Dynamic Currency Conversion in China
Oct 6th, 2009, 07:41 PM
#21
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No, I believe in capitalism.
Also the other thing I find irksome about this whole thing are the disingenuous disclaimers. I mean, if I was never offered a choice, why does the disclaimer say that I was offered such a choice? Not only that, there's really no other way other than what's offered.
At least be honorable when you're trying to scam someone!
Also the other thing I find irksome about this whole thing are the disingenuous disclaimers. I mean, if I was never offered a choice, why does the disclaimer say that I was offered such a choice? Not only that, there's really no other way other than what's offered.
At least be honorable when you're trying to scam someone!
Oct 6th, 2009, 08:30 PM
#22
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hey...its china, what do you expect....did you not expect for them to try to squeeze every penny out of you? their honesty is different than in the usa....i learned that a long time ago...
ever been to italy? or turkey or worse still russia...
all you are doing is raising your blood pressure over something that represents 3% or less of your entire expenditures for the whole trip....think of it this way: on the plane that took you to china, i bet there were no two people who paid the same amount for their tickets....do you bombard the airlines with complaints and work yourself into a stew over it?? no its expected and so are over charges in many overseas places we travel to...
i'm going to bed and hope not to worry about your 3%... i suggest you do the same if its bed time where you live...bon soir
ever been to italy? or turkey or worse still russia...
all you are doing is raising your blood pressure over something that represents 3% or less of your entire expenditures for the whole trip....think of it this way: on the plane that took you to china, i bet there were no two people who paid the same amount for their tickets....do you bombard the airlines with complaints and work yourself into a stew over it?? no its expected and so are over charges in many overseas places we travel to...
i'm going to bed and hope not to worry about your 3%... i suggest you do the same if its bed time where you live...bon soir
Oct 6th, 2009, 08:53 PM
#23
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Oh believe me, my blood pressure is not rising because of the 3%. I may sound indignant, but I do understand that there's a Chinese way of doing things. As I said, it's not the 3%. It's the principle.
I'm going to try to pursue this to see if I can get some money back. I think that most people think like you, which is why merchants and banks get away with these outrageous charges.
I'm a little jet-lagged so I'm organizing my photos and also waiting to call a friend on the west coast. I'm not staying up worrying about my 3%.
Regarding the multiple prices paid by different people, I encountered this in Beijing. I wouldn't have known, except that one hotel I stayed in printed my receipt on recycled paper. Initially I thought that they had a mistake because the name wasn't my name until I realized that they had actually printed my receipt on someone else's.
So I saw this first hand. The local had something like a 15-20% discount.
Needless to say, I was annoyed. But I find this more acceptable in this case because after all, I'm not a local and I didn't have the time or the familiarity to research the best deals I could possibly have gotten.
But at least I bought the Beijing-Hangzhou flights on Travelzen and not Expedia!
DCC is an entirely different beast, in my opinion. Credit card usage is international and China should be no different. Plus there's probably a language issue so this scam is easier to carry out in China.
I'm going to try to pursue this to see if I can get some money back. I think that most people think like you, which is why merchants and banks get away with these outrageous charges.
I'm a little jet-lagged so I'm organizing my photos and also waiting to call a friend on the west coast. I'm not staying up worrying about my 3%.
Regarding the multiple prices paid by different people, I encountered this in Beijing. I wouldn't have known, except that one hotel I stayed in printed my receipt on recycled paper. Initially I thought that they had a mistake because the name wasn't my name until I realized that they had actually printed my receipt on someone else's.
So I saw this first hand. The local had something like a 15-20% discount.
Needless to say, I was annoyed. But I find this more acceptable in this case because after all, I'm not a local and I didn't have the time or the familiarity to research the best deals I could possibly have gotten.
But at least I bought the Beijing-Hangzhou flights on Travelzen and not Expedia!
DCC is an entirely different beast, in my opinion. Credit card usage is international and China should be no different. Plus there's probably a language issue so this scam is easier to carry out in China.
Oct 6th, 2009, 08:56 PM
#24
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Oh, for what it's worth, I've been to Italy many times and I never encountered DCC there.
I was in Istanbul once.
In my opinion, the big problem there (Italy and Istanbul) was the cab drivers with doctored meters who may not be scrupulous.
In China, I rarely encountered dishonest cab drivers. The only time I felt I was taken for a ride was in Beijing where the cab fare ran to over 20 yuan for what should have been a short distance (the female driver kept insisting that there was no way to turn). But that's really a small price anyway.
We did have one annoying incident in Hangzhou. I'll get to that if I ever get to writing a report.
I was in Istanbul once.
In my opinion, the big problem there (Italy and Istanbul) was the cab drivers with doctored meters who may not be scrupulous.
In China, I rarely encountered dishonest cab drivers. The only time I felt I was taken for a ride was in Beijing where the cab fare ran to over 20 yuan for what should have been a short distance (the female driver kept insisting that there was no way to turn). But that's really a small price anyway.
We did have one annoying incident in Hangzhou. I'll get to that if I ever get to writing a report.
Oct 7th, 2009, 01:43 AM
#25
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During our recent trip to China, we paid cash for everything to avoid the 3% cc charge. I used and ATM card, B of A, that had an arrangement with China Construction Bank, so there was no fee. Consequently, no transaction fees whatsoever.
Oct 7th, 2009, 03:50 AM
#26
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<<<It's the principle>>>
Why try to apply YOUR principle to others. Either you don't subject yourself to their principle or just write it off as part of the cost for your trip for gaining an experience.
Why try to apply YOUR principle to others. Either you don't subject yourself to their principle or just write it off as part of the cost for your trip for gaining an experience.
Oct 7th, 2009, 04:16 AM
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Keep in mind that some banks are starting to charge an extra percentage (over the 1% standard Visa or MC fee) for foreign ATM withdrawals. Watch out for it.
With DCC on credit card purchases, not only do you get a lousy exchange rate from the merchant, but you still pay the Visa/MC 1% for foreign transactions plus whatever your credit card issuer chooses to add--which could be nothing or up to 3%.
My bank charges nothing extra for foreign ATM withdrawals, and my credit card issuer charges nothing extra for foreign purchases--they only pass on the standard 1% Visa/MC fee. I get a 1%-3% rebate on my credit card purchases, so I at least break even--I never accept the DCC option, and always check my receipt to make sure the merchant didn't make a "mistake" and use DCC when I didn't want it.
With DCC on credit card purchases, not only do you get a lousy exchange rate from the merchant, but you still pay the Visa/MC 1% for foreign transactions plus whatever your credit card issuer chooses to add--which could be nothing or up to 3%.
My bank charges nothing extra for foreign ATM withdrawals, and my credit card issuer charges nothing extra for foreign purchases--they only pass on the standard 1% Visa/MC fee. I get a 1%-3% rebate on my credit card purchases, so I at least break even--I never accept the DCC option, and always check my receipt to make sure the merchant didn't make a "mistake" and use DCC when I didn't want it.
Oct 7th, 2009, 04:57 AM
#28
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I'll write it off if I can't get the $ back. In any case, why should I subject my principle to the DCC principle -- which is basically a scam principle?
Honestly, that just seems like a ridiculous proposition.
Plus, as I said, I was never presented with a real choice.
Needless to say I really can't fathom the philosophy held by some Fodorites, while I'm sure that I must appear rather unfathomable to many of you also.
But honestly, I can't figure out why people think that throwing $ and being scammed is basically a-ok. I don't think it's ok, but that's just me.
Honestly, that just seems like a ridiculous proposition.
Plus, as I said, I was never presented with a real choice.
Needless to say I really can't fathom the philosophy held by some Fodorites, while I'm sure that I must appear rather unfathomable to many of you also.
But honestly, I can't figure out why people think that throwing $ and being scammed is basically a-ok. I don't think it's ok, but that's just me.
Oct 7th, 2009, 06:41 AM
#29
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Don't get me wrong. Nobody thinks that throwing $ and being scammed in OK.
My point is that you operate on your principle that everything is clear and the choices are presented to you in a honest manner. However, other people might operating with a different principle such as scamming a tourist as much as possible. I believe that happens everywhere under different forms even legal and supposedly "honest" forms (overpricing, user's fees, monopoly, tipping, service charge, prizes, sales, etc.) that you have no choice but to accept it even that you know full well that it is a scam.
If you deal with a reputable hotel chain than you might have a chance of making your argument. Otherwise, it is not worth the effort to reverse the scam.
On the other hand this could be an honest mistake by the hotel clerk. In that case you would have a very good chance to sort it out and get your money back. But how do they reverse it now, if the charge is in Yuan, what conversion rate will you cc company charge you? the current rate or the rate on the day the transaction was made?
The best way is trying to do research on forums like this and learn about these scams ahead of time and avoid it thereby minimizing the chance of subjecting yourself to "other operating principles".
Thanks to postings like this one where you took the time to warn other travellers, we now know of this potential scam and hopefully can deal with it.
My point is that you operate on your principle that everything is clear and the choices are presented to you in a honest manner. However, other people might operating with a different principle such as scamming a tourist as much as possible. I believe that happens everywhere under different forms even legal and supposedly "honest" forms (overpricing, user's fees, monopoly, tipping, service charge, prizes, sales, etc.) that you have no choice but to accept it even that you know full well that it is a scam.
If you deal with a reputable hotel chain than you might have a chance of making your argument. Otherwise, it is not worth the effort to reverse the scam.
On the other hand this could be an honest mistake by the hotel clerk. In that case you would have a very good chance to sort it out and get your money back. But how do they reverse it now, if the charge is in Yuan, what conversion rate will you cc company charge you? the current rate or the rate on the day the transaction was made?
The best way is trying to do research on forums like this and learn about these scams ahead of time and avoid it thereby minimizing the chance of subjecting yourself to "other operating principles".
Thanks to postings like this one where you took the time to warn other travellers, we now know of this potential scam and hopefully can deal with it.
Oct 7th, 2009, 07:03 AM
#30
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Thanks for your clarification. Of course one of my intentions of posting this was to alert fellow travellers to this scam.
I'm well aware of DCC and have encountered it in the past and have read about it here as well, but I have never encountered it in such a rampant and inflexible form as I did in China.
As I mentioned the hotel did call me back. I don't think that there's anything they can reverse on their side. So the credit card company has to deal with them in a formal dispute.
If it gets resolved, I suspect that transaction (now in USD) will get voided, and a new transaction will get posted in yuan and converted at the now prevailing exchange rate. Of course, this is not necessarily in my favor. If they can resolve this quickly, I think the difference in exchange rates is quite trivial, as I mentioned that my understanding is that China exerts a strong hand in maintaining the USD-CNY exchange rate but where CNY appreciates at a steady pace against USD. Over a period of days, the exchange rate difference should be negligible for small transactions.
This is just an intelligent guess based on experience. I once had Ibis in London void a charge and issue a credit. The exchange rate actually moved in my favor when the credit was billed at the then prevailing rate.
In any case, I'd not mind paying more than I did had I stuck to DCC initially because I do believe that something should be done to stop this scam. If more consumers complain and reject this scheme, it can't survive.
I'm well aware of DCC and have encountered it in the past and have read about it here as well, but I have never encountered it in such a rampant and inflexible form as I did in China.
As I mentioned the hotel did call me back. I don't think that there's anything they can reverse on their side. So the credit card company has to deal with them in a formal dispute.
If it gets resolved, I suspect that transaction (now in USD) will get voided, and a new transaction will get posted in yuan and converted at the now prevailing exchange rate. Of course, this is not necessarily in my favor. If they can resolve this quickly, I think the difference in exchange rates is quite trivial, as I mentioned that my understanding is that China exerts a strong hand in maintaining the USD-CNY exchange rate but where CNY appreciates at a steady pace against USD. Over a period of days, the exchange rate difference should be negligible for small transactions.
This is just an intelligent guess based on experience. I once had Ibis in London void a charge and issue a credit. The exchange rate actually moved in my favor when the credit was billed at the then prevailing rate.
In any case, I'd not mind paying more than I did had I stuck to DCC initially because I do believe that something should be done to stop this scam. If more consumers complain and reject this scheme, it can't survive.
Oct 7th, 2009, 07:07 AM
#31
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In any case, just in case this was lost in the long posts, I should reiterate at Din Tai Fung and at the hotel, I clarified if the charge was in yuan first before signing. In both cases, they affirmed that that would be the case. The scheme at Lei Garden was even more disingenuous. Choosing CNY explicitly had no effect.
The hotel, in their call back to me last night, asserted that they had no control over the exchange rate and this was established by my cc company. I think that that's just false, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and attributing that to their seeming ignorance of how DCC works.
The hotel, in their call back to me last night, asserted that they had no control over the exchange rate and this was established by my cc company. I think that that's just false, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and attributing that to their seeming ignorance of how DCC works.
Oct 13th, 2009, 03:52 PM
#33
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Whatever it is, this does seem to be the norm in China. I found another receipt where I was given a chosen of CNY vs USD, but when I marked CNY, I was charged the USD amount anyway.
I should follow up with the cc company to see where they are on this.
I should follow up with the cc company to see where they are on this.
Jun 21st, 2010, 09:39 AM
#34
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Bank of China Scam
Just returned from a trip from Hong Kong and China
In HK, all the charges are in HK $, thus avoiding the 3% Dynamic exchange fee. The only one that charge Dynamic exchange fee is Bank of China subsidiary that process Visa CC transactions.
In China, things gets really bad. Each time I ask to be charged in RMB, it came out to be in US$. After protest, it still come up with a statement saying that I was offer to reject the US$ option (which I did not). The bank say all I have to do is to cross out the option line and all the fine prints and I will be fine and will be in RMB. When I came home and check my statements, it all had the 3% Dynamic Exchange rated added onto my Schwab Credit card.
It is a big scam by Bank of China.. Be careful when you use credit card in China.
All my charges including Shangri-la are in US $ even I crossed out all the options in the US$ option, also wrote big sign as RMB. Is you want, I can eMail you the credit card slips.
Just returned from a trip from Hong Kong and China
In HK, all the charges are in HK $, thus avoiding the 3% Dynamic exchange fee. The only one that charge Dynamic exchange fee is Bank of China subsidiary that process Visa CC transactions.
In China, things gets really bad. Each time I ask to be charged in RMB, it came out to be in US$. After protest, it still come up with a statement saying that I was offer to reject the US$ option (which I did not). The bank say all I have to do is to cross out the option line and all the fine prints and I will be fine and will be in RMB. When I came home and check my statements, it all had the 3% Dynamic Exchange rated added onto my Schwab Credit card.
It is a big scam by Bank of China.. Be careful when you use credit card in China.
All my charges including Shangri-la are in US $ even I crossed out all the options in the US$ option, also wrote big sign as RMB. Is you want, I can eMail you the credit card slips.
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