dinks

We are planning on visiting China for about 2 1/2 weeks in October and would like to get some thoughts from you folks out there.

First, from a climate and crowd standpoint, is this a good time to go?

Second, we have a rough idea as to our itinerary. How does this sound?:
Beijing- 4-5 nights
Shanghai- 2 nights
Xian and Guangzhou- 4 nights
Hong Kong- 5-6 nights

Third, we are Chinese and therefore do not anticipate any language difficulties. However, this will be our first time to China. Should we join tours or go on our own?

Thanks for your input.

PeterN_H

If you have Mandarin you certainly need not feel the need to book anything in advance at all, and you'll save a great deal of money by not doing so. You should avoid the first week of October, which is a national holiday when prices at many destinations rise steeply, and tourist sights are very crowded. Mid-October onwards the numbers of travellers is small.

It's a shame that you choose only to visit major cities and those on the typical tourist trot round China, too. As this is not really what China is about. Guangzhou has little to recommend it, so why not cut that and substitute something more rural and scenic, or even just a smaller and less touristed town.

How about Beijing, then Xi'an, then Shanghai (if you must), and south Quanzhou and Xiamen in Fujian Province. You can also consider taking the overnight cruise from Xiamen to Hong Kong as an excellent way to reach that city, cutting down the number of nights in Hong Kong to no more than four and adding the spare days to Fujian Province, allowing rural excursions from Quanzhou (to Chongwu, for instance), or from Xiamen (dao Kejiazu de tulou, biru shuo).

But certainly go on your own.

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

rkkwan

I agree with Peter. Guangzhou has little to offer. But you may want to go to Suzhou from Shanghai. And are you visiting relatives or have other business in Hong Kong? If not, you may want to cut that visit to 3-4 nights. There really isn't that much to see.

If you want the cheapest way to travel, you may want to join a tour in Hong Kong. Prices are very low - better than buying the plane tickets and booking hotels by yourself. However, there are many downsides. One is that many are not reliable. If they don't get enough people to join, they may just cancel at the last minute. And they usually waste a lot of your time during travel for shopping when the guides can get kickbacks.

You'll see much more by going to the places by yourself. Of course, that means more planning and research.

PeterN_H

I'm sorry to flatly disagree, but you can most certainly undercut the high prices charged for tours from Hong Kong by booking yourself as you go. One of the principal complaints of tour operators is that they cannot get the price discounting on Chinese domestic flights that they get on those elsewhere in the world. You can get the same price they do for both flights and most hotels by showing up in person, and without having to pay their commission and overheads.

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

rkkwan

The OP can decide whether these are good deals, I'll just give you an example. This is from one of the bigger tour companies in HK, Wing On Travel:

http://wingontravel.com.hk/chi/ecom-...9999&pax=2

7-day tours, with non-stop flights HKG-PEK, PEK-XIY, XIY-HKG. 4 nights of 4* hotel in Beijing, 2 nights of 4* in Xi'an. 17 meals (excluding those ont the planes). All admissions. HK$4,499 + $420 tips. Total US$630 per person. [Some discounts if booked early.]

It is a fraction, and I really mean a fraction, of what the best US-based companies charge for a similar tour.

PeterN_H

Whether or not tours from Hong Kong are a good deal is not the same question as whether, as originally stated, they are cheaper than doing it yourself.

They are not.

It's misleading to suggest that the cost of a mass market tour out of Hong Kong is a fraction of "what the BEST U.S. companies charge for a tour". Like is not being compared with like. There are mass market short tours out of the U.S. for under $1000, and while there are undoubtedly savings to be made by buying in Hong Kong, it's important to compare hotels, etc. Not all 'four star' hotels are the same. It's possible to buy an 18-day tour of China including all international and internal flights for under $2000 (no doubt with a few niggling extras). Five sixths of something is indeed a fraction of it, but doesn't represent a flabbergasting discount.

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

rkkwan

If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I am not comparing the VALUE of a Hong Kong tour to a US-based tour. Those are totally different products. What I am saying is that there are inexpensive tours one can join, at a fraction of the cost of a US-based tour, which is true.

For example, Tauck charges US$4,470 for a 17-day tour, land only. That's US$263 a day. A HK tour like the one I linked to is US$90 a day.

And can a couple travelling alone spend less than $630 per person on a trip similar to that tour I'm talking about? Maybe if you do a whole lot of research and haggling. But this is with 3 flights (and HKG-PEK is not cheap), 6 nights of hotel, all meals, all admissions, tours and transportation. You cannot say that's not a good value, despite of the problems I already stated in my earlier post. .

Some people like to travel by themselves, some with luxury tours; all I am saying is that if one understands Cantonese, a tour group from Hong Kong is a cheap and relatively low-stress way to see China for those who've not been there. Especially since dinks asked this specifically in his original post.

PeterN_H

So let's see:

The claim is that a cheap tour from Hong Kong is a lot cheaper than an expensive tour from the U.S.

Not really surprising.

But is a cheap tour from HK 'a fraction, and I mean really a fraction' of the cost of a similar tour bought in the U.S., which would be something worth noting?

To use the same calculation as above, the tour I mentioned comes out to US$110 per person per day, versus $90 for the tour starting in Hong Kong, but it *includes* the trans-Pacific flight. So (although nothing else is known about the components, and calculating a daily rate in this way doesn't make much sense), there's little difference when like is compared with like.

The reason is that everyone is using the same ground handlers with the same inflated prices, then wrapping the tour up with their own overheads and margins.

The only element of a China tour on which you won't be able to beat the tour companies in most cases is the cost of the trans-Pacific flight, and you lose that benefit by starting in Hong Kong.

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

dinks

Thank you both very much for the enthusiastic replies. It is ironic that we speak Mandarin and Cantonese but are considering joining tour groups. We?ve traveled to Europe on our own without knowing some of the languages. We did all the planning on our own, the flights, ground transfers, hotels, trains, etc. Getting around in Europe was pretty easy w/ the expansive metro and train systems. We have and continue to consider joining tours in HK but have the same reservation- tours being cancelled the last minute. The main reasons for considering a tour group are safety and transportation. We have not heard encouraging things about China?s safety issue. Also we?re not sure how efficient the public transportation system is there. Being that it?s our first time there, we?re a bit hesitant to travel on our own, but that's not to say we won't.

We?d greatly appreciate it if you could shed some light on our concerns- safety and public transportation.

Thank you much!

PeterN_H

Safety: In terms of crime? The Chinese themselves will tell you that China is very unsafe, and constantly remind you to key a close eye on your things, not walk around at night, etc.

However, you can in fact walk around at night as much as you like, with the greatest dangers being holes in ill-lit streets and low-slung wires, not mugging. Covert theft has certainly risen sharply, but violent theft is still a rarity for visitors, and although it's slightly more likely for those who are of Chinese descent, the chances of problems are still very slight.

In terms of accidents? The death toll on Chinese roads is not encouraging, and crossing the road takes a great deal more caution than it does almost anywhere else on the planet. Nevertheless, the chances of being hurt remain small for those who are alert.

Transportation: China is the last great railway-building nation with one of the planet's most extensive rail networks, still growing at around 10,000km per five year plan (although some of that is double tracking, and each new announcement may well contain some track that never actually got built after the last one). Departures are frequent, increasingly speedy, and almost always punctual to the minute. The domestic air network is also extensive, and despite forced mergers of several companies, on most routes supply still exceeds demand. A great deal of flying is done on a walk-up basis, and discounts on what are already remarkably cheap fares can often be negotiated. Additionally, China is in the process of constructing a highway network, down which cruise Volvo, Mercedes, and Daewoo (and Chinese imitations), often with on-board lavatory, smartly uniformed attendant, and free mineral water and newspaper. On some routes these are now considerably quicker than the trains. To be sure, there are still plenty of beaten-up minibuses on backwater routes, too.

PeterN_H

From Beijing to Xi'an there are many flights a day, and (the last time I looked) four overnight aircon express trains of more than adequate comfort. By rail from Xi'an to Shanghai is slower, so a flight would be better, as would Shanghai to Quanzhou (assuming you went that route) or to Xiamen. Quanzhou to Xiamen has the sort of luxury buses described above. The Wasa Queen from Xiamen to HK is HK-run, and spotless, but only runs once or twice a week now, so you'd need to check schedules.

If you stick to your original route, Beijing to Shanghai again has overnight expresses or plenty of flights. Shanghai to Xi'an and Xi'an to Guangzhou would again be flying. There are frequent express train services from Guangzhou directly to Kowloon, as well as high speed ferry services, and some bus routes.

There's no corner of China that can't be reached by public transport of some kind or other, remembering that car ownership is still very limited (not limited enough, you'll say, when you try to cross the road).

It is funny how it's often people of Chinese descent who are most conservative about a visit to China, their fears perhaps fed by parental accounts of China past, or friends and neighbours' visits to the family village a few years ago (that's certainly the case with my relatives by marriage). The problem is China changes so fast that if your information is two years old it's already wildly out of date.

Don't expect everything to run like clockwork. But getting around the country really is no problem at all these days.

Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

rkkwan

dinks - The only place where safety is a real concern is in Shenzhen, especially at or near the border crossings from Hong Kong. Avoid coaches that use the "Wong Kong" crossing, as well as the train crossing at Lo Wu, if possible. Take a ferry. Take a coach that crosses at "Man Kam To". Take the "through train" if you're going to Guangzhou.

Parts of Shenzhen is pretty messy with lots of pickpockets and aggressive panhandlers. Also, at the Wong Kong crossing, it's confusing where your coach will pick you up after you cross the border. [I don't know about the setup right now, but often passport/visa holders may take longer than HK residents with the "return permit" to enter China. So, you may get seperated from others in your group/coach.]

As far as highway safety, I would avoid taking the overnight buses from Hong Kong to Xiamen and Fuzhou in the Fujian provinces. You hear about several serious accidents involving these sleeper coaches every year, with many fatalities. But I don't think you will be travelling on those roads.