sueblue

Hi Fodorites. I decided to start a new thread with an "almost complete" itinerary. PeterH, SSteveS, and others, thanks for your insight and helpful suggestions. Unfortunately, my friend is pretty determined to hit the more known sights or as she considers the “highlights” of China. I guess her thinking is that areas become overcome with tourists because there is something worthwhile to see at those spots. In any case, we are in the midst of scheduling the following and hope that this will provide us with a good introduction to Chinese culture, and the major sights. We could use some advice on transportation schedules and the most efficient way to get in the the necessary time in each locale. We would like to fly, if possible, to minimize transportation time.

As a rough estimate, we are thinking of spending 3 days in Hong Kong (potentially one of which will be used for Macau), 2 days in Guillin, 2 days in Xian, 3 days in Shanghai (one of which will be used for Suzhoo) and hopefully, 4 days in Beijing:

4/3: Leave US to Hong Kong, Hotel TBD
4/4: Arrive Hong Kong Evening (Sleep Hong Kong)
4/5: Tour Hong Kong (Sleep Hong Kong)
4/6: Tour Hong Kong (Sleep Hong Kong)
4/7: Visit Macau or Tour More Hong Kong (Sleep Hong Kong)

Question: Is it possible to fly out to Guillin during the evening of 4/7? If not, and we fly to Guillin in the AM of 4/8, what time would we get into town? In other words, what is the best way to get two days in Guillin?

4/8: Fly Guillin, Tour Guillin (Sleep Guillin Sheraton)
4/9: River Cruise to Yangshuo and Tour Yangshuo (Sleep Guillin Sheraton)
4/10: TBD (Perhaps more Guillin, or Fly Xian or both) (Sleep Xian Shangrila Golden Flower)

4/11: Tour Xian (Sleep Xian Shangrila Golden Flower)
4/12: Tour Xian (Sleep Xian, Shangrila Golden Flower)

Question: Similar to Guillin, we would like two full days in Xian. How would your structure the timing here considering the flight times?

4/13: Fly Shanghai, Tour Shanghai (Sleep Shanghai Westin Bund)
4/14: Tour Shanghai (Sleep Shanghai Westin Bund)
4/15: Drive and Tour Suzhoo (Sleep Shanghai Westin Bund)

Question: Is it possible to fly out to Beijing on the evening of 4/15?

4/16: Fly Beijing, Tour Beijing (Sleep Peninsula Hotel)
4/17: Tour Beijing (Sleep Peninsula Hotel)
4/18: Tour Beijing (Sleep Peninsula Hotel)
4/19: Tour Beijing (Sleep Peninsula Hotel)
4/20: Fly Home to US

In Beijing, we were thinking that we would spend one full day at the Great Wall – possibly at Mutianyu or Jinshanling, or both? Or hit both areas of the wall, each on different half days? Will logistics allow this?

Once again, we can probably change our ticket to leave Beijing on 4/21 if we really need to.

By the way, we booked the hotels ourselves and it appears that a room with two beds will always be two single beds.

Thanks again, everyone. I hope I haven’t been repetitive . . . and I'm not ignoring your valuable suggestions. I am just trying to balance a few different interests here.

Thanks!

rkkwan

There are usually three non-stops daily from Hong Kong (HKG) to Guilin (KWL). They all depart in late afternoon or early evening. Hong Kong Airlines at around 5pm, Dragonair 6:40p, China Southern 7:35p.

If you want to fly up on 4/8, there's a China Southern from Shenzhen at 11am, arriving KWL at noon.

Macau needs a whole day. But it's possible to take all your stuff to Macau on 4/7 morning. There's an Air Macau flight at 5:25 from Macau (MFM) to KWL. Or take the Turbojet directly from Macau to HKG at 4:45p, and then connect to the China Southern at 7:35p to KWL.

If you're doing that, you should go to Macau evening on 4/6. Hotels are cheaper in Macau than Hong Kong anyways.

rhkkmk

i would skip macau

ekscrunchy

If you just choose to see the Wall at Mutianyu you will not use up an entire day. You can get there early and spend an hour or so before lunch, arriving back in Beijing in early afternoon. All depends on how much walking along the Wall you want to do...

PeterN_H

I have to admit that on such a limited visit I wouldn't visit two Great Wall spots but take the time to get out to one more spectacular one. Even if you don't attempt to hike in either direction for any distance, Jinshanling's long elevated ridge-top line is one of the most impressive easily accessible sections, particularly attractive in the afternoon sun. The rebuilt section is good but it's easy to get beyond this in either direction to some atmospheric decay.

But at the moment it takes two to three hours to get there, and you'd want to spend two to three hours on the Wall probably. However, if the new Jing-Cheng expressway has finally opened then you'll be able to get there much more quickly, and probably in half the time.

Take a picnic.

Peter N-H

sueblue

Hi all. Well the itinerary is set. The hotels are booked. We have our flights determined. Using a Chinese tour operator, we have a quote of approx. $1100 p/p for a private car with a driver and guide, taking us around most days. It also includes lunch on the days we are together as well as admission to the various points of interest and the day cruise in Guillin. They will also be providing private transfers to and from all of our hotels. (The operator will also be booking our flights which are appoximately $800. At first, this sounded high, but a US agent confirmed the prices.)

Once again, I understand all of the pros and cons of independent travel vs using a guide or tour, and the problem with shopping stops which will insist be limited, but we would like to opt for convenience in this case. I just would like to know if this quote seems reasonable or is ridiculously high.

One final question, do you think the guides at the individual sites are more knowledgeable than the general guide who takes you to multiple sites? If this is the case, perhaps we can just hire a driver.

Thank you, all. I am looking forward to the end of this planning process!

rkkwan

US$800 for 4 flights is not that bad, if you need to have them finalize now. Cheaper fares usually aren't available until closer to flight time. And in particular, if it's flying from HKG-KWL, and not from SZX.

MiriamH

I think it's worth it to have most of the details worked out ahead of time considering you are covering a lot of ground in a short time. We also opted for "convenience" last year on our trip, we had two kids and also my parents, a group of 8 altoghether, so it made more sense to pre-book. For the number of days you are traveling I think the $$ they are asking is reasonable.
Concerning the guides, normally what happens is that your tour company will "outsource" the ground arrangements to CITS, the government travel agency. We had a different local guide in all the different locations, so they were definitely knowledgeable about their respective places. The downside is that quality of the guides is hit or miss. Some were excellent, great english, fun and accomodating, others were not that good (we needed a lot of flexibility because of the kids) but overall we had a really great experience. The value of the guides for us was more in terms of the logistics, finding a clean bathroom, communicating with the drivers for pick-up points, (normally they would drive you to one point and pick you up at another, so the guides are ready with their cell phones and the driver just materializes exactly as you are exiting the sites), it saves a lot of time, which is a precious commodity in our cases.
It seems like you have done your homework about the trip, wish you all the best and hope you have a great time!

PeterN_H

US agents have no clue whatsoever about the real cost of flying in China, and properly discounted tickets for the dates given should already be coming available or be available any day. The prices quoted are absurdly high.

As remarked in earlier discussion, you can book and plan everything in advance in China if you want to, but you'll be taken to the cleaners. It's entirely up to you, and I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but $1100 per person is daylight robbery.

Peter N-H

thursdaysd

I agree with Peter than $1100 per person for car, driver, guide and lunch is unconscionable. And why do you want a guide all the time? Using public transport is easy in Shanghai and Beijing and doable in Xi'an. Or you can arrange a car and driver through your hotel and take a good guide book or two.

rkkwan

Okay, let me see the actual fares for the flights:

4/8 HKG-KWL. HK$1,749, all-in on Hong Kong Express booked via zuji.com. That's $190. And likely to be a full-fare.

4/10 KWL-XIY. Full fare Y is 1,090RMB, or about $150 + tax of about $20.

4/13 XIY-SHA. Full fare Y is 1250RMB, but even booking now, you can get fares at 1,010 on yoee.com $140 + tax of about $20.

4/16 SHA-PEK. Full fare Y is 1,130RMB, but already there are at least 2 flights with fares of 680RMB available on yoee.com. $95 + tax of about $20.

So, total for 4 flights if have to booked firm today is as low as $635. So, I have to agree with Peter that $800 is high for these 4 flights. And again, closer to actual departure, you will get lower fares, especially for KWL-XIY and XIY-SHA, which don't show much discount at this time.

I didn't comment on the $1,100 tour fees earlier. I don't know exactly what kind of service and quality they're actually providing, but my first reaction is that $1,100 is a huge sum of money to pay for just guide/car/lunch and admissions.

From another angle, you're talking now about $1,900 per person not including lodging or airfare. For that price, you can go with a luxury tour from the US that has known, good, reputation.

sueblue

Thanks, everyone. I figured it was ridiculously high. About the flights though, there are very specific ones we would like. For instance, we want to fly:

Out of HK to Guilin at night (approx 7:30PM)

From Guilin to Xian as early as possible in the AM (I think the first flight is around 10AM)

From Xian to Shanghai at around 6PM

And from Shanghai to Beijing very early in the morning (8AM).

This allows us to maximize touring time given the number of days in each location. I looked at some of the discount online flight sites and found some discounted fares for some flights -- but not always the ones we wanted and not for all of the flights. (It appears that we would have to use more than one site to get the job done and it wouldn't be the full job ). I am also worried that if there is a cancellation or problem, there won't be as much flexibility with these tickets and very little recourse . . .

Shanghainese

sueblue -- just like most issues in the world, we can talk about itineraries, flights, lodgings, drivers, guides, etc, till we are blue in our faces, in the end it comes down to what you and your party are most comfortable with. Don't worry, be happy and have a wonderful trip!

sueblue

Thank you all for so many of your great suggestions, help and support. I am getting pretty excited because our departure date is just a couple of weeks away.

One last question . . . If we decide to bag the services of the tour operator altogehter and just hire a car and driver in each city directly from the hotel, would that be significantly cheaper?

PeterN_H

Yes. But it would also be the most expensive possible way of getting yourself around. Hotel cars can run as must as ¥1400 per day, whereas a taxi can be ¥300. Better still for in-town trips is just to jump in a cab from A to B. Then when you're ready another from B to C. Result unlikely to reach ¥100. Meter charges rise by 50% after a certain km threshold: 15k in Beijing but as little as 3km in some towns. There's no point in keeping the same vehicle for long periods.

And for longer full-day hires for out-of-town trips it's best just to negotiate an all-in day rate with taxis. But if you're not up for that then this is the time you should revert to the hotel option. Note that If the hotel transport desk is demanding ¥1000, then the chances are good someone at the front desk or the bellman or the concierge knows someone who'll take you for ¥500 (when it should really be ¥200). Best to get sight of the vehicle before accepting.

Peter N-H

PeterN_H

P.S. In Beijing you're much better to get around by subway. Far quicker for most of the day, and only ¥2 per trip.

info_wzg

Agree with discussion above mostly,3 addtional points could be considered: 1)city of China sequence you will visit would be ecnomic without redundancy on path.Beijing in,Guilin out to HK or Guilin in,Beijing out to HK is better;2)You can find reasonable rate and sevice on each city and obtain the detailed decription even to every senic spot photo you will visit from internet. Summary,to select China Optional Tours is better than China Package.

SoCal_traveler

Peter N_H:

I'm comfortable using cabs around town but what do you suggest for trips like Great Wall or the warriors in Xian? Is getting a cab and having them wait best? Or are they plentiful enough that we can just get another cab back to town? Is it worthwhile to have the hotel arrange a day tour? We're not interested in a complete group tour but we could see it being worthwhile for a day trip i.e. warriors, Great Wall, panda research center, etc.?

thursdaysd

For the warriors in Xi'an you can take a bus - they went from near the station when I did it, but you could check with your hotel. Coming back make sure you get the direct bus, mine did a detour through the villages - interesting, but not worth it if you're in a hurry.

ekscrunchy

Just to reiterate what PeterNH wrote above, if the price first quoted by the hotel for private car and driver seems high, let them know that you would like a better price. You may have to ask a few people at the front desk. For a day trip from Shanghai (to Xitang) my hotel first referred me to a big Shanghai travel agency who asked over $220 US for private car. The brochure of this agency was in the hotel. After refusing that option, the hotel front desk then offered a hotel car and driver. Still too costly. Finally, one of the concierges, "knew a driver." I paid less than half of the original price quoted and while probably far too high by local standards (and of course far higher than taking the bus) I saved quite a bit by not taking the first price. Sorry to be long-winded, but it might pay for you to keep my experience in mind.