"Blitz" Tour of Hangzhou?
Mar 21st, 2004, 12:22 PM
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"Blitz" Tour of Hangzhou?
In last minute fine-tuning of my itinerary for China (leaving in 2 weeks) I still haven't resolved whether to include Hangzhou. If I DID choose to go there it would have to be as a day trip from Shanghai.
I know that West Lake is supposed to be beautiful but is that alone worth the five to six hour transportation investment? Or would I be better served to further explore Shanghai? I have read a lot of posts on the web (especially Lonely Planet Thorn Tree BB) dumping on Shanghai saying, in effect, don't spend much time there. However, I'm leaning toward staying in Shanghai. Unlike many (romantics?), I am not at all repelled by either the modernity or hyper-urbanism. (For what it's worth, I love places such as Berlin precisely for these qualities.) Going to Hangzhou would give me only 2 and a half days in Shanghai.
Which option would you choose and why? (Thanks in advance for you opinions.)
I know that West Lake is supposed to be beautiful but is that alone worth the five to six hour transportation investment? Or would I be better served to further explore Shanghai? I have read a lot of posts on the web (especially Lonely Planet Thorn Tree BB) dumping on Shanghai saying, in effect, don't spend much time there. However, I'm leaning toward staying in Shanghai. Unlike many (romantics?), I am not at all repelled by either the modernity or hyper-urbanism. (For what it's worth, I love places such as Berlin precisely for these qualities.) Going to Hangzhou would give me only 2 and a half days in Shanghai.
Which option would you choose and why? (Thanks in advance for you opinions.)
Mar 21st, 2004, 01:56 PM
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I think 2.5 days is plenty for Shanghai itself (I was just there for the weekend), although Shanghai Museum deserves half a day in its own right. There's much pleasure to be had from the seeing sagging remains of European architecture along the Bund, in the old French Quarter, and the former Jewish ghetto. But two days is enough.
This isn't meant to imply that Hangzhou is worth the side trip, however. I think you'd get more pleasure out of visiting one of the three fairly well-known 'Venices of China' near Shanghai, of which some (Zhouzhuang) are more developed for tourism than others, but even at their worst no more so than Hangzhou.
Hangzhou's lake is pleasant enough, but not the stuff of dreams any more than, say, Beijing's Back Lakes or Kunming Lake at the Summer Palace. There's modernity and jerry-building around its shores as there is everywhere else in China, and numerous tour groups setting off in tacky ferries to visit Solitary Islet, etc. Hangzhou suffers from the Qianlong or Kangxi effect. Both emperors made lists of 'great sights' at a time when few beside themselves ever did much travelling. Each has become enshrined in the Chinese consciousness as the location of some best-in-the-world experience or other, a fact happily trotted out by anyone and everyone despite having never visited the places in question (let alone done so and made comparisons with others overseas). Now private travel is possible for a small percentage of the population, but still a remarkably large number of individuals, these imperially designated "must sees" are swamped, and their economies are generally centred around tourism, with all the bad side-effects of hamfisted restoration and general trickiness that implies.
I liked Hangzhou, but I know well that the more a place in China is hyped, the more it disappoints, so my expectations weren't great, and I had the pleasure of a few days in the Shangri-La there, one of China's best hotels. Had I merely come for the day trip I think I might have been quite unhappy.
If you want to get the best out of viewing the ancient European architecture in Shanghai, consider contacting Tess Johnston, an American long resident in the city who has produced several books on the remains of Western architecture in China, and does very entertaining guided tours. You can find information about her here:
http://shanghaipress.myrice.com.cn/index.htm
To my irritation I can't put my hand on her card at the moment, but her email address might be:
[email protected]
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
This isn't meant to imply that Hangzhou is worth the side trip, however. I think you'd get more pleasure out of visiting one of the three fairly well-known 'Venices of China' near Shanghai, of which some (Zhouzhuang) are more developed for tourism than others, but even at their worst no more so than Hangzhou.
Hangzhou's lake is pleasant enough, but not the stuff of dreams any more than, say, Beijing's Back Lakes or Kunming Lake at the Summer Palace. There's modernity and jerry-building around its shores as there is everywhere else in China, and numerous tour groups setting off in tacky ferries to visit Solitary Islet, etc. Hangzhou suffers from the Qianlong or Kangxi effect. Both emperors made lists of 'great sights' at a time when few beside themselves ever did much travelling. Each has become enshrined in the Chinese consciousness as the location of some best-in-the-world experience or other, a fact happily trotted out by anyone and everyone despite having never visited the places in question (let alone done so and made comparisons with others overseas). Now private travel is possible for a small percentage of the population, but still a remarkably large number of individuals, these imperially designated "must sees" are swamped, and their economies are generally centred around tourism, with all the bad side-effects of hamfisted restoration and general trickiness that implies.
I liked Hangzhou, but I know well that the more a place in China is hyped, the more it disappoints, so my expectations weren't great, and I had the pleasure of a few days in the Shangri-La there, one of China's best hotels. Had I merely come for the day trip I think I might have been quite unhappy.
If you want to get the best out of viewing the ancient European architecture in Shanghai, consider contacting Tess Johnston, an American long resident in the city who has produced several books on the remains of Western architecture in China, and does very entertaining guided tours. You can find information about her here:
http://shanghaipress.myrice.com.cn/index.htm
To my irritation I can't put my hand on her card at the moment, but her email address might be:
[email protected]
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Mar 21st, 2004, 04:36 PM
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Xie xie ni, Peter. As always, it is a pleasure to read your responses to the questions posted here.
I had given some thought to Zhouzhuang or one of the other less famous water villages. Some reports that I've read about how Disneyfied Zhouzhuang was did give me pause. Still, the descriptions in Frommer's Shanghai did make it sound rather appealing.
Do you include Suzhou among your "Venices of China" or were you just referring to the smaller "water towns"? I neglected to say that I was also spending some time in Suzhou, as my wife is a bit of a garden connoisseur. (Also, I wanted to explore the Grand Canal a bit.) And, hey, if I just gotta see a lake I suppose I could go a few more kilometers west of Suzhou and visit Lake Tai.
I had given some thought to Zhouzhuang or one of the other less famous water villages. Some reports that I've read about how Disneyfied Zhouzhuang was did give me pause. Still, the descriptions in Frommer's Shanghai did make it sound rather appealing.
Do you include Suzhou among your "Venices of China" or were you just referring to the smaller "water towns"? I neglected to say that I was also spending some time in Suzhou, as my wife is a bit of a garden connoisseur. (Also, I wanted to explore the Grand Canal a bit.) And, hey, if I just gotta see a lake I suppose I could go a few more kilometers west of Suzhou and visit Lake Tai.
Mar 22nd, 2004, 04:57 AM
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I was thinking of Tongli, which is only about 20km from Suzhou, but I only know it by reputation as a Zhouzhuang in the making but not there yet, and a lot quieter than Suzhou. And there's another whose name won't come into my head, but which has a good reputation, too. Wuzhen, is it?
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Mar 22nd, 2004, 11:53 AM
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Yes, Wuzheng is one of three that I've seen recommended as alternatives to Zhouzhuang. Tongli was another. (I'm spending enough time in Suzhou so that I might be able to make it there as an add-on to Suzhou.) The third one was Xitang to which I am giving serious consideration. (Ah, an embarassment of choices!) It sounds like it has very little tourist traffic, which is a positive. It is clearly looking for some, though. It has its own (pretty slick) Chinese/English web site:
http://www.xitang.com.cn/indexx.asp
In researching this, I found another web site that has very interesting profiles (with pictures) of six Jiangnan water towns:
http://www.shanghaifinance.com/attra.../watertown.htm
Minor aside: I wish these web sites (and many, many China guidebooks) would show accent marks when displaying names in Pinyin. Without them, I just can't figure out how to pronounce them with correct intonation. (One of the many reasons I like Peter's books so much is that they DO indeed provide this information. Well done!)
http://www.xitang.com.cn/indexx.asp
In researching this, I found another web site that has very interesting profiles (with pictures) of six Jiangnan water towns:
http://www.shanghaifinance.com/attra.../watertown.htm
Minor aside: I wish these web sites (and many, many China guidebooks) would show accent marks when displaying names in Pinyin. Without them, I just can't figure out how to pronounce them with correct intonation. (One of the many reasons I like Peter's books so much is that they DO indeed provide this information. Well done!)
Mar 24th, 2004, 02:54 PM
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I am interested in the water towns mentioned, particularly Xitang (I went to the website and it looks wonderful) and Wuzhow. We will be in Nanjing and then finishing our trip in Shanghai. Is it easy to get to these towns from either of these cities ? Thanks for the help.
Mar 24th, 2004, 06:01 PM
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I guess it kind of depends on how you define "easy." I think if you are willing to hire a taxi for the day, all are eminently "do-able" from Shanghai, albeit not cheap. (I believe they are all less than 2 hours away by car.) If you mean easily accessible via inexpensive public transport many probably are. However, the mixture of logistics (bus changes) and language challenges may lead you to draw a different conclusion. I don't doubt that many people go to Zhouzhuang because of the low hassle factor. There are several organized day tours there out of Shanghai and both the Lonely Planet and Frommer's guidebooks give good information on bus connections if you want to go completely on your own. However, I have yet to see any information in the major guidebooks on how to go to the other, less famous water towns. Some web sites may have this information. (Personally, I'm going to take the path of least resistance and hire a car and driver.)
Mar 26th, 2004, 03:35 AM
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Thanks for the info. I am definitely interested in the less popular water towns and will probably do the same and hire a car and driver. Do you have any estimate of what is a reasonable fare for a day trip like this ? Should it be comparable to a car and driver out of Beijing ?
Mar 27th, 2004, 06:56 PM
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> Do you have any estimate of what is a reasonable fare for a day trip like this ? Should it be comparable to a car and driver out of Beijing ? <
I haven't seen much in the way of estimates for these Shanghai-vicinity day trips. The few estimates that I have seen in print do seem to run about 20 to 30 percent higher than in Beijing. Of course, if you get your hotel travel desk involved the markup will be huge. As always, a lot depends on: a) your negotiation skills and b) your facility in Mandarin. I don't really want to exceed 600 yuan for the day. However, I don't know whether this is a reasonable "ceiling" or not. In Beijing, it certainly would be. However, I get the strong sense that Shanghai plays by a different set of rules. I guess I'll just have to run it by a few taxi drivers and see what I can come up with. (Crossing my fingers. . .)
I haven't seen much in the way of estimates for these Shanghai-vicinity day trips. The few estimates that I have seen in print do seem to run about 20 to 30 percent higher than in Beijing. Of course, if you get your hotel travel desk involved the markup will be huge. As always, a lot depends on: a) your negotiation skills and b) your facility in Mandarin. I don't really want to exceed 600 yuan for the day. However, I don't know whether this is a reasonable "ceiling" or not. In Beijing, it certainly would be. However, I get the strong sense that Shanghai plays by a different set of rules. I guess I'll just have to run it by a few taxi drivers and see what I can come up with. (Crossing my fingers. . .)
Mar 27th, 2004, 07:05 PM
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It's simple economics. The per km rate of Shanghai taxis is higher than Beijing and the drivers of more expensive cabs do not face competition from cheaper ones driving down their income, as they are all the same price. Talking to some Shanghai taxi drivers a few weeks ago they seemed reasonably content with the level of work they were getting, and were working shorter hours than their Beijing brethren.
Certainly never pay more than the km rate times the number of km to be travelled, and you should be well under that, plus any road tolls not already covered by any monthly permit that driver may have paid for.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Certainly never pay more than the km rate times the number of km to be travelled, and you should be well under that, plus any road tolls not already covered by any monthly permit that driver may have paid for.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
