinerary.
Jul 29th, 2015, 08:28 PM
#44
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I've been to all these places. Hida no Sato is attractive, uncrowded, and educational. Shirakawgo is a district, the place you want to see is actually the village of Ogimachi. I visited on a random Friday in spring and there were 13 tour buses there and a few hundred cars--and the car park is built to take a thousand. The villages of Suganuma and Ainokura (in Gokayama) are much smaller, more interesting, and less visited. Ainokura (the main one) is quite high and spring arrives late. Its car park can take maybe 20 vehicles and there were three there when I visited. I found it much more pleasant and interesting than Ogimachi. I imagine an overnight stay would be interesting and attractive in any of the villages.
Jul 29th, 2015, 09:04 PM
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I've not been to Miyama--it looks interesting. If you just want to visit a gassho house, several city parks have them. There's one in Sankeien in Yokohama, for example, and a few in Osaka (though I forget where).
Unless you are a scholar, I think these villages are all rather similar. What I've found different and interesting are the big farmhouses, like the Chiba residence up in Tono: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e5060.html
Unless you are a scholar, I think these villages are all rather similar. What I've found different and interesting are the big farmhouses, like the Chiba residence up in Tono: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e5060.html
Jul 30th, 2015, 03:02 AM
#46
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Thank you for articulating that so clearly, Russ. Getting feedback on Miyama would be helpful. Appreciate your input too, Someotherguy, having those numbers gives me a better picture of how heavily visited those places are.
Jul 30th, 2015, 09:59 AM
#47
UNESCO on the Shirakawago and Gokayama WHS
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/734
In addition to describing the integrity, authenticity, and history of the three villages, the description includes numbers that probably relate to the popularity of each. That would be the numbers of g-z houses
Suganuma - 8
Ainokura - 20
Ogimachi - 117
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/734
In addition to describing the integrity, authenticity, and history of the three villages, the description includes numbers that probably relate to the popularity of each. That would be the numbers of g-z houses
Suganuma - 8
Ainokura - 20
Ogimachi - 117
Jul 30th, 2015, 09:28 PM
#48
someotherguy, did you rent a car for Gokayama?
FromDC if you are interested in Gokayama and willing to rent a car then that could be an option for you. Either one-way from Takayama to Kanazawa, or a return rental from Kanazawa.
FromDC if you are interested in Gokayama and willing to rent a car then that could be an option for you. Either one-way from Takayama to Kanazawa, or a return rental from Kanazawa.
Jul 31st, 2015, 08:21 AM
#49
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Yes, I rented a car from Kanazawa (I was there on business) and did a 3-day/2 night loop through Shirakawago and Gokayama and then on to Fukui, Tojinbo, Maruoka (excellent sakura at the castle), Eiheiji, etc. I stayed in Fukui.
I went to Takayama and Hida no Sato on a previous trip.
I went to Takayama and Hida no Sato on a previous trip.
Jul 31st, 2015, 01:47 PM
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Apart from the minor challenge of a Japanese GPS (there's a thread on these somewhere: even if advertised as English, they are in Japanese below the top level), the driving is very simple. Rural traffic in Japan is mostly 50 kph limits and everyone follows the rules. It's on the left, of course, and you *must* have an international license. Use tocoo.com to set up the rental. I speak just enough Japanese to handle these transactions but the rental agency often has a bilingual script (I think these are sent by Tocoo) to walk through the rental and return. The trick to using a Japanese GPS is that you enter *the phone number* of your destination.
Jul 31st, 2015, 02:27 PM
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Sorry, that address should be http://www2.tocoo.jp/en
Road signs are mostly bilingual, except when in very rural areas--such as when you are close to your destination! The trick (if without GPS) is to memorize one (e.g., the simplest) of the kanji in the name while you still have bidirectional signs, then look for that kanji when they run out. E.g., the "shira" in Shirakawago is the kanji for "white" and the "go" in Gokayama is "five". These are simple and you should be able to remember them for the short time you need them.
Road signs are mostly bilingual, except when in very rural areas--such as when you are close to your destination! The trick (if without GPS) is to memorize one (e.g., the simplest) of the kanji in the name while you still have bidirectional signs, then look for that kanji when they run out. E.g., the "shira" in Shirakawago is the kanji for "white" and the "go" in Gokayama is "five". These are simple and you should be able to remember them for the short time you need them.
Jul 31st, 2015, 05:29 PM
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I'm not doing very well today: that "bidirectional" should, of course, be "bilingual". While I'm writing, here are the kanji for Shirakawago and Gokayama: 白川郷, and 五箇山. The second kanji in Shirakawago ("river") is very easy and so is the last in Gokayama ("mountain"), but these are very common so there's a danger of getting misled if matching on just a single symbol. You don't need to know what any of these mean. Just choose an easy (but not too common) one and look for that.
Aug 2nd, 2015, 02:31 PM
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someotherguy, thanks for your brief mention of Maruoka Castle - it gave me a great idea for a future short trip - seeing 3 of the 4 original 12 castles I haven't visited - the 4th, Uwajima, is a bit out of the way.
As far as signs while driving - I don't drive but I always make lists of cities/towns/stations etc. that are on my itinerary - in kanji, kana and English for easy reference...
As far as signs while driving - I don't drive but I always make lists of cities/towns/stations etc. that are on my itinerary - in kanji, kana and English for easy reference...
Aug 3rd, 2015, 04:37 PM
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Mara, Maruoka was delightful. I was there on a Saturday during cherry blossom and the castle was a focus for some local festival: there were stalls set up, people in traditional dress, and many families, all enjoying the beautiful day.
Back at Fukui there was a childrens' festival: a procession out from the former castle (now the city offices) and over the moat, with traditional dress, flags, matsuri-style carts, horses, etc. then through a park area with a girl reciting the story, accompanied by drums and other effects. Loads of people out enjoying the proceedings.
Uwajima! It is remote but a really excellent trip: that's the whole reason for having goals like "all 12 original castles" isn't it? It motivates you to go to these out of the way places and get rewarded with a great experience. I went in springtime, by train from Kochi (another of the 12 original castles). You change to the Yodo line in Kubokawa and this is a really great ride. It is very remote--the train has its own route, far from any roads--and very scenic. Mostly very green river valleys, with some villages. The village of Toukawa has incredibly long lines full of flags suspended between valley and hill
It's a slow journey: it takes a couple of hours to go about 30 miles as the crow flies. The train is just a single self-powered car with no separate locomotive (I've seen these up on the San-In coast line, too). The one I caught was set up inside as a traveling museum: a quarter of the seats were replaced by cases with models of previous trains along the line, and there were more cases on the walls between the windows. Other passengers seemed to be tourists, train buffs, and some dressed for the 88 temple pilgrimage.
Uwajima castle has a seriously steep ascent up massive irregular stone steps. I'm somewhat disabled so asked a gardener if there wasn't an easier way. He led me through several "do not pass" tapes and delivered me to the bottom of about 60 feet of scaffolding with steps zig zagging up inside. I couldn't back out, so went up with some trepidation but it proved to be totally solid and delivered me to the top. Splendid views and a fine castle. I chose the stone steps for the descent. For added amusement, the Taga fertility shrine is nearby.
The train line continuing up the coast is much faster. I stopped over for an hour or so in Iyo-Ozu to see the excellent, but reconstructed, castle there. Then on to Imabari which, as well as its castle with the saltwater moat, is the jumping off point for buses along the Kurushima-Kaikyo bridge and road joining Shikoku to Honshu. The road connects various islands in the inland sea, most notably Omishima, which is the site of the Oyamazumi shrine. This one shrine houses 80% of all the NT armor in Japan and complements all those castles by showing the business of war on the personal scale. It's a really awesome collection (it includes the armor of Ōhōri Tsuruhime, the 16 year old woman who led her clan to victory, then comitted suicide when she learned her betrothed had drowned during the battle), nicely displayed in a large museum complex. The shrine is excellent, too, with few visitors.
From Imabari, you can continue to Matsuyama, another of the original 12, then take the ferry to Kure. This is where they built the Yamato (the most powerful battleship ever constructed). There's a good museum with a 1/10 scale model of the Yamato, kamikaze submarines, and other reminders of the more modern face of war. A good trip.
Back at Fukui there was a childrens' festival: a procession out from the former castle (now the city offices) and over the moat, with traditional dress, flags, matsuri-style carts, horses, etc. then through a park area with a girl reciting the story, accompanied by drums and other effects. Loads of people out enjoying the proceedings.
Uwajima! It is remote but a really excellent trip: that's the whole reason for having goals like "all 12 original castles" isn't it? It motivates you to go to these out of the way places and get rewarded with a great experience. I went in springtime, by train from Kochi (another of the 12 original castles). You change to the Yodo line in Kubokawa and this is a really great ride. It is very remote--the train has its own route, far from any roads--and very scenic. Mostly very green river valleys, with some villages. The village of Toukawa has incredibly long lines full of flags suspended between valley and hill
It's a slow journey: it takes a couple of hours to go about 30 miles as the crow flies. The train is just a single self-powered car with no separate locomotive (I've seen these up on the San-In coast line, too). The one I caught was set up inside as a traveling museum: a quarter of the seats were replaced by cases with models of previous trains along the line, and there were more cases on the walls between the windows. Other passengers seemed to be tourists, train buffs, and some dressed for the 88 temple pilgrimage.
Uwajima castle has a seriously steep ascent up massive irregular stone steps. I'm somewhat disabled so asked a gardener if there wasn't an easier way. He led me through several "do not pass" tapes and delivered me to the bottom of about 60 feet of scaffolding with steps zig zagging up inside. I couldn't back out, so went up with some trepidation but it proved to be totally solid and delivered me to the top. Splendid views and a fine castle. I chose the stone steps for the descent. For added amusement, the Taga fertility shrine is nearby.
The train line continuing up the coast is much faster. I stopped over for an hour or so in Iyo-Ozu to see the excellent, but reconstructed, castle there. Then on to Imabari which, as well as its castle with the saltwater moat, is the jumping off point for buses along the Kurushima-Kaikyo bridge and road joining Shikoku to Honshu. The road connects various islands in the inland sea, most notably Omishima, which is the site of the Oyamazumi shrine. This one shrine houses 80% of all the NT armor in Japan and complements all those castles by showing the business of war on the personal scale. It's a really awesome collection (it includes the armor of Ōhōri Tsuruhime, the 16 year old woman who led her clan to victory, then comitted suicide when she learned her betrothed had drowned during the battle), nicely displayed in a large museum complex. The shrine is excellent, too, with few visitors.
From Imabari, you can continue to Matsuyama, another of the original 12, then take the ferry to Kure. This is where they built the Yamato (the most powerful battleship ever constructed). There's a good museum with a 1/10 scale model of the Yamato, kamikaze submarines, and other reminders of the more modern face of war. A good trip.
Aug 3rd, 2015, 06:02 PM
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someotherguy, thanks for all the information...I hope the OP isn't upset that we seem to have gone off topic...lol.
I actually changed trains in Uwajima but did not get off to see the castle...my bad.....I went from Matsuyama to Uwajima, then changed at Kubokawa and on to Kochi - a five hour trip. I spent around ten days traveling around Shikoku in 2013 and did see the other three original castles there - Marugame, Kochi and Matsuyama....maybe one day I will return for Uwajima.
Next year though Maruoka, Inuyama and Bitchu Matsuyama castles may fit into an itinerary....
I actually changed trains in Uwajima but did not get off to see the castle...my bad.....I went from Matsuyama to Uwajima, then changed at Kubokawa and on to Kochi - a five hour trip. I spent around ten days traveling around Shikoku in 2013 and did see the other three original castles there - Marugame, Kochi and Matsuyama....maybe one day I will return for Uwajima.
Next year though Maruoka, Inuyama and Bitchu Matsuyama castles may fit into an itinerary....
